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goingeast
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

[ Edited ]
I was intrigued by the conversation the three children were having about Miss Prince. I think this whole conversation is foreshadowing events to follow in some way. I think it will be important to remember how Hannah feels about Miss Prince's lover leaving her for her sister. Somehow, I think this will be important later. The recurring theme of sisters, Miss Prince and her sister, Hannah and her sister Emmeline, is not just a coincidence in this story( see p. 33). For some reason, I think the following line by Hannah is an element of foreshadowing..." Romance makes people forget themselves, do silly things." It's odd ,though, that such a philosophical and worldly comment would come out of a girl who is only 14 years old. How much romantic experience could Hannah possibly have? Who is she referring to? I guess we'll find out soon enough!

Ann(goingeast)

Sorry, I just realized this was a section from The Nursery, Ch. 3 not Waiting for the Recital, but nevertheless...

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 01:07 PM

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 01:14 PM
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momgee
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital



Ophelia123 wrote:


Bonnie824 wrote:
"This struck me too as extremely important. I truly think that Frederick is Grace's father. Maybe this is one of the reasons he is the least favored son. br>
Kaye"




I should have read ahead before posting the same thought Kaye. I don't think his parents knew though. If they did, I can't imagine they wouldn't at least have provided some money. And not been comfortable having their own grand-daughter as a maid.

Bonnie




It seems though maybe that was their way of "helping" Grace. Or they knew about Fredrick and the maid but, never knew which maid it was.




I think they knew which maid and that is why Grace's mother left Riverton. Remember the cook saying she hadn't done something that hadn't been done 1000 times before. In those days, if a girl "got herself in trouble" it was her problem The family didn't want the disgrace of it known but it seems over the years someone was helping her out. Maybe Grace's mother knew they would give Grace employment. It is payback. Just writing the word disgrace makes me wonder if her mother named her Grace for a reason. Anyone else wonder that?

kaye
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CrystalVan
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital



nfam wrote:


COCOSPALS wrote:
What intrigued me about the section on the Recital is where Grace finds the rules of the game. On page 48, the author outlines Rule #3: only three may play. And the references to the triangle. This really peaked my interest. Anyone who knows anything about hockey knows about the triangle and how if one point of the triangle moves, the other two move accordingly all the while keeping the triangle. My gut feeling is that somehow as the book progresses, the three: David, Hannah and Emmeline, will come to the centerpoint of the goings-on. The integrity of the triangle, their closeness, will either remain in tact or one point of the triangle, one of them, will break apart the triangle. Should be interesting to see how that plays out.

Have a question....did I miss the discussion thread for the Nursery? The first was Ghosts Stir and the Drawing Room and suddenly we skipped over the Nursery and moved onto the recital





I also wonder what happened to the nursery. I thought that was an important chapter. We learned a great deal about Grace. Are we going to come back to this chapter. I think it's important in our understanding of Grace's relationship with the children.




Perhaps Grace is related to the children given all the intrigue about her mother no longer working at the Manor and the unusual comment about something that "hasn't been done a thousand times before..."
Crystal V.
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Kourt
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

Wow, I finally got through most of the post. It sounds like most of us are on the same page. I thought right away Grace had to be related to the family some how.

Also, I was wondering where is the Hartford chidlren mother? I can only recall her being called the Mistress.
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GMorrison
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

I too had my suspicions that Grace was an illegitimate daughter strengthened by Frederick's reaction to her the first time he caught sight of her.

I wonder, though, if Grace's presence at the house is someone's idea of revenge. After all, assuming Frederick is the father, you think he'd be aware that his child had spent the past fourteen years growing up in the nearby village. So why is he so surprised to see her there, unless her position in the house was offered to her without anyone notifying him.

I also wonder, given the massive social changes taking place during the time period during which the book is sent, whether tensions will develop between Grace's father (or other relative) and the rest of the family over whether to officially include her as a family member, or whether Grace herself might agitate to receive acknowledgement as a family member.

If so, the scandal the last could produce might have led to the ostracization of young Ruth, which could have led to the tensions between them.
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BetteKidd
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital/the Game

I think The Game is similar to Dungeons and Dragons that kids used to play...or any role playing games that are popular now. They are all in the imagination but sometimes they get out of control. Remember the kids who went into a sewer or something like that and had a real gun battle; then later they said they were playing Dungeons and Dragons. Bette
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BetteKidd
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

Does anyone think it unusual that the 18 year old brother would still be "playing with" his little sisters. I teach high school and have no students who would be doing that. Bette
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

Not particularly. This is still an era before the onset of the first World War - children stayed home for much longer and evening entertainment could still consist of playing games of charades with the adults. This early in the story David is only 16 - two years older than Hannah and Grace - and seems to have been at Eton only a few years.



BetteKidd wrote:
Does anyone think it unusual that the 18 year old brother would still be "playing with" his little sisters. I teach high school and have no students who would be doing that. Bette


Melissa W.
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vivico1
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital


COCOSPALS wrote:


Have a question....did I miss the discussion thread for the Nursery? The first was Ghosts Stir and the Drawing Room and suddenly we skipped over the Nursery and moved onto the recital


There is a thread on the nursery,yes.
Vivian
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vivico1
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital


BetteKidd wrote:
Does anyone think it unusual that the 18 year old brother would still be "playing with" his little sisters. I teach high school and have no students who would be doing that. Bette


It was not so unusual for the time or where you may not have nearby neighbors to play with. In rural towns in America, you and your siblings are best friends, play pals because there are not kids close enough for you to walk to and parents aren't going to drive you back and forth every day. The problem is finding something that all of you can play whatever your age and still have fun or be interesting. These kids have "The Game".
Vivian
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vivico1
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital


kiakar wrote:


KxBurns wrote:
If Grace's own mother is, according to Mrs. Townsend, "Guilty of nothing that ain't been done a thousand times before," (p. 53) does that means that she was perhaps not married to the man who disappeared before Grace was born?

Grace's comparison of Lady Clementine and Fanny to a brandy balloon and a champagne flute is hilarious! And did anyone else catch that Grace notes her own imagination has been informed by Gothic novels?

Wow, now I'm dying to know how the mysterious Game figures in "What happened in the end..." (p.49)?





As Grace is remembering the past, she saids that when Mr. Frederick glances up at her, he looks as if he has seen a ghost. Does Grace remind him of her mother?


Kiakar, since you bring that up first here on this thread I will add my thoughts to yours. I think you really got something there about Frederick looking at her like he had seen a ghost. Maybe she does look a lot like her mother. I do think its quite possible that Frederick is her father.

Along those lines tho, I read all the other threads, (up till this SECOND lol) and I disagree with those who think that may be why she had to leave, that they made her leave because they knew. As someone mentioned but not with that thought, why would they have the daughter of a woman who had this illegitimate child of his come back to work for them. They wouldnt! They dont know whose it is, I think of course they just knew that she was pregnant. The cook I am wondering about how much she knows tho. She says poor thing, she didn't do anything that hasnt been done before and Grace thinks she had an affection for her mother, but I am wondering if the cook knows more than that Grace's mother had an illegitimate baby, I get the feeling she may know by who too.

The other thing that makes me think he is, and also that the pattern may have repeated itself,is, remember in the first two chapters, when Grace puts on the locket and Ruth is glad to see her wearing it thinking it is from her father, but we dont think it really is from John but maybe from a lover and so she says something about how easily the young ones accept the little lies, or something like that? I think she told Ruth, the locket was from her father but it wasnt. I think Grace's mother told her that her father ran off, when he didn't. He's a member of the Riverton household, probably Frederick! Grace at this age (98) may even know that, and thats why she said that, not only about her own daughter, but because of her own life as a young girl believing a lie about her father. Maybe both generations of mothers love their girls but are a bit distant from them out of their own guilt.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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goingeast
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

[ Edited ]
It seems to me that Ruth has much in common with her Grandmother, Grace's mother, in that she is cold and aloof. On page 34. Grace tells her mother she wanted a sibling. Her response is one of the most horrific things I have ever read in literature..."said she wasn't given to making the same mistake twice." She called her daughter a MISTAKE! Right to her face even. That's very cold-hearted. Even if she felt that way she didn't need to let her daughter know it. It's not like she could run to her father and cry. As far as we know Grace doesn't have anyone she turned to when she needed to cry. Perhaps this is why she felt some sort of bond with Hannah, Emmeline, and David. I think she had a crush on David from the moment she saw him too.

As for Marcus, he probably ran off into anonymity because of his awful mother.

There is another mention of sisters in this 4th chapter on p. 41...Grace says that her father materializes..."only in hot whispered exchanges between Mother and her sister."


I wonder why so many references to sisters? Is there something special about the relationship between sister? I have three brothers, and believe me, they were so much fun I never wanted a sister. But it seems to be an important element of this novel.

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 04:00 PM
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IBIS
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital



goingeast wrote:
I wonder why so many references to sisters? Is there something special about the relationship between sister? I have three brothers, and believe me, they were so much fun I never wanted a sister. But it seems to be an important element of this novel.

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 04:00 PM




There definitely is an important element of the sisterly bond... it's a recurring motif..

There's Miss Prince and her sister, who ran off with her fiancee...makes you wonder what other sister will run away with a fiancee?

There's Grace's mother and HER sister who whisper and are unsympathetic with Grace's presence...

Then there are Hannah and Emmeline, who according to the backcover, were both lover and fiancee of the dead poet, Robbie Hunter.

And finally, if as many of us suspect, Mr. Frederick is Grace's father, Grace is presumably then a sister of Hannah, Emmeline and David as well. Hence the family resemblance that we've commented on.

IBIS
IBIS

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goingeast
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

[ Edited ]

IBIS wrote:

I wonder if as many of us suspect, Mr. Frederick is Grace's father, Grace is presumably then a sister of Hannah, Emmeline and David as well. Hence the family resemblance that we've commented on.

IBIS





Where is the resemblence mentioned, I didn't read that.
Even though I speculated that Frederick may be Grace's father, it doesn't seem likely. Remember the book says he turned pale when his eyes came to her balcony, not when his eyes met hers. Perhaps there was someone else on that balcony that caused him to turn pale????

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 04:51 PM

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 04:51 PM
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kdenisse86
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital



MissyJoon wrote:


KxBurns wrote:
The first thing that caught my attention in this chapter was Grace's remark: "You see? Already I had fallen under the spell of the Hartford children." This is an interjection by current-day Grace, not an observation from the point of view of 14 year-old Grace, leading me to conclude that the spell of the Hartford children is one that enthralls Grace for many years to come.

The chapter brings up several issues of fatherhood/motherhood:
- What tragedy befell the Major and his wife in regard to their children?
- Where is the Hartford children's mother?
- If Grace's own mother is, according to Mrs. Townsend, "Guilty of nothing that ain't been done a thousand times before," (p. 53) does that means that she was perhaps not married to the man who disappeared before Grace was born?

Grace's comparison of Lady Clementine and Fanny to a brandy balloon and a champagne flute is hilarious! And did anyone else catch that Grace notes her own imagination has been informed by Gothic novels?

Wow, now I'm dying to know how the mysterious Game figures in "What happened in the end..." (p.49)?




I have this strange feeling that Grace is Mr. Frederick's daughter. Perhaps that is why she has such an intrinsic affection for the children, and why Mr. Frederick is so keen on her presence.



I agree with momgee and MissyJoon, maybe Grace's father is either Major Jonathan or Mr. Frederick. The whole thing about Grace's mother doing nothing that had not been done a thousand times before and the hushed mentions of Grace's father in conversations make sense that way, I would think.
"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." ~Walden, Henry David Thoreau.
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Kat727
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

I never thought about one of the sons being Grace's father. Looking at the points brought up and details in the book it makes sense. The game is very inventive, but also seems kind of strange. Plus that line in the book: "What happened in the end would surely not have come about without it." It's driving me crazy how could the game tie into a death.
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goingeast
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

[ Edited ]

Kat727 wrote:
The game is very inventive, but also seems kind of strange. Plus that line in the book: "What happened in the end would surely not have come about without it." It's driving me crazy how could the game tie into a death.





Any game can go too far when one player doesn't know his/her limits. When Hannah hides Emmeline, she pushed the limit of that game too far, even if she was just trying to get the attention of her father. And what punishment did she get for scaring everyone. And WHERE IS THEIR MOTHER, GOSHDARNIT! Who's supervising these kids, anyway?

Message Edited by goingeast on 01-04-2008 05:05 PM
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital



TheSleepyReader wrote:
I have this strange feeling that Grace is Mr. Frederick's daughter. Perhaps that is why she has such an intrinsic affection for the children, and why Mr. Frederick is so keen on her presence.




This is the same feeling I have had right from the beginning.





I got that feeling too when I read the line about "his face paled as if he had seen a ghost" But then I also think he could have been startled because maybe Grace looked very much like her mother looked when she was in service at Riverton. Mr. Frederick lived at Rivewrton when Grace's mother was in service there.
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital

[ Edited ]

goingeast wrote:
I thought the Major didn't have any children but we haven't found out why yet. I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks this but The Game sounds rather boring in concept. Unless there is more to it than has been mentioned so far. Also, it's hard to imagine that David,a boy of 16, would be willing to play this game with his sisters.





I think The Game would be appealing to older teens just as Dungeons and Dragons was and video games are now. From what I've read in this chapter, it seemed to involve creating and taking part in many fantasy adventures.
Librarian

Message Edited by Librarian on 01-04-2008 07:47 PM
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krenea1
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Re: PART ONE: Waiting for the Recital



Popper19 wrote:
The two main things I'm intrigued about in this chapter are why Frederick looked at Grace like a ghost and what Grace's mum did that had been done many times before. I feel these two are related (what did Grace's mom do with Frederick - produce Grace?). This is my initial gut reaction to this chapter. Can't wait to read on.




I had the same reaction. Someone else pointed out in the Nursey posts that the Asbury children had a resemblance and that Hannah told Grace she looked familiar.
Karen Renea

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