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vivico1
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole


KxBurns wrote:
It is 1921 in Grace's thoughts, and Teddy has followed his father's footsteps. I can imagine how bitter I would be if I were Hannah... And then later in the chapter, I was astonished to find that Teddy had been a Nazi sympathizer!

On page 294, Grace openly disagrees with Hannah about seeing the fortune teller, but Hannah does not listen. I believe she values Grace's opinion, but I wonder if she must exert her free will over the only person she can? As a result, Grace becomes not just Hannah's maid but her guardian, following her in secret. What did the fortune teller say that left Hannah so ashen, I wonder?

In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Finally, as the chapter ends, the line between past and present becomes blurry for Grace. Her movement back and forth between the two is no longer voluntary.

What did you think of this chapter?

Karen


I think "Down the Rabbit Hole" is a perfect name for this chapter. With Teddy obviously getting involved with Hitler at this time,which will be seen as disastrous once Hitler really gets going and his true nature and ideas come out later, and Grace having to become Hannah's guardian over this ridiculous fortune teller stuff, and as you say, the lines between the past and the present becoming blurry for Grace, this really is like Alice in Wonderland! All kinds of things that dont make sense and people and places!
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Iulievich
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole


KxBurns wrote:
But your comments made me wonder whether Hannah's dissatisfaction stems from not being able to have the adventurous life she craves or from a general tendency toward a constant, insatiable longing for more?



What about Frederick? Did he seem to be particularly satisfied to accept things as they were? A potentially ruinous affair (we think) with one of his parents' family servants? What about all his business ventures? A little Quixotic, perhaps?

Remember when he refused to adopt assemly-line methods to save his aircraft/automobile factory and instead insisted on continuing to produce according to a quality standard that met his concept of what was proper?

When he so quickly released Grace to Hannah's service after Hannah's marriage, was it because he really had no continuing need for a lady's maid? (What about Emmeline? There is no mention of her having a lady's maid at that time.) Or was he so dismissive of Grace because he was tired of being reminded (presumably) that he had another daughter?

How much of our attitude toward the world do we inherit from our parents?
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an action but a habit." -Aristotle
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Tarri
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole


KxBurns wrote:
In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Karen




Sylvia has worked at the retirement home for much longer than she has had the boyfriend. As I read the story she is devoted to Grace even telling Grace at the beginning of the book about her new boyfriend. I don't think that Sylvia is exploiting Grace for the the sake of her boyfriend's project, although it is possible that Anthony is using Sylvia to get access to Grace.
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ezraSid
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

I don't thinks so much that Teddy was a "nazi sympathizer" so much as the world wasn't shown the whole picture early on. The supposed strides that were being made in the workforce, they certainly had the world fooled for quite some time before Hitler's true workings were brought to light. It did not say that Teddy agreed with any of the attrocities that were committed, but only that he had interest in the labor and work relations, the increase in production and output in industry. Teddy was a businessman, and it stated that people didn't know that the increasein production was due to slave labor. I don't think it was the political party he was interested in, but the business bottom line that he was seeing.

I really did not like Sylvia's boyfriend. He seems like a gold digger, digging for anything he can capture on film and then exploit. I don't think his interest is so much in history as in gossip.

I was really upset that sylvia and her boyfriend upset Grace to the point that she becomes seriously ill. I hope this gives Grace pause for thought where Sylvia is concerned. I was happy to see Sylvia show remorse for her actions, but I can't help but wonder, is it true or is she worried about consequences of her actions?
~Grace~
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ezraSid
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole



Iulievich wrote:

KxBurns wrote:
On page 294, Grace openly disagrees with Hannah about seeing the fortune teller, but Hannah does not listen. I believe she values Grace's opinion, but I wonder if she must exert her free will over the only person she can? As a result, Grace becomes not just Hannah's maid but her guardian, following her in secret. What did the fortune teller say that left Hannah so ashen, I wonder?

Karen



Could it be that at this point in her story Hannah is beginning to play The Game again -- albeit in a darker, more adult version? It seems pretty clear that she is looking for escape from the consequences of her choice of Teddy.

If only there had not been the war! Would there not have been a more suitable match for someone like Hannah? Surely there would have been some honorable and imaginative young man for her instead of this creature who not only stayed behind when others ventured out but who turned the whole thing to his personal profit!

But those potential soulmates all lie "in Flanders' fields where poppies grow."

And so in the end it was Teddy.

Nevertheless, by training, inheritance, position, and inclination Hannah has never been one to be long content with whatever humdrum life might dish up.

Message Edited by Iulievich on 01-12-2008 03:22 AM





I think had the war not happened, perhaps the family would not have had to depend on Hannah "making a good marriage". Lord Ashbury would probably still be alive, or at least his son David would have been the heir, and the story would have had to take a whole different twist.
~Grace~
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wendyroba
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

I believe it is in this chapter that Grace's memories are written in the present tense - a change from the past tense. This struck me immediately - and I think it was intentional to show that the past was now intruding clearly on Grace's present...that she no longer could separate the two.

Wendy
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isugirl
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

A few thoughts I found interesting in this chapter:

1. I loved the line on page 295 after Hannah had chosen to visit a psychic "Only people unhappy in the present seek to know the future." How true this was for Hannah!

2. I found it interesting that Lucy Starling was brought up again. Could this had been Hannah's life had she chosen not to marry Teddy? Alfred noted all the jobs now in London. Had Hannah been patient, would she have found her adventure on her own?

3. I too was very disappointed in Teddy's involvement with Hitler. What a schmuck! :smileyhappy:
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JoyZ
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

I was not shocked that Teddy had been a Nazi sympathizer because I felt Hilter was just coming into power and that he hadn't committed any atrocities yet.

I liked the line about there being a chasm between Teddy's ambitions and his actions - just like Frederick, wouldn't you say? I think they were both good men that got caught up with being pressured by their families and how those sacrifices to family changed their lives.

I'm anxious to find out how the fire at Riverton started.
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cocospals
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

What a great chapter! I have so many sticky notes I don't know where to begin. There are several references and a bit of pressure on Hannah to bear a child. There is a lot of discussion about Alfred. Coming to visit, visiting her mother and concerned about Grace having a friend in London but then betrayal takes place when she misses her date with alfred and he contacts Lucy....will this turn into something. I was shocked to see the reference to Riverton burning, kind of surprised me, will this be examined further.
Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there - John Wooden
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Choisya
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole



lamorgan wrote:
And what is Teddy doing running for politics in England when he is an American?




You might like to know that the first woman elected to the British Parliament was an American from Virginia - Nancy Viscountess Astor:smileyhappy::-

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/parliamentary_archives/archives___t...

Teddy could have run as long as he had resided here for the requisite number of years.
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Choisya
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole


lamorgan wrote:
And what is Teddy doing running for politics in England when he is an American?




You might like to know that the first woman elected to the British Parliament was an American from Virginia - Nancy Viscountess Astor:smileyhappy::-

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/parliamentary_archives/archives___t...

Teddy could have run as long as he had resided here for the requisite number of years.
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AllieK
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole



KxBurns wrote:
It is 1921 in Grace's thoughts, and Teddy has followed his father's footsteps. I can imagine how bitter I would be if I were Hannah... And then later in the chapter, I was astonished to find that Teddy had been a Nazi sympathizer!

On page 294, Grace openly disagrees with Hannah about seeing the fortune teller, but Hannah does not listen. I believe she values Grace's opinion, but I wonder if she must exert her free will over the only person she can? As a result, Grace becomes not just Hannah's maid but her guardian, following her in secret. What did the fortune teller say that left Hannah so ashen, I wonder?

In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Finally, as the chapter ends, the line between past and present becomes blurry for Grace. Her movement back and forth between the two is no longer voluntary.

What did you think of this chapter?

Karen





Karen, I like how you say "Her movement back and forth between the two is no longer voluntary"..that is so true in this chapter and I had been waiting for that to happen. Her past and present seem to know have merged in to one.

I was really surprised of the scene of Grace talking to Sylvia's boyfriend. I didn't expect this at all. It made me questions Sylvia's friendship by allowing it to happen.

Grace does seem to becoming more a friend and not just a lady's maid now. She is willing to speak her mind when needed to help/save Hannah in serious circumstances. The fortune teller had to have told her something not so good, because wouldn't you think if it was good Hannah would have shared it with Grace at that time??

I am loving this book...more and more is coming out..and I can't wait to see what's next!

Allison
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Choisya
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Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole : Teddy & Nazism

KxBurns wrote:
And then later in the chapter, I was astonished to find that Teddy had been a Nazi sympathizer!

When I saw in the Author's Note that she had read the Letters of Nancy Mitford and Evelyn Waugh I thought there might be a reference to the Nazi sympathies of Nancy Mitford's family. Her father Lord Redesdale was a well known Nazi sympathiser and financial supporter and in 1936 her sister Diana married the leader of the British Fascist Party, Sir Oswald Mosley, in Goebbels Drawing Room, where it was witnessed by Hitler. He and Diana were imprisoned during the war because of their Nazi sympathies. Her sister Unity not only supported Hitler but attended and spoke at a Nuremberg Rally and was also thought to be in love with, or even a lover of, Hitler. In 1935 she wrote 'England for the English! Push Out the Jews!' in a letter to a notorious anti-semite. When England declared war on Germany in 1939 she shot herself in the head with a pistol supposedly given to her by Hitler and suffered lasting brain damage after being brought home to England.

These fascist sympathisers (and others) were supporting Hitler and Moseley even though Hitler had written Mein Kampf in 1923, wherein his obnoxious views about the Jews and other races were spelt out and when German Nazi party thugs were already attacking Jews, Homosexuals, Communists, Gipsies etc in the streets with the slogan 'Lebensunwertes leven' (life unworthy of life:smileysad:.) (One of my earliest memories is of my father coming home covered in blood after a fight with Moseley's 'blackshirts' on the streets of Sheffield in 1934:smileysad:).

So Kate Morton's mention of Teddy as a Nazi sympathiser is mild compared with what was actually going on in British society:smileysad:.

(Nancy Mitford - not a fascist - was a well known British comic author and her essay Noblesse Oblige helped to publicise the now well-known (at least in the UK) parameters of English linguistic usage and behaviour, known as U-and-non-U.)




KxBurns wrote:
It is 1921 in Grace's thoughts, and Teddy has followed his father's footsteps. I can imagine how bitter I would be if I were Hannah... And then later in the chapter, I was astonished to find that Teddy had been a Nazi sympathizer!

On page 294, Grace openly disagrees with Hannah about seeing the fortune teller, but Hannah does not listen. I believe she values Grace's opinion, but I wonder if she must exert her free will over the only person she can? As a result, Grace becomes not just Hannah's maid but her guardian, following her in secret. What did the fortune teller say that left Hannah so ashen, I wonder?

In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Finally, as the chapter ends, the line between past and present becomes blurry for Grace. Her movement back and forth between the two is no longer voluntary.

What did you think of this chapter?

Karen


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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole


Choisya wrote:

lamorgan wrote:
And what is Teddy doing running for politics in England when he is an American?




You might like to know that the first woman elected to the British Parliament was an American from Virginia - Nancy Viscountess Astor:smileyhappy::-

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/parliamentary_archives/archives___t...

Teddy could have run as long as he had resided here for the requisite number of years.


well, that one was one of the long ones that now we have to use the slide bar at the bottom to read back and forth back and forth through all the the post on this thread, because it stretched every post on this thread now to the length of the link. crudd. I know we have a thread devoted to special links now too! I thought that was nice of Karen to make one for us.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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gosox
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Registered: ‎10-14-2007
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

I could not help but think of Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass when I saw the chapter title and read the passages about Hannah seeking her fortune and Grace's comments about photographs.

After considering Hannah's actions, Grace comments that "only people unhappy in the present seek to know the future." (295)That certainly seems to describe Hannah, an unhappy young woman in a loveless marriage.

I also found Grace's observations about photography and photographs a bit disconcerting and was wondering if anyone else was bothered by the comment. "Photographs force us to see people before their future weighed them down, before they knew their endings." (301)
If I am correct, Grace has detailed two photographs of the Riverton staff and family. The first taken in the midst of the family's grieving over the Major's and Lord Ashbury's deaths, the second the photo that was taken during her mother's service.
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EbonyAngel
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole



Tarri wrote:

KxBurns wrote:
In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Karen




Sylvia has worked at the retirement home for much longer than she has had the boyfriend. As I read the story she is devoted to Grace even telling Grace at the beginning of the book about her new boyfriend. I don't think that Sylvia is exploiting Grace for the the sake of her boyfriend's project, although it is possible that Anthony is using Sylvia to get access to Grace.




That was my take, more that Anthony was using Sylvia. Maybe he was hoping to get Grace to say something like it seemed Keira did with her questioning.
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KxBurns
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Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole



EbonyAngel wrote:


Tarri wrote:

KxBurns wrote:
In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Karen




Sylvia has worked at the retirement home for much longer than she has had the boyfriend. As I read the story she is devoted to Grace even telling Grace at the beginning of the book about her new boyfriend. I don't think that Sylvia is exploiting Grace for the the sake of her boyfriend's project, although it is possible that Anthony is using Sylvia to get access to Grace.




That was my take, more that Anthony was using Sylvia. Maybe he was hoping to get Grace to say something like it seemed Keira did with her questioning.



Interesting how Anthony is digging for dirt on Teddy, and is totally blind to the goldmine of family dirt he has in Grace. Not that she would ever tell :smileyhappy:
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paula_02912
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Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

Karen, I thought that this chapter was entitled, Down the Rabbit Hole..." I immediately thought of Alice in Wonderland. I guess it was a perfect title because Grace's perspective does shrink as the chapter progresses to the point where it seems as if her life was flashing before her eyes...like Alice, she was very disoriented, not knowing the difference between what was real (in the present moment) and what was not...

One other thing that I noticed in this chapter, is that the reader started to see signs of how Hannah's character was changing from that of a rebellious young woman...it seemed like the fight had gone out of her...the "scene" where Lady Clementine and Fanny were trying to give her not so subtle hints about having a family supports this feeling that I have...on page 293...Lady Clementine keeps going on and on about how it would seem if she didn't get pregnant...when she suggests that there were doctors for that sort of thing...problems downstairs...but Hannah doesn't respond...according to Grace's memory, she "could have told them to mind their business, and once would have, but time had been rubbing at her edges. So she said nothing...just smiled and silently willed them to leave..." This was definitely not the same Hannah that we saw in the earlier parts of the book....
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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nfam
Posts: 231
Registered: ‎01-08-2007
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

This chapter seems to have a great deal of intentional and unintentional cruelty. Sylvia leaves Grace alone in the sun. She doesn't check to make sure her charge is doing all right and in fact Grace is tired of waiting, thirsty and really shouldn't have been left alone that long. Sylvia also takes advantage of Grace when she tried to get her to talk to her boyfriend. The boyfriend is even more gauche. Grace is obviously tired and he keeps pressing her for details of her life at Riverton. Finally Grace succumbs to the heat and has to be taken away in an ambulance. It's frightening that they don't seem to see her as a real person. She thinks perhaps Marcus will, I hope so.

Nancy
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole



KxBurns wrote:


EbonyAngel wrote:


Tarri wrote:

KxBurns wrote:
In the modern day narrative, I couldn't help but feel that Sylvia was exploiting Grace a little bit for the sake of her boyfriend's project, selling out the secrets of the person she should have been protecting. Did you feel the same way?

Karen




Sylvia has worked at the retirement home for much longer than she has had the boyfriend. As I read the story she is devoted to Grace even telling Grace at the beginning of the book about her new boyfriend. I don't think that Sylvia is exploiting Grace for the the sake of her boyfriend's project, although it is possible that Anthony is using Sylvia to get access to Grace.




That was my take, more that Anthony was using Sylvia. Maybe he was hoping to get Grace to say something like it seemed Keira did with her questioning.



Interesting how Anthony is digging for dirt on Teddy, and is totally blind to the goldmine of family dirt he has in Grace. Not that she would ever tell :smileyhappy:




This was my take also. From the beginning Sylvia seemed to be very fond of Grace. I dont think she set out of hurt her.
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