PART THREE: Down the Rabbit Hole

[kiakar]

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nfam wrote:
This chapter seems to have a great deal of intentional and unintentional cruelty. Sylvia leaves Grace alone in the sun. She doesn't check to make sure her charge is doing all right and in fact Grace is tired of waiting, thirsty and really shouldn't have been left alone that long. Sylvia also takes advantage of Grace when she tried to get her to talk to her boyfriend. The boyfriend is even more gauche. Grace is obviously tired and he keeps pressing her for details of her life at Riverton. Finally Grace succumbs to the heat and has to be taken away in an ambulance. It's frightening that they don't seem to see her as a real person. She thinks perhaps Marcus will, I hope so.

Nancy

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It did seem in a way that Sylvia wasn't being as attendive as she should have been with Grace. I guess she got caught up in all the excitement of her boyfriend.

[kmliska]

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lamorgan wrote:
This chapter seems to reveal that Teddy is perhaps too attached to his family and not able to make a complete commitment to Hannah. He seems to take their side over hers and allows his family to dictate how they should live. If Teddy had more of a backbone, perhaps Hannah's "like" for him could have turned to love eventually.

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I agree with you. I think Teddy just goes along with what the family wants. It seems as if Hannah is a necessity. He must have a wife but he is still devoted to his family and their goals. I think their relationship would be much different if he was a little more independent and did what was right for him and Hannah.

[kmliska]

I may be wrong but I didn't really think Sylvia was exploiting Grace. I don't think it was planned since it was a group trip. I think it just worked out that they were both there and Sylvia knew that her boyfriend would like to talk to her. I also think she may have been excited to introduce Grace to her boyfriend. She was very excited when she was telling her about him in the beginning of the book.
I wasn't happy when Grace decided to follow Hannah. I know that She doesn't end up with Alfred but I cant help but wish that they do. I would rather have seen her stay and meet him on time. I can understand that she feels she needs to make sure that Hannah isn't in danger since but it seems like Grace's own life is being put aside for Hannah's.

[maude40]

I'm again taken by Ms. Morton's wonderful descriptions. on page 291 Grace's old age jumps off the page. "I claw my fingers around the armrest, lean so that my elbow digs my ribs and push myself upwards, hugging the rail. I hover for a moment, then transfer my weight to my cane, waiting for the landscape to stand still."

On page 298 more evidence that Grace is probably Frederick's daughter. "Gone all gloomy since you left. Must've had a soft spot for you, eh?"

Loved the second paragraph on page 301 that describes photography. In the next paragraph Grace says, "If I didn't know better, I'd think there was a fifth person in the photo, behind the haze." Who would that be?
Yvonne

[KxBurns]

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nfam wrote:
This chapter seems to have a great deal of intentional and unintentional cruelty. Sylvia leaves Grace alone in the sun. She doesn't check to make sure her charge is doing all right and in fact Grace is tired of waiting, thirsty and really shouldn't have been left alone that long. Sylvia also takes advantage of Grace when she tried to get her to talk to her boyfriend. The boyfriend is even more gauche. Grace is obviously tired and he keeps pressing her for details of her life at Riverton. Finally Grace succumbs to the heat and has to be taken away in an ambulance. It's frightening that they don't seem to see her as a real person. She thinks perhaps Marcus will, I hope so.

Nancy

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Nancy, I love your idea of unintentional cruelty. What other instances of unintentional cruelty have we seen in the book thus far? How much culpability does one bear when he/she is unintentionally cruel?

[KxBurns]

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maude40 wrote:
I'm again taken by Ms. Morton's wonderful descriptions. on page 291 Grace's old age jumps off the page. "I claw my fingers around the armrest, lean so that my elbow digs my ribs and push myself upwards, hugging the rail. I hover for a moment, then transfer my weight to my cane, waiting for the landscape to stand still."

On page 298 more evidence that Grace is probably Frederick's daughter. "Gone all gloomy since you left. Must've had a soft spot for you, eh?"

Loved the second paragraph on page 301 that describes photography. In the next paragraph Grace says, "If I didn't know better, I'd think there was a fifth person in the photo, behind the haze." Who would that be?
Yvonne

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Yvonne, I believe she's referring to Robbie because she follows the statement you highlighted with this: "There's not of course. There are no photos of Robbie at Riverton. He only came the two times."

Karen

[dhaupt]

KxBurns wrote:
Nancy, I love your idea of unintentional cruelty. What other instances of unintentional cruelty have we seen in the book thus far? How much culpability does one bear when he/she is unintentionally cruel?
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Karen,
It would take two pages to note all of the unintentional cruelty in the book, but to paraphrase:
Grace's treatment of Ruth & Alfred. Grace's mothers treatment of her. Frederick's treatment of his children. Teddy's treatment of Hannah. And I can go on.
As far as culpability goes I think if it was done out of ignorance then no. But if it was out of indifference then yes.

Message Edited by dhaupt on 01-21-2008 09:40 AM

[fordmg]

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lamorgan wrote:
This chapter seems to reveal that Teddy is perhaps too attached to his family and not able to make a complete commitment to Hannah. He seems to take their side over hers and allows his family to dictate how they should live. If Teddy had more of a backbone, perhaps Hannah's "like" for him could have turned to love eventually.

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Teddy is a traditionalist after all. He expects what society has deemed the norm. He see Hannah as wife, not an individual.
MG

[fordmg]

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lamorgan wrote:
And what is Teddy doing running for politics in England when he is an American?

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Teddy was not an Anerican. His mother was American. He was born and raised in England. He was running for Parlament.
MG

[fordmg]

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JoyZ wrote:
I was not shocked that Teddy had been a Nazi sympathizer because I felt Hilter was just coming into power and that he hadn't committed any atrocities yet.

I liked the line about there being a chasm between Teddy's ambitions and his actions - just like Frederick, wouldn't you say? I think they were both good men that got caught up with being pressured by their families and how those sacrifices to family changed their lives.

I'm anxious to find out how the fire at Riverton started.

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Hitler got more aggressive as he gained more power. He was only elected on his third try, and not by a large margin the first time. As the economy improved, he gained more power and eventually became a dictator. He really sneaked up on the Germans.
Teddy's sympathies were stictly business. If he could make money nothing else mattered.
MG

[CanTri]

p. 300 Sylvia pointing out Anthony for the first time to Grace
That's him there, Sylvia whispers, indicating a man whose ordinariness renders him vaguely familiar.

Is he so ordinary that he could pass as anyone, nothing remarkable about him OR is he ordinary in a familiar way that someone in the past was ordinary (and hence Anthony could be grandchild of some Riverton folk).

[CanTri]

For lack of knowing where else to put it (someone else may have pointed it out already on another thread).

second paragraph down on p.303. I have a random 3 on my page.
"I3 can no longer be trusted with hot liquids."

The 3 should probably be removed before the next publishing.

[kiakar]

Teddy is a traditionalist after all. He expects what society has deemed the norm. He see Hannah as wife, not an individual.
MG

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I agree with this 100%.

[m3girl]

Some notes from the chapter:

1.There is another hint about Robbie - p 301. There are no photos of Robbie at Riverton. He only came the two times. It's an interesting line that sort of pops out of no where. I guess this is something you can do when you are writing as an older person - you can sometimes ramble and provide hints to the reader. And then she mentions the fire at Riverton right before WW2...just that once she mentions it.....

2. I would like to learn more about Marcus.

3. Teddy and Hitler ... yikes! NOw I guess that should not come as a big surprise - especially with the explanation that he did business with the nazi's before the world really know what they were up to. And I would guess there were other business men that did the same. But still - to have it be Teddy is significant and puts another layer of yuk on his character.

4. Several good teasers - more about Robbie...at Riverton...And what happened to Hannah and Teddy? Could and would she leave him?

[HannibalCat]

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kmliska wrote:

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lamorgan wrote:
This chapter seems to reveal that Teddy is perhaps too attached to his family and not able to make a complete commitment to Hannah. He seems to take their side over hers and allows his family to dictate how they should live. If Teddy had more of a backbone, perhaps Hannah's "like" for him could have turned to love eventually.

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I agree with you. I think Teddy just goes along with what the family wants. It seems as if Hannah is a necessity. He must have a wife but he is still devoted to his family and their goals. I think their relationship would be much different if he was a little more independent and did what was right for him and Hannah.

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Ditto. I can't help but wonder how things might have been if he had more backbone. The blame game has lots of shoulders it could land on.

[HannibalCat]

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dhaupt wrote:
KxBurns wrote:
Nancy, I love your idea of unintentional cruelty. What other instances of unintentional cruelty have we seen in the book thus far? How much culpability does one bear when he/she is unintentionally cruel?
_______________________________________________

Karen,
It would take two pages to note all of the unintentional cruelty in the book, but to paraphrase:
Grace's treatment of Ruth & Alfred. Grace's mothers treatment of her. Frederick's treatment of his children. Teddy's treatment of Hannah. And I can go on.
As far as culpability goes I think if it was done out of ignorance then no. But if it was out of indifference then yes.

Message Edited by dhaupt on 01-21-2008 09:40 AM

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I disagree with the lack of culpability if it was done unintentionally. Even if innocent, injury has occurred, and the person shares in the responsibility. Of course, I agree with you that intentional cruelty is culpable. But usually that type of person exonerates him/herself by rationalizing the situation and their part in it. So the innocent person feels bad, and the guilty one doesn't. It is indeed a theme that runs through the book.