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vivico1
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths


Cyndell wrote:

Librarian wrote:


KxBurns wrote:
With this chapter, Grace becomes an active participant in the lives of the Hartfords. No longer just an observer, she accompanies Hannah on a rescue mission to retrieve Emmeline.



then, her secret from Hannah -- that she doesn't actually know shorthand -- threatens to be revealed. To prevent this, she goes to Lucy Starling, >





I also found this a bit strange. That Grace wouldn't reveal her secret to Hannah, that she was buying a book, and not taking shorthand lessons.

Cindy


I think the reason Grace didnt reveal that she was not taking shorthand but had bought a book instead right when they were talking was that Hannah had just revealed to her a secret that not only would she not tell her sister but she actually told a servant! And one that wants to be a part of her life so badly, that I think Grace realized that if she told her the truth right then, two things would happen, Hannah might feel a fool for revealing her own very important secret to Grace and be much more on guard from then on, maybe so embarrassed she would stay away from Grace then and Grace most certainly did not want that. Also if Hannah had been embarrassed enough, she could have taken Graces book from her, just to salve herself and put up that veil between masters and servants again. Grace in sincerity didnt want to embarrass Hannah for her revealed secret, but also this was a chance to begin to be close to her too that she so desperately wanted. Grace wants close to Hannah almost more than anything else or anyone else throughout this book so far.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

You know, something else I would like to know is what the heck happened back at Riverton that was so terribly bad that Emmeline who would have been shocked by a half dressed person, would go with this man and do basically porno flicks, or "french postcards"? She wanted to get married so much and it be all romantic and I can see her wanting it so much that maybe she did fall for this guys line and believed him and that they would be married, it happens, but this is not the way the Emmeline we had read about would go about it. No engagement, no big tado about it, no wedding. And how the heck did she even meet this guy? I can see that Frederick has just stop being in charge of anything or anyone, including his daughter, but where is Fanny and, oh the women who worked so hard to get Hannah married? It has not been that long that they should not be doing the same for Emmeline or even want to, they love this stuff.

When Hannah told her there was no solution in running away, I think Emmeline did in fact runaway and tho thats compared to what Hannah did, I dont see it quite the same. Hannah had an idea of what she wanted in life too, and when she thought this was how it was to happen, she wasnt so much running away from something at that point, she was running TO something, her dream. Question is,with all the changes in Teddy and her life with Teddy, will she run AWAY this time.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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glycerinefire
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

That's a really interesting question, vivico. I hadn't really stopped to wonder about what transformed Emmeline in that time period. It certainly was a big jump between who she was in youth, and who she was in late adolescence. Maybe it had to do with the trauma of losing David, or feeling abandoned by Hannah. Maybe it was just the pain of watching her father unravel. Interesting to think about.
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination." ~Oscar Wilde

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."~JRR Tolkien
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JoyZ
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

I think it had to do with Emmeline feeling abandoned by everyone. First David, then Hannah and now her father. A young hormonal teen is going to be taken in by the one giving her the attention and the "love" that she needs and isn't finding at home. She had always grasped at what attention was given her.

I remember those red poppies. I never knew that England also had them. Haven't seen them in years.
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Iulievich
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths


JoyZ wrote:
I remember those red poppies. I never knew that England also had them. Haven't seen them in years.




Historical note: The red poppies are used for commemoration of war dead in both countries because of the broad fields covered with red poppies that are common to that part of the Western Front to which the British and, later, the Americans were deployed.

As a child after the Second War I saw those poppies growing, and they are a sobering sight. What should have been the unalloyed pleasure of a beautiful scene was tinged by the knowledge (ghosts, if you will) of practically an entire generation of young men who died there. The wind through the poppy fields has a quiet, mournful quality, and the poppies themselves give the whole scene the color of blood.

They were further immortalized by a now-nearly-forgotten poem by a Canadian officer who himself was later killed there.

The text of the poem can be found at the website for Arlington National Cemetery. I have reproduced it below.

In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD, Canadian Army

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an action but a habit." -Aristotle
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Iulievich
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths


glycerinefire wrote:
That's a really interesting question, vivico. I hadn't really stopped to wonder about what transformed Emmeline in that time period. It certainly was a big jump between who she was in youth, and who she was in late adolescence. Maybe it had to do with the trauma of losing David, or feeling abandoned by Hannah. Maybe it was just the pain of watching her father unravel. Interesting to think about.




The change in Emmeline seems to correspond with Hannah's marriage and with the incident in the Burgundy Room in which she opened Hannah's locket. She was shocked to find a piece from The Game. Hannah had told her that all of them had been buried after David died.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an action but a habit." -Aristotle
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Ophelia123
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



vivico1 wrote:
You know, something else I would like to know is what the heck happened back at Riverton that was so terribly bad that Emmeline who would have been shocked by a half dressed person, would go with this man and do basically porno flicks, or "french postcards"?

We don't see the transformation of Emmeline as we do Hannah. So it is difficult to see the changes in her. However, I think that Emmeline grows into a teenager with no boundaries. Hannah was given boundaries by Fredrick. Emmeline was the youngest and Frederick by that time was already desolate. Its easy to see that Emmeline was doing whatever she wanted and as a teenager of course it means acquiring all the attention in a room. :smileyhappy:

Ophelia
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bentley
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



KxBurns wrote:

bentley wrote:
GRACE:

I think Grace had true affection for Alfred and now they had tickets to see an important play. But I think the lines have been blurred for Grace in terms of what she should be doing for others and what she should be doing for herself.


HANNAH:

What the fortune teller saw for Hannah is not surprising. It was plain to see that Hannah had died inside. She really has nobody else but Grace.

Bentley




I agree with you about Grace - she has fallen into the trap that her mother warned her about, living vicariously through the lives of these people for whom she works, and who ultimately care little about her happiness.

Regarding Hannah and the death card, she interprets this as her own metaphorical death and you agree with that. In your opinion, what event in her life marks this metaphorical death? Was it her marriage, or something else?...

Karen




There were a number of incremental factors which built upon each other through the novel. David's death affected her deeply, then her father's estrangement and ultimate death, a marriage where the man was not a man and his words turned out to be vastly different than his actions, Deborah taking over the running of the home, Hannah being subjected to a second class existence with no career outlets. Her marriage and the aspects surrounding the marriage played the substantial role. She had committed herself to an enslaved life with a man and an existence which did not suit her or her dreams.
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cocospals
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

I know it was a different time but how sad that Emmeline could not distinguish between "a love story" and pornography.
Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there - John Wooden
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AllieK
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



JoyZ wrote:
I think it had to do with Emmeline feeling abandoned by everyone. First David, then Hannah and now her father. A young hormonal teen is going to be taken in by the one giving her the attention and the "love" that she needs and isn't finding at home. She had always grasped at what attention was given her.

I remember those red poppies. I never knew that England also had them. Haven't seen them in years.





Don't forget..Emmeline and Hannah were basically abandoned by their mother (by death) at an early age, so they didn't have any 'female' companion to figure out what a 'normal' lady's life would be like. I think this was a big part of their lives too!
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AbbyLynn
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



Ophelia123 wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
You know, something else I would like to know is what the heck happened back at Riverton that was so terribly bad that Emmeline who would have been shocked by a half dressed person, would go with this man and do basically porno flicks, or "french postcards"?

We don't see the transformation of Emmeline as we do Hannah. So it is difficult to see the changes in her. However, I think that Emmeline grows into a teenager with no boundaries. Hannah was given boundaries by Fredrick. Emmeline was the youngest and Frederick by that time was already desolate. Its easy to see that Emmeline was doing whatever she wanted and as a teenager of course it means acquiring all the attention in a room. :smileyhappy:

Ophelia





While we don't exactly see Emmeline grow into a teenager, we can put together some details that might have led to Emmeline becoming the teenager she did. She is the one child of the three that never knew her mother (granted, the other two didn't know her for very long and Hannah may not even remember). And, as Ophelia pointed out, by the time Emmeline was a teenager, Frederick was completely withdrawn. Even Lady Violet had died, leaving no one to insist on Emmeline acting one way or another. By the time Emmeline was 15 (16? my chronology might be off) her mother, brother, and grandmother had died, her sister had gotten married and moved away, and her father was completely withdrawn from the world around him. Emmeline certainly would not be the first (or last) girl to look for attention and affection in less than desirable ways under similar circumstances.
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AbbyLynn
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



crazyasitsounds wrote:
I've always been concerned about Grace growing too close to Hannah. Especially now that it's interfering with her relationship with Alfred, I think Grace is sacrificing her own possibilities to help Hannah achieve some limited independence.




I wonder if by the end of the book Grace will come to the same conclusion. We already know she married Ruth's father and not Alfred. She seems to have found some satisfaction in her work as an archaeologist, but I wonder what she thinks of her life as a whole at age 98?
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KxBurns
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



AbbyLynn wrote:
While we don't exactly see Emmeline grow into a teenager, we can put together some details that might have led to Emmeline becoming the teenager she did. She is the one child of the three that never knew her mother (granted, the other two didn't know her for very long and Hannah may not even remember). And, as Ophelia pointed out, by the time Emmeline was a teenager, Frederick was completely withdrawn. Even Lady Violet had died, leaving no one to insist on Emmeline acting one way or another. By the time Emmeline was 15 (16? my chronology might be off) her mother, brother, and grandmother had died, her sister had gotten married and moved away, and her father was completely withdrawn from the world around him. Emmeline certainly would not be the first (or last) girl to look for attention and affection in less than desirable ways under similar circumstances.



This is a great analysis of Emmeline's "baggage." It makes me think I would like it if we were more privy to Emmeline's interior life, as we are to Grace and Hannah's.
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EbonyAngel
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

My thoughts on this Chapter.
How did they know that Emmeline's disappearance threatened to become a scandal? Was it just the fact that she ran away? At the time, no one knew where she was or what she was up to.
That was real mean of Mrs. Tibbit. Appears like Mrs. Tibbit was waiting for Grace just to get her jib in.
When Hannah asked Grace about the note, she says she did get it. She doesn't say she read it. I understand why she doesn't want to tell Hannah she doesn't know shorthand. I think it would do no good for Grace to tell Hannah she can't read it. If she went along with it before, why change the status quo? Who knows how that would change the way Hannah sees Grace.
I found it interesting that Alfred "looked" up Lucy Starling when Grace couldn't make it.
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kiakar
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



EbonyAngel wrote:
My thoughts on this Chapter.
How did they know that Emmeline's disappearance threatened to become a scandal? Was it just the fact that she ran away? At the time, no one knew where she was or what she was up to.
That was real mean of Mrs. Tibbit. Appears like Mrs. Tibbit was waiting for Grace just to get her jib in.
When Hannah asked Grace about the note, she says she did get it. She doesn't say she read it. I understand why she doesn't want to tell Hannah she doesn't know shorthand. I think it would do no good for Grace to tell Hannah she can't read it. If she went along with it before, why change the status quo? Who knows how that would change the way Hannah sees Grace.
I found it interesting that Alfred "looked" up Lucy Starling when Grace couldn't make it.




Yeah, wasn't that all about how much he adored Grace, by getting another date when Grace was alittle late? Men!!
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nfam
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

It's interesting that Grace seems to need her place in the Hartford family so much that she lets her own happiness, the play with Alfred, be compromised. She seems to enjoy being caught up in the web of secrets and lies that govern the lives of the Hartford sisters. To me it doesn't bode well for Grace's happiness in the near term. It's almost as if she's addicted to the excitement, or possibly turmoil is a better word, of the Hartford sisters lives.

Nancy
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kmliska
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

In this chapter Grace is giving up her life to help Hannah with hers again. I can see now why Grace and Alfred wont end up together since Grace keeps putting aside her plans and feelings for Hannah. I am not surprised that Emmeline is being so rebellious. Why is Hannah the one who has to find her? Shouldn't Frederick be the one to look for her. He seems to have become very detached from his family.
Alfred surprised me in this chapter. He was so quick to run to Lucy when Grace didn't show up. I thought he cared more for her than that. Was he letting his anger and disappointment get the better of him? I think he is trying to upset Grace and it seems to have worked. Grace also seems to let her anger get the better of her since she vows to never see Lucy again.
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CanTri
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

Re:smileytongue:oppies

I don't know if they still do this in England, but in Canada they still sell little plastic, velvet covered poppies starting the end of October and pretty much everyone wears them through Remembrance Day (Nov. 11).
All schools have a moment of silence at 11:00 on 11/11. It's a very somber day. I was shocked when I moved to the States and there were no commemorative speeches, no moments of silence, nothing. They call in Veterans Day but nothing really happens on that day. At least in the couple of places I've lived in the midwest and east of the country. Everything gets clumped onto Memorial Day in May.

I went to school in France for a year and poppies grow in fields there like dandelions grow in fields in Canada/USA.
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kiakar
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



CanTri wrote:
Re:smileytongue:oppies

I don't know if they still do this in England, but in Canada they still sell little plastic, velvet covered poppies starting the end of October and pretty much everyone wears them through Remembrance Day (Nov. 11).
All schools have a moment of silence at 11:00 on 11/11. It's a very somber day. I was shocked when I moved to the States and there were no commemorative speeches, no moments of silence, nothing. They call in Veterans Day but nothing really happens on that day. At least in the couple of places I've lived in the midwest and east of the country. Everything gets clumped onto Memorial Day in May.

I went to school in France for a year and poppies grow in fields there like dandelions grow in fields in Canada/USA.




This did happen in Virginia in the early 50's but died out a few years after that. Because I remember selling them on Main street, when main street was very very different than it is now.
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dhaupt
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



kiakar wrote:


CanTri wrote:
Re:smileytongue:oppies

I don't know if they still do this in England, but in Canada they still sell little plastic, velvet covered poppies starting the end of October and pretty much everyone wears them through Remembrance Day (Nov. 11).
All schools have a moment of silence at 11:00 on 11/11. It's a very somber day. I was shocked when I moved to the States and there were no commemorative speeches, no moments of silence, nothing. They call in Veterans Day but nothing really happens on that day. At least in the couple of places I've lived in the midwest and east of the country. Everything gets clumped onto Memorial Day in May.

I went to school in France for a year and poppies grow in fields there like dandelions grow in fields in Canada/USA.




This did happen in Virginia in the early 50's but died out a few years after that. Because I remember selling them on Main street, when main street was very very different than it is now.




When I was young I also remember people wearing poppies to remember, but like kiakar the tradition died out. I live near St. Louis, MO.
Debbie
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