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Inspired Contributor
katknit
Posts: 347
Registered: ‎01-27-2007
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



dhaupt wrote:


kiakar wrote:


CanTri wrote:
Re:smileytongue:oppies

I don't know if they still do this in England, but in Canada they still sell little plastic, velvet covered poppies starting the end of October and pretty much everyone wears them through Remembrance Day (Nov. 11).
All schools have a moment of silence at 11:00 on 11/11. It's a very somber day. I was shocked when I moved to the States and there were no commemorative speeches, no moments of silence, nothing. They call in Veterans Day but nothing really happens on that day. At least in the couple of places I've lived in the midwest and east of the country. Everything gets clumped onto Memorial Day in May.

I went to school in France for a year and poppies grow in fields there like dandelions grow in fields in Canada/USA.




This did happen in Virginia in the early 50's but died out a few years after that. Because I remember selling them on Main street, when main street was very very different than it is now.




When I was young I also remember people wearing poppies to remember, but like kiakar the tradition died out. I live near St. Louis, MO.
Debbie





Here in CT, veterans' organizations still provide them. I usually stick mine in the sun visor of my car.
No two persons ever read the same book. [Edmund Wilson]
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

GRACE:

I think Grace had true affection for Alfred and now they had tickets to see an important play. But I think the lines have been blurred for Grace in terms of what she should be doing for others and what she should be doing for herself. Her actions spoiled her chances with Albert who ended up taking Miss Starling to the play instead. I thought he did that a little too quickly I might add. I always wondered about Alfred just having Miss Starling's address in London. Also Alfred had visions of not being in service any longer and maybe Miss Starling was more to his new way of thinking about life while Grace would remind him of his old life and station.
bentley

I don't think Alfred was too quick to look for Miss Starling. He had seen her previously, he had a previous conversation with Grace about doing too much as a servant on her day off. He waited a long time for Grace, and Mrs. Tibit gave him the indication that Grace may not return. He must wonder why she is doing errands for Hannah on her day off. He has tickets and what is he to do. It cost a large amount of his income to get them and Grace wasn't even there when he came calling. I understand him perfectly.
MG
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

Do we know that what Alfred feels is love?
MG

I guess my question was is this how you treat a woman you love; he seemed quite quick on the uptake even though he may have acted out of jealousy or hurt...he certainly did not give her an opportunity to explain given he knew the circumstances of her employment and the demands they made on her.
bentley
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

[ Edited ]

fordmg wrote:
Do we know that what Alfred feels is love?
MG

I guess my question was is this how you treat a woman you love; he seemed quite quick on the uptake even though he may have acted out of jealousy or hurt...he certainly did not give her an opportunity to explain given he knew the circumstances of her employment and the demands they made on her.
bentley




Yes, I think Alfred needed a lesson in patience and endurance. He wanted what he wanted and when he wanted it. Maybe after the long separation [edited by moderator], he realized that Grace was a great find and he was lucky to have found her again.

Message Edited by KxBurns on 01-24-2008 10:59 PM
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Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

[ Edited ]

kmliska wrote (ed.):
In this chapter Grace is giving up her life to help Hannah with hers again. I can see now why Grace and Alfred won't end up together since Grace keeps putting aside her plans and feelings for Hannah. I am not surprised that Emmeline is being so rebellious. Why is Hannah the one who has to find her? Shouldn't Frederick be the one to look for her? He seems to have become very detached from his family.

Alfred surprised me in this chapter. He was so quick to run to Lucy when Grace didn't show up. I thought he cared more for her than that. Was he letting his anger and disappointment get the better of him? I think he is trying to upset Grace and it seems to have worked. Grace also seems to let her anger get the better of her since she vows to never see Lucy again.
I read it sort of as the not-so-wealthy person who has the oh-too-expensive tickets for a Broadway show or opera performance and just can't bear to let one "go to waste." Then, things happened from there -- egos were thwarted, opportunists (Lucy, perhaps) were around, ...

(Remember Lucy entering the servant's quarters?)

Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-28-2008 11:23 AM
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



Peppermill wrote:

kmliska wrote (ed.):
In this chapter Grace is giving up her life to help Hannah with hers again. I can see now why Grace and Alfred won't end up together since Grace keeps putting aside her plans and feelings for Hannah. I am not surprised that Emmeline is being so rebellious. Why is Hannah the one who has to find her? Shouldn't Frederick be the one to look for her? He seems to have become very detached from his family.

Alfred surprised me in this chapter. He was so quick to run to Lucy when Grace didn't show up. I thought he cared more for her than that. Was he letting his anger and disappointment get the better of him? I think he is trying to upset Grace and it seems to have worked. Grace also seems to let her anger get the better of her since she vows to never see Lucy again.
I read it sort of as the not-so-wealthy person who has the oh-too-expensive tickets for a Broadway show or opera performance and just can't bear to let one "go to waste." Then, things happened from there -- egos were thwarted, opportunists (Lucy, perhaps) were around, ...

(Remember Lucy entering the servant's quarters?)

Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-28-2008 11:23 AM




I agree with you Peppermill. Albert can't waste the tickets, who else does he know.
MG
Correspondent
m3girl
Posts: 194
Registered: ‎03-02-2007
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

Some notes from the Chapter:

1. Interesting adventure for Emmeline. She surely is rather naive! It was hard to believe that a girl like Emmeline was so in need of feeling loved that she would run away and subject herself to that sort of thing...and exactly what sort of seedy movies was she going to star in?

2. I was sad for Grace - being late to meet up with Alfred and then running over to the theater to try to find him. Is this the last straw with Alfred? I hope not - but then I already know that they do not marry - so perhaps it would be best to end this way.

3. Atta boy Alfred finding Lucy Starling to take to the theater - good company and not wasting a hard earned ticket! This may lead to something - and therefore really be the end of the road for Grace with Alfred. She thinks about him but I do not think she is really interested in him - otherwise she would not feel the need to use her day off to help Hannah. NO - her heart and loyalty are to Hannah.

4. Teddy wants a baby? What is Hannah to do? There are hints that things are not good between them romantically... Teddy is just one of those rich guys oblivious to reality.

5. I wish Grace would have at least leveraged her offer from Lady Pemberton-Brown to get a raise and better working conditions with Hannah...but her loyalty to Hannah makes her blind to her own needs. She is giving all of herself to Hannah - and I am not sure it is truely appreciated as much as it should be.
Moderator
KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths


m3girl wrote:
I wish Grace would have at least leveraged her offer from Lady Pemberton-Brown to get a raise and better working conditions with Hannah...but her loyalty to Hannah makes her blind to her own needs. She is giving all of herself to Hannah - and I am not sure it is truely appreciated as much as it should be.



Your comment made me wonder about the fact that we never truly know what the conditions of Grace's employment are... Is she paid well for all the secrets she keeps? I imagine, though, that she probably makes whatever the standard wage would be for a servant in her position at the time, and that it would not occur to her to demand more. Part of that is surely due to the times, and the fact that the working class is only just becoming mobilized (foreshadowed by Alfred's growing dissatisfaction), but part of Grace's complacence is due to her affection for Hannah. I do believe she would work for free!
Correspondent
m3girl
Posts: 194
Registered: ‎03-02-2007
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

I guess I would have to agree. But in the end I think Hannah shows her appreciation financially with the safety deposit box - enough to get Grace set up for a new future....and that might have been more than what she would have gotten from Frederick in an inheritance given his lack of business acumen.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths

yes, it came out well for her in the end of her service. She seemed well provided for by Hannah.
Correspondent
HannibalCat
Posts: 238
Registered: ‎10-25-2006
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Re: PART THREE: In the Depths



Iulievich wrote:

JoyZ wrote:
I remember those red poppies. I never knew that England also had them. Haven't seen them in years.




Historical note:

In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD, Canadian Army

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.




I have only seen photos of Flanders Field but was moved. I have loved this poem since I was in grade school (a long time ago). Thanks for reproducing it.
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