PART TWO: A Suitable Husband

[nhawkinsII]

Actually I believe Lady Clem set the process in motion with her "heartfelt" conversation with Simion...marriage with a proper wife would be Teddy's ticket to Parliament...We all know the family at Riverton was well respected as far as country and duty were concerned...Simion was an ambitious man...he wanted nothing to stand in his way and he wanted Teddy in Parliament...(By the way i believe Teddy may have been handsome, had lots of dates, but truly could have cared less about marriage. So if his father believed marriage to Hannah was the answer, Teddy would try to fulill that obligation.) So the game began with Simion I believe...

Hannah was the real surprise here. To have been a character of such independence and strength, she garbs the first opportunity to leave. This just seemed a little "too contrived"...Teddy was just as handsome at the dinner and she had no particular interest in him during that occasion.

And by the way I believe this "maneuvering" still occurs. Is it acceptable? Personally I don't like to be "maneuvered" but it can and does happen in such a fashion the players are not aware. (And it does seem the players Simion and Hannah are not aware of the "maneuvering" around them.)

[bookhunter]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:
I also have a feeling of doom in this chapter. I'm getting the feeling that the problems between Emmeline and Hannah and Grace are not going to be a bombshell but probably a petty misunderstanding. I'm not saying I dislike the book, I have been enjoying it, but I can't help but think that there's going to be a let down. Anyone else have thoughts similar to mine? I am hoping, and would be very happy if, I'm totally wrong.

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Many of you have said there is this feeling of doom and gloom hanging over this chapter and worry about the outcome of the marraige.

But, really, I enjoyed this chapter and thought it was sort of romantic. There is not a thing wrong with Teddy. If there have been any "maneuvers" behind his showing an interest in Hannah, we haven't seen them. So his interest seems genuine. He is not a bad guy, and seems to be exactly the kind of match that would make Hannah happy...adventurer, more mature, interested in social issues, has a sister who "works" that he seems to think kindly of.

I guess the feeling of doom and gloom comes from this technique of the author's that you all have mentioned of telling what is going to happen, then revealing it. We know there is a tragic triangle that leads to the death of Robbie, so that is the raincloud over this wedding.

But taken all by itself, this little courtship SEEMS to be successful.

Which, I guess, is a problem for me. Because we "know" there is tragedy coming, we are looking for it, and can't buy in to a possible romance between Teddy and Hannah. To me, it would be more TRAGIC if we didn't know ahead of time that there is a problem coming down the road. We already know not to get our hopes up about this relationship.

Ann, bookhunter

Message Edited by bookhunter on 01-11-2008 10:55 AM

[ezraSid]

I loved the part at the bridge. I found what Teddy did was quite romantic. It's no wonder that Hannah saw him in a different light. I wonder if she would have accepted his proposal if she hadn't. Who knows. I was sad to see Lady Violet leave this world. For all her conniving she was a sweet woman.

The thing that bothers me the most about the chapter is that Simion didn't help Frederick out even after the engagement was announced. Don't you think that he would help out a "family" member? I don't know, maybe I was hoping for too much. I think that perhaps if Simion would have bought into the company as an equal partner, he could have made changes that Frederick was reluctant to make and perhaps turn the business around.

The very end mentioning Robbie's resurrection.... it may just be me, but it sounds ominous.

[vivico1]

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ezraSid wrote:
I loved the part at the bridge. I found what Teddy did was quite romantic. It's no wonder that Hannah saw him in a different light. I wonder if she would have accepted his proposal if she hadn't. Who knows. I was sad to see Lady Violet leave this world. For all her conniving she was a sweet woman.

The thing that bothers me the most about the chapter is that Simion didn't help Frederick out even after the engagement was announced. Don't you think that he would help out a "family" member? I don't know, maybe I was hoping for too much. I think that perhaps if Simion would have bought into the company as an equal partner, he could have made changes that Frederick was reluctant to make and perhaps turn the business around.

The very end mentioning Robbie's resurrection.... it may just be me, but it sounds ominous.

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From Simion's own description of his business practices, I dont think he want to buy into the business but to buy it out! It would certainly make the families seem more equal and help out Frederick to do so but I dont think Simion cares if he can turn a buck.

[Carmenere_lady]

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bookhunter wrote:

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Carmenere_lady wrote:
I also have a feeling of doom in this chapter. I'm getting the feeling that the problems between Emmeline and Hannah and Grace are not going to be a bombshell but probably a petty misunderstanding. I'm not saying I dislike the book, I have been enjoying it, but I can't help but think that there's going to be a let down. Anyone else have thoughts similar to mine? I am hoping, and would be very happy if, I'm totally wrong.

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Many of you have said there is this feeling of doom and gloom hanging over this chapter and worry about the outcome of the marraige.

But, really, I enjoyed this chapter and thought it was sort of romantic. There is not a thing wrong with Teddy. If there have been any "maneuvers" behind his showing an interest in Hannah, we haven't seen them. So his interest seems genuine. He is not a bad guy, and seems to be exactly the kind of match that would make Hannah happy...adventurer, more mature, interested in social issues, has a sister who "works" that he seems to think kindly of.

I guess the feeling of doom and gloom comes from this technique of the author's that you all have mentioned of telling what is going to happen, then revealing it. We know there is a tragic triangle that leads to the death of Robbie, so that is the raincloud over this wedding.

But taken all by itself, this little courtship SEEMS to be successful.

Which, I guess, is a problem for me. Because we "know" there is tragedy coming, we are looking for it, and can't buy in to a possible romance between Teddy and Hannah. To me, it would be more TRAGIC if we didn't know ahead of time that there is a problem coming down the road. We already know not to get our hopes up about this relationship.

Ann, bookhunter

Message Edited by bookhunter on 01-11-2008 10:55 AM

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Really, Ann, I'm not worried about Teddy's and Hannah's marriage. In the Drawing Room chapter Grace tell's us that Teddy would like Grace to stay out of loyalty to Hannah. So it seems he cares about Hannah's comfort, feelings, something like that. And Teddy's still in the house it appears even though his role has been diminished. It's just that all of the little scenarios we were all coming up with sounded so much more intriguing than where the story seems to be headed. Ms Morton has some suspenseful moments such as Emmeline attempting to place the angel on the tree or when Alfred ran out of the house during the Luxton's dinner yet it seemed the suspense falls flat because nothing earth shattering happened. Thus I'm beginning to think all the build up in the story is going to disappoint a bit.

[Peppermill]

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bookhunter wrote:

Many of you have said there is this feeling of doom and gloom hanging over this chapter and worry about the outcome of the marriage.

But, really, I enjoyed this chapter and thought it was sort of romantic....

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Ann and others -- The comments on these threads about the feelings of doom and gloom and whether happiness is foretold for these lives have been very helpful in re-scanning this book. Grace and Morton have been quite clever, even shrewd, about suggesting where happiness exists (and does not) on the journey from womb to Sheol. And, yes, I do think Morton comments beyond the boundaries from birth to death, although I didn't particularly note that the first reading.

[KxBurns]

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nhawkinsII wrote:
Hannah was the real surprise here. To have been a character of such independence and strength, she garbs the first opportunity to leave. This just seemed a little "too contrived"...Teddy was just as handsome at the dinner and she had no particular interest in him during that occasion.

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I disagree - I think Hannah's interest was piqued when Teddy mentioned his upcoming travels to Eqypt. Hannah's eyes widened. It wasn't enough at that time, perhaps, to spark real interest in him, given Hannah's aversion to the idea of marriage, but in concert with the maneuvering of the others, it makes Teddy an attractive way out...

[vivico1]

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KxBurns wrote:

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nhawkinsII wrote:
Hannah was the real surprise here. To have been a character of such independence and strength, she garbs the first opportunity to leave. This just seemed a little "too contrived"...Teddy was just as handsome at the dinner and she had no particular interest in him during that occasion.

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I disagree - I think Hannah's interest was piqued when Teddy mentioned his upcoming travels to Eqypt. Hannah's eyes widened. It wasn't enough at that time, perhaps, to spark real interest in him, given Hannah's aversion to the idea of marriage, but in concert with the maneuvering of the others, it makes Teddy an attractive way out...

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I agree Karen. When your expected to get married and you just want out and to travel and be adventurous and here comes a man who is interesting to talk to, listens to you and most of all, likes adventure and to travel too and talks to you about you should go too, then he could become VERY attractive as a way out and still satisfy your duty to marry. And it didnt hurt that she felt a twing of physical attration to him at the bridge too. (He may have been handsome at dinner but it was when she saw the whole form of his body under his wet clothes that she realizes she does feel something kind of nice) This really seemed to be the solution she was looking for.

[JoyZ]

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vivico1 wrote:

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I agree Karen. When your expected to get married and you just want out and to travel and be adventurous and here comes a man who is interesting to talk to, listens to you and most of all, likes adventure and to travel too and talks to you about you should go too, then he could become VERY attractive as a way out and still satisfy your duty to marry. And it didnt hurt that she felt a twing of physical attration to him at the bridge too. (He may have been handsome at dinner but it was when she saw the whole form of his body under his wet clothes that she realizes she does feel something kind of nice) This really seemed to be the solution she was looking for.

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I also agree. It was stated that the choices were marriage or being an old maid, so I think Hannah was a little desparate for her chance at adventure. The family was in desparate times, Frederick's business, the selling off of furnishings, so I think Hannah may have felt it may be now or never. She grabbed onto the brass ring. Teddy would rescue not only her locket, but give her the life she wanted, without financial worries.

[cocospals]

I felt that the attraction between Hannah and Teddy really started during the chapter "The Dinner" and then was nudged when Hannah appeared in her riding clothes. Teddy gave casual hints that he was attracted to Hannah and I think she was to him. She told Teddy the stories from her childhood, this isn't something you tell a total stranger. She revealed part of herself to him at that point and it truly showed her adventurous spirit and her desire for adventure. The locket incident showed Teddys affection developing, you don't sludge thru the mud and yuck for just anyone! I think Lady Clem saw the attraction, I think that is why she chose to stay behind with the horses while Teddy and Hannah headed for the bridge. We all know from Westerns that the horses always fend for themselves.

[isugirl]

Initially, I was disappointed that Hannah chose to marry Teddy. After hearing her reasoning (it takes money to gain independence and she could not get this at Riverton), I understood a little more her intentions. I question though how Hannah will ever gain this independence by marrying someone. The marriage will take her to new places, but with marriage comes new responsibilities. I have a feeling Hannah will regret her decision later on.

[nfam]

with the rain and machinations that lead a very young girl to marry a man at least ten years older, I doubt that the marriage can be happy. I guess there wouldn't be a story if this were a happy marriage. I wonder what part Emmeline will play in the unhappiness.

Certainly Fanny and Lady Clem prime the pump, so to speak. They know Hannah wants adventure and independence. Marriage is made to seem the only way out. Then too, the scene at the bridge is quite romantic. The hero goes after the locket. What young girl wouldn't be impressed.

This was an interesting chapter for me because the motivations of the women were so clear. One wonders what Teddy was thinking. It almost seems that he came primed to ask for Hannah, otherwise it seems to have been an extremely sudden impulse.

Loving this story and they way it unfolds.

Nancy

[Linda10]

Once again, we see the locket playing a big role in this chapter. On page 250, Kate Morton writes, "...and in that moment fate intervened." I truly feel that fate did intervene. The locket is SO important to Hannah because it contains one of the books from The Game that she played with Emmeline and David. With David gone, the little book inside the locket has now become a priceless object. It's Hannah's only tangible evidence of David. The fact that Teddy so heroically "saves" the locket's life makes Hannah look at him altogether in a different light. Would this whole incident have been a big deal if Hannah had accidentally dropped a piece of the fruitcake in the river instead? I hardly think so. Nor would Teddy have bothered to go after it. The fact that it was the locket, so near and dear to Hannah, made all the difference in the world.

Now I'm more curious than ever -- how does Grace wind up with the locket? And why?

[ashleym919]

I too have been surprised at Lady Clem and Fanny's ability to work to find a proper marriage when up to this point Fanny has seemed as smart as a log. I think Hannah was very much influenced by Fanny's talk of gaining independence through marriage.

At the dinner, Hannah saw her father's intense disapproval of women working outside the home, and she knows how difficult it would be to leave Riverton on her own. Though she is independent and longs for adventure, I do not believe she would leave in a way that would tarnish the family's reputation.

While at the bridge, Hannah saw an opportunity and also appreciated that Teddy was able to save something that contained a piece of David. Teddy was talking to her about things she wanted to hear - a chance for travel, adventure, freedom. I worry that Teddy, being so much older than her, is only saying the things he knows will convince her to marry him without being genuine. He would certainly know how to manipulate Hannah, but we know nothing of his motivations.

[gosox]

This chapter could have easily been titled "Manipulaton" or "Maneuvers." I found the conversation Lady Clementine had with Simion particularly interesting. After she speaks to him of Teddy's need for a wife for political reasons, she seemingly understands Simion's declaration that Teddy just hasn't met the right girl. However, she then insinuates that Teddy needs a wife for another reason as well when she declares " 'Of course, Mr. Luxton. You and I both know that. But the other ladies . .. They look at your son and see a fine good-looking fellow with so much to offer, yet left wanting a wife. You can't blame them that they start to wonder why.' She raised her eyebrows./ Simion's cheeks turned red. 'My son is not ... No Luxton man has ever been accused of ...' 'Of couse not, Mr. Luxton,' Lady Clementine said smoothly ... I'm just passing on the thoughts of some of our ladies. They like to know a man is a man. Not an aesthete."(242) She is a master manipulator! Is her insinuation correct? If so, things do not bode well for Hannah.

As someone else has mentioned, Simion, Teddy, and Hannah, have been played by a master manipulator. However, their own motives have played into the outcome as well. Hannah chooses Teddy to escape, Teddy a collector of "objects of beauty" (246) wants out of his father's shadow, and Simion is motivated by his own selfish interests.

Message Edited by gosox on 01-14-2008 09:20 PM

[KxBurns]

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gosox wrote:
This chapter could have easily been titled "Manipulaton" or "Maneuvers." I found the conversation Lady Clementine had with Simion particularly interesting. After she speaks to him of Teddy's need for a wife for political reasons, she seemingly understands Simion's declaration that Teddy just hasn't met the right girl. However, she then insinuates that Teddy needs a wife for another reason as well when she declares " 'Of course, Mr. Luxton. You and I both know that. But the other ladies . .. They look at your son and see a fine good-looking fellow with so much to offer, yet left wanting a wife. You can't blame them that they start to wonder why.' She raised her eyebrows./ Simion's cheeks turned red. 'My son is not ... No Luxton man has ever been accused of ...' 'Of couse not, Mr. Luxton,' Lady Clementine said smoothly ... I'm just passing on the thoughts of some of our ladies. They like to know a man is a man. Not an aesthete."(242) She is a master manipulator! Is her insinuation correct? If so, things do not bode well for Hannah.

As someone else has mentioned, Simion, Teddy, and Hannah, have been played by a master manipulator. However, their own motives have played into the outcome as well. Hannah chooses Teddy to escape, Teddy a collector of "objects of beauty" (246) wants out of his father's shadow, and Simion is motivated by his own selfish interests.

Message Edited by gosox on 01-14-2008 09:20 PM

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Great quote about Teddy collecting objects of beauty, and I do think he was capivated by Hannah's subtle jabs at his father at the dinner. So there seems to be some genuine attraction there.

But I think Ashleym919 hit upon something with her suggestion that Teddy might have ulterior motives in marrying Hannah, such as furthering his political career. Do you agree?

[ELee]

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KxBurns wrote:

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gosox wrote:
This chapter could have easily been titled "Manipulaton" or "Maneuvers." I found the conversation Lady Clementine had with Simion particularly interesting. After she speaks to him of Teddy's need for a wife for political reasons, she seemingly understands Simion's declaration that Teddy just hasn't met the right girl. However, she then insinuates that Teddy needs a wife for another reason as well when she declares " 'Of course, Mr. Luxton. You and I both know that. But the other ladies . .. They look at your son and see a fine good-looking fellow with so much to offer, yet left wanting a wife. You can't blame them that they start to wonder why.' She raised her eyebrows./ Simion's cheeks turned red. 'My son is not ... No Luxton man has ever been accused of ...' 'Of couse not, Mr. Luxton,' Lady Clementine said smoothly ... I'm just passing on the thoughts of some of our ladies. They like to know a man is a man. Not an aesthete."(242) She is a master manipulator! Is her insinuation correct? If so, things do not bode well for Hannah.

As someone else has mentioned, Simion, Teddy, and Hannah, have been played by a master manipulator. However, their own motives have played into the outcome as well. Hannah chooses Teddy to escape, Teddy a collector of "objects of beauty" (246) wants out of his father's shadow, and Simion is motivated by his own selfish interests.

Message Edited by gosox on 01-14-2008 09:20 PM

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Great quote about Teddy collecting objects of beauty, and I do think he was capivated by Hannah's subtle jabs at his father at the dinner. So there seems to be some genuine attraction there.

But I think Ashleym919 hit upon something with her suggestion that Teddy might have ulterior motives in marrying Hannah, such as furthering his political career. Do you agree?

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I agree. As Grace observes
"It was a simple case of stars aligning; those that didn't being nudged into place."

More like a big push, if you ask me.

Grace wanted adventure and excitement and new experiences. Teddy wanted a successful political career and to be his own man. Through artful manipulation, Fanny planted in Hannah's mind the idea that she could achieve her desires through marriage. With similar finesse, Lady Clem introduced the idea to Simion, who (probably much less subtly!) conveyed the message to his son that marriage would add significantly to his political image. Once Hannah and Teddy were primed to be receptive, all the "stars" fell into place.

[kmliska]

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GMorrison wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:Why do you think Hannah agrees to marry Teddy? Is it Fanny's persuasion, or the encounter on the bridge, or a combination of both?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
Karen

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Both. Hannah's certainly been lead to believe by Fanny that marriage is a way to escape her social captivity at Riverton, and we know she's much more pragmatic than her sister. She probably figures that Teddy, with his money and his new and dangerous (to paraphrase others' responses) modern, American attitudes offers her the best chance at freedom. After all, as the oldest daughter in a failing aristocratic family, she's certain to be forced into a political marriage, just like her father (whose wife despised him). Why not do it with someone she at least gets along with, and who is demonstrably less old fashioned than either Frederick or Mr. Luxton senior?

Only thing is, I doubt it will work. Given the foreshadowing concerning Emmeline's engagement to Robbie while he was Hannah's lover, a see a reputation-breaking divorce in the offing...

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I agree that it is both. I think what Fanny said really convinced Hannah that marriage was a way to gain independence but I also think the moment at the bridge played a big part too. I think Hannah realized that Teddy wasn't that bad since he was willing to dive in to search for her locket. I also see the possibility of the marriage not working. I don't know that they will get divorced but I think Hannah will definitely not be happy in the end. I think what she expects and what she ends up getting out of the marriage will be two different things in the end.

[fordmg]

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dhaupt wrote:
Are there any good omen's for this union?
And when Lady Violet says to Lady Clementine that she feels impending doom, wow if she only knew.
I think Hannah marries Teddy because of what Fanny said, but I also think she saw him in a new light when he rescues her locket.

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Hannah saw Teddy as a man - the wet clothes showed a good male physic that she never bothered to look at before. He wasn't a banker as his father - Teddy was also independent.
MG

[fordmg]

Most high society marrages at this time were arranged. Yes, Hannah and Teddy were manipulated, but that was the rule, not the exception. Clem and Violet lamented the lack of available men due to the war. They were desparate to find someone for Hannah.
MG