PART TWO: Bankers

[nickco3]

I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine

[kiakar]

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nickco3 wrote:
I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine

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Hi Nickco: yes, I certainly took notice when I read that chapter too, Nickco. I thought like you did, but even Grace took it that her mother had decided for once not to insist on having the last word like she usually did. Grace thought it was because her mom respected her opinion now that she was working there. But I take it like you did, something fishy about that Frederick and Grace's mom.

[bookhunter]

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Tasses wrote:
Perhaps I am just an isolated American, but I couldn't help being a tiny bit offended by the negative connotations towards American money & Americans in general. Did anyone else get that vibe in this chapter? Is this still a prevailing theme in Europe or is Ms. Morton merely parroting the times past? I guess it just spiked a bit of patriotism in me... lol.

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Tasses, I am not offended, but I do think the author is contrasting the two attitudes. "Old" money and aristocracy are a different set of values than the new, self made wealthy class of Americans. There probably still is some of that attitude--not just in Europe, but here in the States, as well. Money can't buy good taste or good manners!

But did you also notice back on p 81 when Ruth is driving Grace back after their day at church and tea...they pass the gates of Riverton estate and it is now open to the public as a tourist attraction, charging a fee. I think this is the case of many large estates in England and other European countries. (Even at the Biltmore Estate) They just take so much money to maintain. You can have aristocracy. You can have money. But sometimes you can't have both.

Ann, bookhunter

[GMorrison]

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Tasses wrote:
Perhaps I am just an isolated American, but I couldn't help being a tiny bit offended by the negative connotations towards American money & Americans in general. Did anyone else get that vibe in this chapter? Is this still a prevailing theme in Europe or is Ms. Morton merely parroting the times past? I guess it just spiked a bit of patriotism in me... lol.

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I can't speak for the extent of this phenomenon one way or the other, but look at what's happening at Riverton: they're an established, landed, aristocratic family with a nice reputation...but no money! Of course they're going to look down their noses at these rich, boarish Americans--because they're being forced to depend upon them to save Riverton, and that's got to come as a huge blow to their collective pride.

So if you're bothered by the vibe, take heart in the fact that it's probably the Americans (and their money) who are going to have the last laugh. :-)

[KxBurns]

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grapes wrote:
Thinking of Icarus, doesn't David defy fate by stretching his wings? He goes off to the war. He's shot down, dies. I think Icarus fell from the sky because he flew to close to the sun. When men become soldiers, sacrificing their lives for others, isn't it like they have chosen to be Icarus?

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Great insight! And consider the fact that his father, Frederick, built planes instead of cars during the war. So like Daedalus, father of Icarus, he provides the mode of transport that leads to his son's death.

Karen

[KxBurns]

I agree Bonnie and dhaupt, in that I do feel some sympathy for Frederick -- or am at least unconvinced that he's a total villain. There's an aura of sadness about him, some secret tragedy maybe?

I also think he is in many way as much a victim of the repression of his times/class as his daughter.

Karen

[paula_02912]

nickco3 wrote: "I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine"

Nick, I thought that Grace's Mother knew that he wouldn't marry again because it was a true love match for them...remember, Frederick was forced to marry Penelope, a woman he did not love...therefore, I don't believe that he will allow himself to be forced into that situation again...especially since he seems to be pining for something or someone...

[Tarri]

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KxBurns wrote:
I agree Bonnie and dhaupt, in that I do feel some sympathy for Frederick -- or am at least unconvinced that he's a total villain. There's an aura of sadness about him, some secret tragedy maybe?

I also think he is in many way as much a victim of the repression of his times/class as his daughter.

Karen

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I feel for Frederick because he was never "taught" how to run the manner and be the Lord of Riverton. As the younger brother the rules of passing the title and wealth to the first born son would have given him a life with little responsibility. Instead, he became the older son and then the title holder in a week and had no training in how to be either. He has absolutely no business sense and his father should have told him that years ago instead of giving him money for all of his new ventures.

Poor Alfred, I hope he recovers.

[crazyasitsounds]

It's interesting that all of Riverton's dynamics change at once. While all that change & modernization is sort of personified by Miss Starling, the most important change, in my opinion, is that Hannah is suddenly the oldest child. I think she feels she has to become a little more pragmatic & a little more responsible because of it.

[vivico1]

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Psycmo wrote:
Sher898,

I am struggling with this book so I was glad to see your post. I read a variety of genres, but I am feeling like I am STILL spending time waiting for this book to get really started. I am find the characters somewhat predictable demonstrating an almost intolerable level of adolescence in both the characters and the character development. I am finding that the description of people and places is leaving me wanting more. I guess at this point I am just conflicted and find that I am working to really get into this book and have actually "cheated" and read 2 other books while keeping this one as a bit of a chore breaking my own habit (read rule ) of reading one book at a time!

Mo

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Mo, this book is taking some time for me too, its not one for me thats a "cant put it down" kind of book. I know we have talked about the house as a character in the book, but now, the constant description of it or the grounds that can get quite lengthy, makes me feel that even if it is a character of the book, its getting too much attention and causing the book to drag at times so that I find myself waiting more of the story line. Sometimes, like in the last chapter I think it was, all the sudden is a burst of information told rather nonchalantly that we have been waiting for, since the beginning. Then we wade through more transition scenes again.

This chapter to me is a kind of transition chapter, the war is over, this is the state of things and the people and now its were does everyone go from here. Some of the most fascinating points to me just get tossed in sometimes matter of factly that I am like, wait, back up, I want to hear some more about this, we waited! lol. I like the story, I like the dialogs, but sometimes its a journey to get to them.

[vivico1]

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Tasses wrote:
Perhaps I am just an isolated American, but I couldn't help being a tiny bit offended by the negative connotations towards American money & Americans in general. Did anyone else get that vibe in this chapter? Is this still a prevailing theme in Europe or is Ms. Morton merely parroting the times past? I guess it just spiked a bit of patriotism in me... lol.

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I would imagine it is as prevalent today as our views about the Brits are. We dont think we view them differently but if you dont think we put them down, just watch Jay Leno, he brings up some things about them quite often, that I will not repeat here and its not just his thoughts, hes using them in his monologue because something has come up about them. Speaking of patriotism, one of my online friends, last year wished my brit friend a happy 4th of July, my eyes got big as I read it and cracked up and waited to see the Brit's reply. It was an honest, innocent thing to say but think about it for a second lol. The Brit wrote back finally saying, um yeah, we dont exactly celebrate that one, thats the one where you Yanks GOT SO UPPITY AND SUPPOSEDLY WON! hehehhe. We all had a good laugh and still tease her about it.

[vivico1]

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nickco3 wrote:
I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine

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Nickco3,
on the last chapter, I just posted about Grace,s mum's reaction to Frederick, so I won't post it again here . But also about these lines about her mother being certain he would NOT marry again, when Grace said he would to please his mother, I believe Grace's mother thinks about this and says, yes I suppose he would and looks off in the distance. This leading me again to think that, thats what may have happened about her, mom dictated what was going to happen there. I just thought of something, if Frederick really does turn out to be Grace's father, could his travels and melancholia be more about, maybe he loved Grace's mother very much when they were young and thats the guilt he feels over his wife's death even more than having a child outside of their marriage, feeling that kind of love outside their marriage? Could this love and that kind of emotional disloyalty to his wife cause him this much pain, more than any real reason he could be responsible for her death when he wasnt? Am I kinda saying the same thing you are here? Is that kinda what you mean?

[rkreilly]

I think Fredrick's unhappiness can be attributed to having to follow what is expected of you, instead of what he wants to do. We have covered many times the sense of tradition the Hartfords have- and so, Frederick as the only son and heir now, is expected to follow what the older generations plans were for the family. It is not what he wants, it is not where he belongs, and it leads to much unhappiness. I also think his business is suffering because he is not free to focus on the factory. His business ventures were never supported and actually discouraged by the family. He is trying to continue on his own ventures, and fulfill his parents wishes at the same time of being Lord of Riverton and carrying on the family name. We've even heard how he didn't get along with his first wife- another case of a son getting married because it was time and what his family wanted? But yet, he pushes his views onto Hannah, when she is desperate to move into more modern times.

Message Edited by rkreilly on 01-09-2008 08:44 PM

[nickco3]

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vivico1 wrote:

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nickco3 wrote:
I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine

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Nickco3,
on the last chapter, I just posted about Grace,s mum's reaction to Frederick, so I won't post it again here . But also about these lines about her mother being certain he would NOT marry again, when Grace said he would to please his mother, I believe Grace's mother thinks about this and says, yes I suppose he would and looks off in the distance. This leading me again to think that, thats what may have happened about her, mom dictated what was going to happen there. I just thought of something, if Frederick really does turn out to be Grace's father, could his travels and melancholia be more about, maybe he loved Grace's mother very much when they were young and thats the guilt he feels over his wife's death even more than having a child outside of their marriage, feeling that kind of love outside their marriage? Could this love and that kind of emotional disloyalty to his wife cause him this much pain, more than any real reason he could be responsible for her death when he wasnt? Am I kinda saying the same thing you are here? Is that kinda what you mean?

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yep sorta, kinda

[Carmenere_lady]

I admire Frederick in that he knows what kind of car he wants to produce and he knows his market segment. His vehicles are hand made and he buys the best parts. It got me wondering if Ms. Morton modeled Fred after one of the High End British car makers, like Rolls Royce or Bentley. Think I'll do a little google

[vivico1]

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nickco3 wrote:

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vivico1 wrote:

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nickco3 wrote:
I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine

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Nickco3,
on the last chapter, I just posted about Grace,s mum's reaction to Frederick, so I won't post it again here . But also about these lines about her mother being certain he would NOT marry again, when Grace said he would to please his mother, I believe Grace's mother thinks about this and says, yes I suppose he would and looks off in the distance. This leading me again to think that, thats what may have happened about her, mom dictated what was going to happen there. I just thought of something, if Frederick really does turn out to be Grace's father, could his travels and melancholia be more about, maybe he loved Grace's mother very much when they were young and thats the guilt he feels over his wife's death even more than having a child outside of their marriage, feeling that kind of love outside their marriage? Could this love and that kind of emotional disloyalty to his wife cause him this much pain, more than any real reason he could be responsible for her death when he wasnt? Am I kinda saying the same thing you are here? Is that kinda what you mean?

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yep sorta, kinda

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hehe,

[bookhunter]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:
I admire Frederick in that he knows what kind of car he wants to produce and he knows his market segment. His vehicles are hand made and he buys the best parts. It got me wondering if Ms. Morton modeled Fred after one of the High End British car makers, like Rolls Royce or Bentley. Think I'll do a little google

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So what did your googling reveal? I was thinking about this, too, especially in contrast to how Simion approaches business. Although, I guess the same things could be said about him--he knows what he wants to produce and his market segment. The two men represent different approaches to manufacturing and business. I imagine this was a conversation being repeated in many parts of the world at this time (and still is!)

Ann, bookhunter

[KxBurns]

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crazyasitsounds wrote:
It's interesting that all of Riverton's dynamics change at once. While all that change & modernization is sort of personified by Miss Starling, the most important change, in my opinion, is that Hannah is suddenly the oldest child. I think she feels she has to become a little more pragmatic & a little more responsible because of it.

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In reading this part of the book, I was reminded of a quote from Jane Eyre and I think it's especially apt in light of your comment about Hannah, and rkreilly's comment about Frederick (their situations really are so similar, don't you think?):

"Life, however, was yet in my possession: with all its requirements, and pains, and responsibilities. The burden must be carried; the want provided for; the suffering endured; the responsibility fulfilled. I set out." (Charlotte Bronte, Jane Eyre)

Do you envision either Hannah or Frederick approaching their new role with this same determination? Maybe resignation is a better word?

[ezraSid]

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nickco3 wrote:
I'm not sure if it was in this chapter or the last chapter. But anyway, did anyone think it was odd when Grace was telling her mom about Fredrick and Fanny, and how he will marry her, to make his mother happy. Grace's mother was so certain he will NOT marry again? Is it really because she was so fond of Penelope, or because they were a true love that could never be? Let me know what you guys thought of that part.
Christine

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Christine, I too thought about that section. It does seem that perhaps Grace's mum knows a bit more than she is sharing. Let's hope that she shares it with us soon!

[ezraSid]

I think part of the problem of Frederick is that he was never allowed to do what he wanted, truly. They didn't want him going to the same school as his brother, then they wouldn't let him go to military school because again they thought it would taint the "family name" if he were to do something untoward. To be honest, it seems like he was trying to do the right thing, trying to get approval from his father but that his father only had eyes for the Major. It is a heavy weight that he bears, the title, the estate, having the whole family relying on him now, when they barely cast him a glance growing up. I feel for the poor man and hope he finds some solace soon.


I also hope that poor alfred finds peace too.