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nhawkinsII
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

[ Edited ]
Actually I think Hannah decides to take Grace with her to London because her father told her "Marry him (Teddy)...and you won't be welcome here". Grace becomes Hannah's last touch with her old life. She adds a sense of comfort (familarity because of their long service relationship) and support to Hannah's new adventure in London. With Grace's remaining ties to her own mother in the village and to the service staff at Riverton she could also beocme a link to news about Hannah's family.

Mr. Frederick had no problem with Hannah's choice. Grace reminded him of all the "failures" in his personal life...an affair with a servant (most likely the real love of his life), a daughter he could never claim, a loss of credibility with his own parents (a real "second son case") as well as a "less than perfect" marriage with Penelope and a stoic stubborn relationship with his own children.

Message Edited by nhawkinsII on 01-10-2008 02:22 PM
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lilfisha
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Is Emmeline in love with Teddy? I don't think so. She thinks so though. She is still too young to know what love is. She has not had any real contact with him and is probably just gaga over most eligible good looking men.

Frederick tell's Hannah that she is welcome to take Grace with her. I believe he does this for both reason's, getting rid of a financial and emotional drain. The elders of the family have seen to it that what they see as his failures and mistakes are always in his face. I believe they see Grace as another of those. I also think that being a father he wants to make sure that Hannah is watched after after she leaves. The loyalty of servants was taken for granted. Even if he hadn't witnessed Grace's loyalty he could expect it to continue.

Grace has become a living character to me. She has both strengths and weaknesses. There are things I like about her and things I dislike. I do believe that some of the things I dislike about her were inherent to the times. Her non-maternal instincts are something that I think every mother understands. It is scarey as well as exciting becoming a mother for the first time. I have a difficult time accepting a mother's leaving her child willingly. I kind of like her eavesdropping though -- it makes me think that she would like to be Sherlock Holmes. Her becoming an archaelogist is interesting to me also. She became an Agatha Christie fan and if I remember correctly Christie's husband was also an archaelogist. There is definitely a similarity between detctives and archaelogists.
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nhawkinsII
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

JMO...I think Mr. Frederick really had Hannah's best interests at heart when he decided to discuss her upcoming marriage. Since the two of them were much alike, Mr. Frederick realized Hannah did not love Teddy...she loved the idea of adventure and life away from Riverton. I do not think his conversation was based on the loss of his business nor the class status of the Luxtons...he simply wanted to prevent his daughter from making a mistake. Unfortunately, he chose to command "'You are my child and you'll do as I say....I order you not to marry'" which had zero chance of success with Hannah.
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EbonyAngel
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

I found the book she had in her locket, Battle with the Jacobites to be telling. Is this the way Hannah feels her life is? Also, since the clasp was broke and the locket wouldn't close is that how Grace may have gotten it? (If it's the same locket.)
Frederick tells Hannah if she marries Teddy, she won't be welcome at Riverton. Giving what we already know, I wonder what changed.
I can't wait to see what the parcel is that Robbie has and to whom he is supposed to give it. I'm thinking Hannah.
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KxBurns
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



EbonyAngel wrote:
I found the book she had in her locket, Battle with the Jacobites to be telling. Is this the way Hannah feels her life is? Also, since the clasp was broke and the locket wouldn't close is that how Grace may have gotten it? (If it's the same locket.)
Frederick tells Hannah if she marries Teddy, she won't be welcome at Riverton. Giving what we already know, I wonder what changed.
I can't wait to see what the parcel is that Robbie has and to whom he is supposed to give it. I'm thinking Hannah.



Ooh, what is the significance of the book being The Battle with the Jacobites? I couldn't really make the connection myself.
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vivico1
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


bookhunter wrote:


crazyasitsounds wrote:


The problem with this kind of narration, from only one perspective, is that Grace has to eavesdrop if the reader is to get the full story. On one hand, it makes Grace seem more fallible, more human. On the other hand, it draws attention to the narration & makes the whole premise seem a little contrived.




And this narration technique is an irritation to me, sometimes. There are times it seems really artificial and contrived. For example, when Grace observes the first meeting of the girls and Robbie Hunter it is because she is in the library. She is in the library because she just HAPPENS to have been given this new task of dusting all the books. The others just HAPPEN to be in the library because of the Christmas tree, which just HAPPENED to be too large to go any where else.

I like it much better when (p245) the story of their courtship on the bridge comes to Grace because Hannah told it to her later.

It also makes me questions Grace's role in the story. Is she really a character in the novel, or just the narrator? We know much more about the personalities of the others than we do Grace, don't you think?

Ann, bookhunter


I have to agree with you Ann about Grace's part in all this anyway. And yes, she does seem to be in all the right places at all the right times. For someone who has had to take on extra duties she isnt missing much. When I started this book and we were first listening to the old Grace start to tell the story, I thought it would be more about her and her romances (Like Jacob in Water for Elephants - I loved both his stories as being an old man and his story about HIS life and the transitions from one to the other were much much smoother, not this BAM, here's 4 new answers you were waiting for and I have been building for endless pages, now let me go back to the first on them again and bring them forward too). I read some where on here, in my earlier skimming lol, that this is going to be a movie? What occurred to me just now as you said this Ann was, this really isnt Grace's story, shes just our CAMERA to the whole thing but does have some bit parts. I really thought, that Grace was going to be involved with someone in the manor and this was going to be about the tragedy that came from her love with someone above her station, not a second version of that because of her mother. She seems just "placed" here to tell the story so this far in the book.
I would almost prefer this told in the 3rd person omnipotent and let us inside everyone's head or hear the other's convos without relying on a servant to be in all places to us. The bridge scene really was this and much better. Even if we were to believe Hannah told Grace about this, it wouldnt be the way we saw and heard it and it was a much richer scene than most of them have been.

Also sometimes the sentence structure just falls all over the place and you have to reread what she just said, to either see who is saying it or what is being meant by it. This usually happens too after it had been flowing well for awhile and I dont get that.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

I think Teddy could be a good match for Hannah, if they were both to be married at some point anyway. At least they like each other and have the same interests and if Hannah wants out of this house and with someone she would at least enjoy being with, she seems to be picking the right one of the ones we have seen her with anyway. If she does fall for someone later, or get involved with Emmeline's beau (whose to say Teddy doesnt mess up and its Emmeline who becomes his mistress, not Hannah Robbie's mistress) then its all a wreck again. There really arent any happy people in this story are there, or even just a good self assured protagonist. As for romances, none, there just seems to be unending marriages of convenience or the sins of the parents being visited on the heads of the children as these women continue to NOT be in love but wind up pregnant and married.

As far as interesting revelations being coming along, sometimes I like the story but other times, well, its just an unending story. The revelations are just, oh ok, thats WHO that is mostly. I have not seen one of our "mystery" theories play out yet at all. Just the who does what. Well that makes it a story but nothing we havent been lead to anyway or anything that just grabs you as an OH MY GOSH moment. Well, there is still part three to read, maybe its more than just us hiding with Grace and evesdropping on things that could happen in any manor of the time with people who seem to be bored with it themselves LOL.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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bookhunter
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

(Trying to snip this...)


crazyasitsounds wrote:


The problem with this kind of narration, from only one perspective, is that Grace has to eavesdrop if the reader is to get the full story.




bookhunter wrote: ...

And this narration technique is an irritation to me, sometimes. There are times it seems really artificial and contrived. ...

It also makes me questions Grace's role in the story. Is she really a character in the novel, or just the narrator?


Vivico1 wrote:

...What occurred to me just now as you said this Ann was, this really isnt Grace's story, shes just our CAMERA to the whole thing but does have some bit parts. ... She seems just "placed" here to tell the story so this far in the book...I would almost prefer this told in the 3rd person omnipotent and let us inside everyone's head or hear the other's convos without relying on a servant to be in all places to us. The bridge scene really was this and much better.





Vivian, that is a very interesting perspective since the whole story is framed with this story of Ursula making a movie. We have said we don't like this technique of Ms. Morton's, but, now that I think about it, it is kind of cool.

A movie tells the story that only the CAMERA sees. We are limited to the CAMERA's perspective. Maybe that is why Ms. Morton tells the story this way. We are only meant to get a limited perspective.
(kinda reflects MY photography skills!)

Ann, bookhunter
who hopes you can follow the conversation with my hacked up posts!
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vivico1
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

[ Edited ]

KxBurns wrote:


EbonyAngel wrote:
I found the book she had in her locket, Battle with the Jacobites to be telling. Is this the way Hannah feels her life is? Also, since the clasp was broke and the locket wouldn't close is that how Grace may have gotten it? (If it's the same locket.)
Frederick tells Hannah if she marries Teddy, she won't be welcome at Riverton. Giving what we already know, I wonder what changed.
I can't wait to see what the parcel is that Robbie has and to whom he is supposed to give it. I'm thinking Hannah.



Ooh, what is the significance of the book being The Battle with the Jacobites? I couldn't really make the connection myself.


Karen, the war or battle of the Jacobites, was really about who had the right to the throne of England and Scotland. It was a movement to restore the Stuarts to the throne. So you have the two fold reference, the name of the game and that of who has the right to the manor, as we see played out in what sex was the baby going to be and that would decide it. I can see this as a battle of interest to role play for Hannah, since it involves women of power, from Elizabeth the first, to Mary of Scotland, to whose side had the legitimate heirs. I am drawn to stories of Elizabeth and her mother and also Mary.

The movement was called the Jacobites because that was the Latin form "Jacobus", the name of King James of England who was deposed as King, much as it appeared Frederick might be as Lord of the Manor.

Message Edited by vivico1 on 01-11-2008 10:21 AM
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Peppermill
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After - Jacobites


vivico1 wrote:
Karen, the war or battle of the Jacobites, was really about who had the right to the throne of England and Scotland. It was a movement to restore the Stuarts to the throne. ...

Vivian -- thanks for that major puzzle piece, one of the many I am still missing on this ... novel.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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vivico1
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After - Jacobites


Peppermill wrote:

vivico1 wrote:
Karen, the war or battle of the Jacobites, was really about who had the right to the throne of England and Scotland. It was a movement to restore the Stuarts to the throne. ...

Vivian -- thanks for that major puzzle piece, one of the many I am still missing on this ... novel.


Some of the symbolism is good. I like her choice of chapter titles for example, but sometimes we are lead to think something means something when it doesnt have any particular meaning at all and thats distracting. Like, we all thought how cool it was that they chose a Scottish thistle for the little icons in the breaks between paragraphs and things, because of their Scottish ancestry, the one on the locket, the one in the main rooms, and talked a lot about it only to find out from the publishers, it had nothing to do with the Scottish link or locket LOLOL, it was just taken from what the furniture of the time might have on it! And all the talk about the number 3 in this, well I havent read part 3 yet so dont know if thats a major thing or just one of those things we have blown up yet, but I dont see it. I am sure it will come up with the author. The thing about the box tho and what meaning the pictures on it had, I really didnt see it as having any hidden meaning, just the common motif of those Chinese boxes that I could see that the children would like. I still think thats all it was. Maybe we looked TOO hard during those first chapters for things that werent there. Kind of like I am still waiting for a real AHA moment in this book but just getting lead along with a basic story. Its good, but drawn out beyond needs.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Peppermill
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After - Jacobites

[ Edited ]
"Like, we all thought how cool it was that they chose a Scottish thistle for the little icons in the breaks between paragraphs and things, because of their Scottish ancestry, the one on the locket, the one in the main rooms, and talked a lot about it only to find out from the publishers, it had nothing to do with the Scottish link or locket LOLOL, it was just taken from what the furniture of the time might have on it!"

Vivian -- LOL! the more I look at that little icon and compare it with the Scottish Thistle link they provided, the more it looks like what we as readers have said! I'm not sure I believe the publisher. After all, both furniture and mantel or where ever it was might have a thistle pattern.

I am disappointed that we get nothing about the setting being a major producer of saffron, that so-valuable seasoning/spice. Have I missed some link somewhere -- somehow, it seemed English - Scottish related, but its one of those that belongs in the is-this-a-red-herring category.

What is a red-herring and what is not still mystifies me -- I have a collection of clues that I have not matched to open mysteries. As the back of the book says: "The novel is full of secrets--some revealed, others hidden forever." (I hope that is only foreshadowing -- not "spoiler" to you and other readers here. Sometimes I have felt as if {un-supported by text} speculation has provided more spoilers than carelessness.)

"Maybe we looked TOO hard during those first chapters for things that weren't there."

Well put!

Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-11-2008 01:27 PM
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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ezraSid
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

I think that emmeline would fall in love with anyone who comes along, but i wonder about her choices so far. Hannah was the first to meet Robbie, no matter that she didn't care for him at first meeting, but did meet him first and then emmeline being "saved" by him is suddenly "in love". Then when the Luxton's arrive on the scene, Hannah gets his attention only to have emmeline beg her not to marry him. Does Emmeline only want what Hannah might have? Wasn't it usually customary to marry of the elder girl before the younger? Emmeline just seems too flighty, too lacking in substance. She is just a little girl.
~Grace~
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Carmenere_lady
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

What, what, what is in the package that Robbie has in his possession?! Quite an ending to part Two, I thought. What a hook. If I were a fish I'd be caught and in the frying pan :smileyhappy: When the story seemed to be a little slow, this ending wants read more and read faster. I must confess I even tried to peak ahead but stopped myself in the nick of time
Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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JoyZ
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


Carmenere_lady wrote:
What, what, what is in the package that Robbie has in his possession?! Quite an ending to part Two, I thought.




Very intriguing indeed. I was also curious about Frederick's restlessness and visits by the doctor. On another note, I have changed my opionion about Lady Clemmentine, she at first seemed very shallow, but now I find her generous and genuinely concerned for others.
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Carmenere_lady
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After - Jacobites



Peppermill wrote:
"Like, we all thought how cool it was that they chose a Scottish thistle for the little icons in the breaks between paragraphs and things, because of their Scottish ancestry, the one on the locket, the one in the main rooms, and talked a lot about it only to find out from the publishers, it had nothing to do with the Scottish link or locket LOLOL, it was just taken from what the furniture of the time might have on it!"

Vivian -- LOL! the more I look at that little icon and compare it with the Scottish Thistle link they provided, the more it looks like what we as readers have said! I'm not sure I believe the publisher. After all, both furniture and mantel or where ever it was might have a thistle pattern.

I am disappointed that we get nothing about the setting being a major producer of saffron, that so-valuable seasoning/spice. Have I missed some link somewhere -- somehow, it seemed English - Scottish related, but its one of those that belongs in the is-this-a-red-herring category.

What is a red-herring and what is not still mystifies me -- I have a collection of clues that I have not matched to open mysteries. As the back of the book says: "The novel is full of secrets--some revealed, others hidden forever." (I hope that is only foreshadowing -- not "spoiler" to you and other readers here. Sometimes I have felt as if {un-supported by text} speculation has provided more spoilers than carelessness.)

"Maybe we looked TOO hard during those first chapters for things that weren't there."

Well put!

Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-11-2008 01:27

PM








Yup, I'd say we really overexamined those first two chapters. But, yet, there was so much to examine. How could we not?
Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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Peppermill
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After (Examing the First Two Chapters Closely)


Carmenere_lady wrote:Yup, I'd say we really overexamined those first two chapters. But, yet, there was so much to examine. How could we not?
LyndaSue -- probably only by moving on to other chapters more quickly. But, I would argue, such simply was not feasible this time around given the holidays and delays in the deliveries of so many of the ARCs. So, we live with overanalyzing. Worse fates exist. The only concern I would express is that stopping too long on each chapter may make HAR feel overly convoluted and just full of hints. On the other hand, I will also say reading it quickly insured that an ordinary reader like me has had to re-read portions to find clues and factoids that had been missed. (I allowed the story to just totally pull me in -- I compare HAR favorably to Thorn Birds by another Australian, Colleen Mccullough, which, after almost 30 years, is still my standard of comparison for quick reads. And, I apologize if I have said that too many times already on these threads.)
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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EbonyAngel
Posts: 276
Registered: ‎12-22-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



KxBurns wrote:


EbonyAngel wrote:
I found the book she had in her locket, Battle with the Jacobites to be telling. Is this the way Hannah feels her life is? Also, since the clasp was broke and the locket wouldn't close is that how Grace may have gotten it? (If it's the same locket.)
Frederick tells Hannah if she marries Teddy, she won't be welcome at Riverton. Giving what we already know, I wonder what changed.
I can't wait to see what the parcel is that Robbie has and to whom he is supposed to give it. I'm thinking Hannah.



Ooh, what is the significance of the book being The Battle with the Jacobites? I couldn't really make the connection myself.




From wikipedia
The Jacobite Risings were a series of uprisings, rebellions, and wars in the British Isles occurring between 1688 and 1746. The uprisings were aimed at imposing James VII of Scotland and II of England, and later his descendants of the House of Stuart, upon the throne after he was deposed by Parliament and the people during the Glorious Revolution. The series of conflicts takes its name from Jacobus, the Latin form of James.

The major Jacobite Risings were called the Jacobite Rebellions by the legitimate governments. The "First Jacobite Rebellion" and "Second Jacobite Rebellion" were known respectively as "The Fifteen" and "The Forty-Five", after the years in which they occurred (1715 and 1745).

Although each Jacobite Rising has unique features, they all formed part of a larger series of military campaigns by Jacobites attempting to restore the Stuart kings to the thrones of Scotland and England (and after 1707, Great Britain) after James VII of Scotland and II of England was deposed in 1688 and the thrones claimed by his daughter Mary II jointly with her husband, the Dutch born William of Orange. The risings continued, and even intensified, after the House of Hanover succeeded to the British Throne in 1714. They continued until the last Jacobite Rebellion ("the Forty-Five"), led by Charles Edward Stuart (the Young Pretender), was soundly defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746, forever ending any realistic hope of a Stuart restoration.
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nfam
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

I felt in the last chapter that Emmeline would play a major part in the tragedy and this chapter seems to emphasize it. I thought the whole scene where she tries to get Hannah to not marry Teddy was predicated on the fact that she wants him. She did flirt shamelessly at the ball.

I felt rather sorry for Frederick. He seemed so beaten and now he was losing another favorite possession. I think he did see Hannah as his. We see no fond interactions between them. She got him to laugh at the recital earlier in the book and she was clearly aping his mannerisms, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of understanding between them.

I'm undecided about why he's so quick to let Grace leave. I'm quite sure he knows she's his daughter. Perhaps he's tired of the daily reminder now that his world is crumbling. Clearly Grace's mother has no particular love for Lady Violet. I presume that she was the one who insisted on Frederick staying with his wife and having nothing to do with his illegitimate daughter.

Interesting motivations. Hannah is head-strong. She's marrying a man quite a bit older than she is. I wonder if this will help or hinder her in adjusting to marriage. From the hints at the end of the chapter Robbie is set to come back on the scene and the package from his dying friend almost has to be the book Hannah gave David when he went to war. Interesting developments.

Nanch
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nfam
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Does anyone think Frederick is trying to prevent his daughter from making a mistake that he made? That maybe he hopes to spare her the heartbreak of a marriage of convenience?...




I think Frederick knows Hannah very well because her head-strong nature is like his. He seems her rushing into marriage and wants to keep her from making the same kind of mistake he did. Obviously his marriage to Penelope, arranged by his mother was not a happy one. I believe he did fall in love with Grace's mother but was unable to do anything about it again because of his mother's intervention. I truly believe he loves Hannah and is trying to spare her.
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