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FrankieD
Posts: 73
Registered: ‎12-16-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



nfam wrote:
Does anyone think Frederick is trying to prevent his daughter from making a mistake that he made? That maybe he hopes to spare her the heartbreak of a marriage of convenience?...




I think Frederick knows Hannah very well because her head-strong nature is like his. He seems her rushing into marriage and wants to keep her from making the same kind of mistake he did. Obviously his marriage to Penelope, arranged by his mother was not a happy one. I believe he did fall in love with Grace's mother but was unable to do anything about it again because of his mother's intervention. I truly believe he loves Hannah and is trying to spare her.


As of right now...I think Frederick is selfish and cares mainly about himself...a pompous englishman that sees himself as a failure. I think he was always in over his head in everything he ever did...and it's all caught up with him.
" The longer I live...the more beautiful life becomes."
- Frank Lloyd Wright
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Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



bookhunter wrote:
... this narration technique is an irritation to me, sometimes. There are times it seems really artificial and contrived. For example, when Grace observes the first meeting of the girls and Robbie Hunter it is because she is in the library. She is in the library because she just HAPPENS to have been given this new task of dusting all the books. The others just HAPPEN to be in the library because of the Christmas tree, which just HAPPENED to be too large to go any where else.

I like it much better when (p245) the story of their courtship on the bridge comes to Grace because Hannah told it to her later.

I agree with you. I liked this technique at the beginning, but it's beginning to pall seriously. I get the feeling that Morton is playing with us largely because she can, not because it makes the story better. She's got one took -- well, really two: one, drop mysterious hints everywhere, and two, have Grace conveniently be in any place she needs to be to overhear whatever it is she needs to overhear because nobody pays any attention to the servants -- and she keeps using these tools ad infinitum.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



rkreilly wrote:
As far as people saying it's too much for her to be eavesdropping, just a convenience of the story, I disagree. When people live in the same house together, no matter who it is- there are always conversations that are interesting to get more of, or things that just happen to be overheard! I think this is a normal part of living in the same household and frequent exposure to the same people.

That makes sense from the perspective of modern houses, where it's hard to get any privacy what with small spaces and thin walls and hollow core doors. But when I was in England I stayed a few days in what had been a century or two ago our family home, and I can tell you that you could go days in there without meeting people except at dinner. The place was huge; I had my own bedroom and sitting room, and unless I went in specific search of people I could spend all day, other than meals, seeing nobody. ha the walls were thick and the doors heavy so that conversations were really private. The servants areas and family areas were separated by heavy baize soundproofed doors (to keep the bustle of the servants quarters from disturbing the family). It's hard to believe that in such a house an under housemaid would have been able to overhear much at all.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


Everyman wrote:


rkreilly wrote:
As far as people saying it's too much for her to be eavesdropping, just a convenience of the story, I disagree. When people live in the same house together, no matter who it is- there are always conversations that are interesting to get more of, or things that just happen to be overheard! I think this is a normal part of living in the same household and frequent exposure to the same people.

That makes sense from the perspective of modern houses, where it's hard to get any privacy what with small spaces and thin walls and hollow core doors. But when I was in England I stayed a few days in what had been a century or two ago our family home, and I can tell you that you could go days in there without meeting people except at dinner. The place was huge; I had my own bedroom and sitting room, and unless I went in specific search of people I could spend all day, other than meals, seeing nobody. ha the walls were thick and the doors heavy so that conversations were really private. The servants areas and family areas were separated by heavy baize soundproofed doors (to keep the bustle of the servants quarters from disturbing the family). It's hard to believe that in such a house an under housemaid would have been able to overhear much at all.


Well and u wont convince me that Hannah told Grace about the bridge scene in THAT kind of detail either. That was actually one of the best written parts to me and more believable because no one was really reporting it, we were just watching it ourselves.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



FrankieD wrote:


nfam wrote:
Does anyone think Frederick is trying to prevent his daughter from making a mistake that he made? That maybe he hopes to spare her the heartbreak of a marriage of convenience?...




I think Frederick knows Hannah very well because her head-strong nature is like his. He seems her rushing into marriage and wants to keep her from making the same kind of mistake he did. Obviously his marriage to Penelope, arranged by his mother was not a happy one. I believe he did fall in love with Grace's mother but was unable to do anything about it again because of his mother's intervention. I truly believe he loves Hannah and is trying to spare her.


As of right now...I think Frederick is selfish and cares mainly about himself...a pompous englishman that sees himself as a failure. I think he was always in over his head in everything he ever did...and it's all caught up with him.




Yes FrankD, I do agree with you.
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


kiakar wrote:


FrankieD wrote:


nfam wrote:
Does anyone think Frederick is trying to prevent his daughter from making a mistake that he made? That maybe he hopes to spare her the heartbreak of a marriage of convenience?...




I think Frederick knows Hannah very well because her head-strong nature is like his. He seems her rushing into marriage and wants to keep her from making the same kind of mistake he did. Obviously his marriage to Penelope, arranged by his mother was not a happy one. I believe he did fall in love with Grace's mother but was unable to do anything about it again because of his mother's intervention. I truly believe he loves Hannah and is trying to spare her.


As of right now...I think Frederick is selfish and cares mainly about himself...a pompous englishman that sees himself as a failure. I think he was always in over his head in everything he ever did...and it's all caught up with him.




Yes FrankD, I do agree with you.



I'm not sure I agree with you on this one - yet. I haven't seen enough of Frederick to really understand his actions or motivations.

My question is this: can you (and do you) feel sympathy for Hannah but not for Frederick?
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ashleym919
Posts: 8
Registered: ‎10-10-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

I can't say that I find Frederick a selfish character. I think he is a victim of unfortunate circumstances and probably a man who wallows in self-pity for things he cannot change (his inability to go to war or his lack of business sense).

However, I do believe he wants the best for his daughters and tried to dissuade Hannah from a marriage he knows is doomed. He sees himself in Hannah so much but he, like most Englishmen, is a horrible communicator. He tried to stop her from making a huge mistake the only way he knew how, by ordering her.

He will never live up to the shadow his brother left, and we can only assume he is unable to save the family since it is clear the great tragedy is coming.
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FrankieD
Posts: 73
Registered: ‎12-16-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



KxBurns wrote:

kiakar wrote:


FrankieD wrote:


nfam wrote:
Does anyone think Frederick is trying to prevent his daughter from making a mistake that he made? That maybe he hopes to spare her the heartbreak of a marriage of convenience?...




I think Frederick knows Hannah very well because her head-strong nature is like his. He seems her rushing into marriage and wants to keep her from making the same kind of mistake he did. Obviously his marriage to Penelope, arranged by his mother was not a happy one. I believe he did fall in love with Grace's mother but was unable to do anything about it again because of his mother's intervention. I truly believe he loves Hannah and is trying to spare her.


As of right now...I think Frederick is selfish and cares mainly about himself...a pompous englishman that sees himself as a failure. I think he was always in over his head in everything he ever did...and it's all caught up with him.




Yes FrankD, I do agree with you.



I'm not sure I agree with you on this one - yet. I haven't seen enough of Frederick to really understand his actions or motivations.

My question is this: can you (and do you) feel sympathy for Hannah but not for Frederick?


Sympathy??? I think that Frederick deserves as much as Hannah up to this point...since they both have serious issues with their self-esteem. They each want/wanted something but are not quite capable of getting it...and when finding love is challenging there is certainly a need for sympathy.
:smileyhappy:
" The longer I live...the more beautiful life becomes."
- Frank Lloyd Wright
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cocospals
Posts: 115
Registered: ‎12-25-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

My obervations:

1. Frederick suffered an unbelieveable blow that his factory was going under.
2. When speaking of Teddy and Hannah's upcoming marriage, Emmeline is trying to find reasons for Hannah not to marry. I think she is feeling abandament by her sister or is it jealousy?
3. I think Hannah is marrying Teddy because he can help her see the world.
4. Why Hannah is keeping the tiny book in her locket will play itself out later...I hope.
5. I think Frederick told Hannah to take Grace with her for two reasons, first is financial but I think secondly, he knows that Hannah has this secret bond with Grace.
Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there - John Wooden
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Linda10
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎10-02-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

As I glanced over the posts for this chapter, there have been a lot of opinions about why Hannah is marrying Teddy when she doesn't really love him. Well, what about Teddy? I, personally, don't think he loves Hannah. In an earlier chapter, Lady Clem is having a conversation with Teddy's father, hinting that, if Teddy is thinking about getting into politics, it would serve him well to have a wife. I think Hannah is marrying Teddy to get out of the house and have her adventures; I think Teddy is going to further his career.
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Linda10
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎10-02-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Dear Goingeast, Yes, I most definitely think of actors (or people I know) to play the roles of the characters in books that I read! I'm assuming you are young because I don't recognize the names of any of the actors and actresses you mentioned. If you've ever watched the PBS sitcom called "Are You Being Served," the one that takes place in a department store in England, I see Captain Peacock playing the part of Mr. Hamilton. I also see a former boyfriend of mine playing the part of Teddy, which doesn't help anyone but me, I realize. But maybe it explains why I don't trust Teddy. Ha, ha!
Inspired Contributor
goingeast
Posts: 89
Registered: ‎01-03-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



Linda10 wrote:
Dear Goingeast, Yes, I most definitely think of actors (or people I know) to play the roles of the characters in books that I read! I'm assuming you are young because I don't recognize the names of any of the actors and actresses you mentioned. If you've ever watched the PBS sitcom called "Are You Being Served," the one that takes place in a department store in England, I see Captain Peacock playing the part of Mr. Hamilton. I also see a former boyfriend of mine playing the part of Teddy, which doesn't help anyone but me, I realize. But maybe it explains why I don't trust Teddy. Ha, ha!




Hello Linda10,

No, I don't think I could be considered young except by someone 60 yrs. old or more. I just keep up with the movies and most actors and actresses. At least the good ones. Amy Adams is the girl in the current movie Enchanted. She has a great deal of potential as a serious actress and you will know her eventually. Surely you know Johnny Depp? As for the PBS sitcom you mentioned, I have not seen it. But if it ever comes on I will be sure to watch it if you recommend it. As for Teddy, I think it may have been implied in the book that Hannah may have discovered that he was homosexual. Remember she tell Robbie how she "realized" something about him even when they were first married. It's toward the end of the book. I think Teddy only married Hannah to further his career. It made him respectable.
Inspired Contributor
sgregg88
Posts: 48
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



psujulie wrote:
One other point of interest for me was that the first person Hannah told about Teddy's proposal was Grace. Of course, Grace was eavesdropping so there was no real surprise for her. Hannah says that she has a secret and that Grace has kept her secrets before. What I found odd was that Grace says that, "... I had the distinct feeling I had failed some osrt of test" with her response. Do you think Hannah wanted to be talked out of it? Or do you think that she wanted Grace to reinforce her decision?




Hannah believed that both she and Grace shared a common interest (in the secretarial classes) and that both shared the ideal that what they had in their life wasn't enough and wasn't what they wanted and they could (even secretly) go against what "should" be their place in life to attain what they want. Hannah marrying Teddy was what was expected of her, and of women in that time. Grace agreeing that it was a good match, a good idea, seemed out of character for who Hannah thought Grace was, but also seemed disappointing to Hannah - as if she had lost a fellow "partner in crime" who wanted more than her station or class determined. It seemed to Hannah to be an acceptance of what she should do, rather than what she would want to do. And in being disappointed in Grace, she wouldn't have to admit that she was really upset that she herself had done the same thing - replaced what she wanted with what was wanted of her.

Shelby
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sgregg88
Posts: 48
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


nfam wrote:
I felt in the last chapter that Emmeline would play a major part in the tragedy and this chapter seems to emphasize it. I thought the whole scene where she tries to get Hannah to not marry Teddy was predicated on the fact that she wants him. She did flirt shamelessly at the ball.

Nanch




I agree with a number of the posts that say that Em wants Teddy for herself, as she thinks she is in love him... whatever that means to her.

But, I think that the reason she doesn't want Hannah to marry him is not Teddy himself, but rather that it would mean that Hannah would leave her, just as David did. She is still upset over that.

As well, Hannah and David were closer to each other than to her. With David gone, she has replaced David as the closest to Hannah (she thinks - it could be argued that with the knowledge we have, Grace is actually closer to her - but Em wouldn't know that). If she marries Teddy, then Teddy becomes #1 (for lack of a better phrase) and Em moves into #2 position again - of course she would fight to be Hannah's favourite.

Shelby
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



sgregg88 wrote:


psujulie wrote:
One other point of interest for me was that the first person Hannah told about Teddy's proposal was Grace. Of course, Grace was eavesdropping so there was no real surprise for her. Hannah says that she has a secret and that Grace has kept her secrets before. What I found odd was that Grace says that, "... I had the distinct feeling I had failed some osrt of test" with her response. Do you think Hannah wanted to be talked out of it? Or do you think that she wanted Grace to reinforce her decision?




Grace agreeing that it was a good match, a good idea, seemed out of character for who Hannah thought Grace was, but also seemed disappointing to Hannah - as if she had lost a fellow "partner in crime" who wanted more than her station or class determined. It seemed to Hannah to be an acceptance of what she should do, rather than what she would want to do. And in being disappointed in Grace, she wouldn't have to admit that she was really upset that she herself had done the same thing - replaced what she wanted with what was wanted of her.

Shelby




This is an excellent point, and very well put! So much of this novel is about the discrepancy between what people want and what is wanted of them, isn't it?

Karen
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dhaupt
Posts: 11,865
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



ashleym919 wrote:
I can't say that I find Frederick a selfish character. I think he is a victim of unfortunate circumstances and probably a man who wallows in self-pity for things he cannot change (his inability to go to war or his lack of business sense).

However, I do believe he wants the best for his daughters and tried to dissuade Hannah from a marriage he knows is doomed. He sees himself in Hannah so much but he, like most Englishmen, is a horrible communicator. He tried to stop her from making a huge mistake the only way he knew how, by ordering her.

He will never live up to the shadow his brother left, and we can only assume he is unable to save the family since it is clear the great tragedy is coming.




I agree whole heartedly with you on this observation
Debbie
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kmliska
Posts: 24
Registered: ‎12-25-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

I believe Emmeline may have had feelings for Teddy. She seems to be a romantic and I think she just likes the thought of being in love and having male attention. I wonder though if she doesn't want Hannah to marry him because she knows she doesn't love him. Maybe she is just trying to help her sister to make a good decision.
Grace does seem to be getting a little more daring. She is taking a lot of chances by eavesdropping. I wonder if she will get caught in the future.
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CanTri
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



Carmenere_lady wrote:
What, what, what is in the package that Robbie has in his possession?! Quite an ending to part Two, I thought. What a hook. If I were a fish I'd be caught and in the frying pan :smileyhappy: When the story seemed to be a little slow, this ending wants read more and read faster. I must confess I even tried to peak ahead but stopped myself in the nick of time





I think he's returning the mini-book that's part of the game that Hannah gave to David on the train platform before he left (sorry, at work and don't have my book with me to give you a page number). And possibly this is how he gets initiated into the game, he askes questions when he returns it to hannah or emmeline (just my thoughts right now).
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CanTri
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Just a reminder to please keep your posts confined to the chapters we're talking about. I'm still not finished the book and working chapter by chapter so I can discuss here and in this chapter and the previous one a number of people have written or made insinuations about "the end of the book" or "later chapters", it's very irritating. Please take those discussion to the chapters they belong in, or at the VERY least write SPOILER in your heading.

Thanks
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



dhaupt wrote:


ashleym919 wrote:
I can't say that I find Frederick a selfish character. I think he is a victim of unfortunate circumstances and probably a man who wallows in self-pity for things he cannot change (his inability to go to war or his lack of business sense).

However, I do believe he wants the best for his daughters and tried to dissuade Hannah from a marriage he knows is doomed. He sees himself in Hannah so much but he, like most Englishmen, is a horrible communicator. He tried to stop her from making a huge mistake the only way he knew how, by ordering her.

He will never live up to the shadow his brother left, and we can only assume he is unable to save the family since it is clear the great tragedy is coming.




I agree whole heartedly with you on this observation
Debbie




He might want the best for his daughters, but doesn't know how to go about in the right way and make this or help this happen. He has ignored them I feel alot of their life.
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