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Wordsmith
maude40
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

On top of page 256 where Luxton is telling Frederick he's lost his factory and then tells him he has a friend who will buy the property to use for some trivial gift to his new wife, I thought this was demeaning to Frederick. What was so important to him could just be trivialized in an instant.
Yvonne
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Before the first war, most marrages in upper class were arranged. Marrying for love was not that common, so I don't see a problem with Hannah decision making in regard to marrying Teddy. After all Clem and Violet worked hard to make it happen, even though Frederick didn't want it. He had no real say in the matter. Marrying is women's issues, not for a father to care about. I think Frederick was quick to let Grace go for two reasons - Financial, he has only Emmiline and himself left. There isn't that much for the servants to do - he has Mr. Hammilton, Alfred, Nancy, Katie and Mrs. Townsend. That's a lot for two people, and Frederick doesn't have his factory any more.

kiakar wrote:
I don't think either sister knew what true love really was. I do not feel that Hannah should marry Teddy. She doesn't love him, she finds something in him that she thinks can make her happier. Such as to see the world and he is rich. Emmeline is definitely a romantic but she hasnt a clue how to love a person to the end. The bed of roses want last much past the honeymoon.
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



kiakar wrote:
One other point of interest for me was that the first person Hannah told about Teddy's proposal was Grace. Of course, Grace was eavesdropping so there was no real surprise for her. Hannah says that she has a secret and that Grace has kept her secrets before. What I found odd was that Grace says that, "... I had the distinct feeling I had failed some osrt of test" with her response. Do you think Hannah wanted to be talked out of it? Or do you think that she wanted Grace to reinforce her decision?




Of course Hannah would have doubts about Teddy because she doesn't love him just wants to use him for her advantage. Being young also, she wants some one else to approve a choice she knows is very wrong for her and Teddy. And as far as Grace easedropping, if you heard someone talking about marriage, wouldn't you listen, I know I would. Am I the only nosy one around here.?




Teddy is also using Hannah's family name to advance his political career. I am not sure he loves her either. He needs a wife and Clem made clear to his father.
MG
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Frederick is against the wedding directly because Teddy's father did not give him the needed load, and sold his business. Hannah made the comment about being lucky the bank didn't take it away...but still Frederick feels the sting of betrayal from the Luxtons. He says he doesn't want Hannah to join "them". This is a direct afront. I can understand Frederick' feelings in this matter.
MG


Librarian wrote:
I think Emmeline is infatuated with Teddy and infatuated with the idea of romance and marriage, not truly in love with him. I don't think Hannah is thinking right either. She doesn't love Teddy but thinks she will have her opportunities for adventure with him. Also I don't think Frederick is really thinking about Hannah's welfare in cautioning her not to marry Teddy. I think he has his own concerns about business and about not being left by his favorite daughter.
Librarian
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: What Robby brings back from the war

My guess is that he is bringing back the book that Hannah gave him before he went away.
MG
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



KxBurns wrote:

bookhunter wrote:
After re-reading the exchange between Hannah and her father on pages 261-263, I am struck by something. When Grace leaves the room, Hannah tells her that she will miss her when she moves to London. Then at the end of the arguement with her father, she tells him that she will be taking Grace with her.

It looks to me like this arguement is the "adulting" of Hannah. She is standing firm in her decision against her father (funny that it is a decision to get married and not a decision to get a JOB). When he tells her she won't be welcome at Riverton if she marries him, she just says, "Goodnight" to him.

It is as if this is a break in their relationship--especially of the parent/child relationship, and she is now on her own. And on her own, she makes an adult decision to take her "staff" with her into her new life. She doesn't ask, she just tells him. And apparently it is a decision she makes because of the arguement.

Ann, bookhunter



Wow, Ann, what a great catch, noticing that Hannah had not originally intended to bring Grace along! And if Grace had, in fact, failed some kind of test in not expressing disapproval for Hannah's engagement to Teddy, it's no wonder that Hannah suddenly aligns herself with Grace in the face of her father's anger and disapproval of her choice.

There have been several ideas as to the basis for Frederick's objection to the marriage: the loss of a favored child; resentment over the way the business relationship with the Luxtons ended...

Does anyone think Frederick is trying to prevent his daughter from making a mistake that he made? That maybe he hopes to spare her the heartbreak of a marriage of convenience?...




I think Hannah states she is taking her maid with her as a final lash out at her father. She has to win with afinity. It is a spur of the moment declaration. "I am going to marry Teddy AND I will take my maid.
MG
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: Where do your sympathies lie?

I feel for Frederick. He has lost everything. Emmiline is still there, but he knows she will eventually go. I think he may have believed Hannah when she used to say she would never get married. Maybe that is why he indulged her so. He may have thought that after she got older, she could help in his factory. That would have been another out come of Hannah's secretarial studies. He might not have objected if she told him...there could have been a benefit for him, but now there is nothing.
MG
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



maude40 wrote:
On top of page 256 where Luxton is telling Frederick he's lost his factory and then tells him he has a friend who will buy the property to use for some trivial gift to his new wife, I thought this was demeaning to Frederick. What was so important to him could just be trivialized in an instant.
Yvonne




Yes, I really thought that was really heartless of Luxton. Yes, Luxton seemed alittle cold.Somewhere on this board,we were discussing how the male characters are not as developed as the female characters but they are still heavily flawed as the other.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: Where do your sympathies lie?



fordmg wrote:
I feel for Frederick. He has lost everything. Emmiline is still there, but he knows she will eventually go. I think he may have believed Hannah when she used to say she would never get married. Maybe that is why he indulged her so. He may have thought that after she got older, she could help in his factory. That would have been another out come of Hannah's secretarial studies. He might not have objected if she told him...there could have been a benefit for him, but now there is nothing.
MG




It would have solved alot if these characters had talked to each other. Maybe secretly Frederick wanted Hannah to join him in his factory. but afraid to say so, because of the conflict of her being a girl. He would have had alot of opposition against the idea.
Contributor
readerrobb
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎12-29-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

What I couldn't shake was the sense that if you have an actor with a gun on stage in act one, then you need to have it go off in act three.

I still want to know why happened to David that would make Hannah laugh and cause her father to weep.

My problem is I want to know what happens more than I want to stop after each chapter and write about it. All my free time is taken up reading.

It's like I have to force myself to post here -- as you will notice, I'm very behind on the posting.
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



readerrobb wrote:
What I couldn't shake was the sense that if you have an actor with a gun on stage in act one, then you need to have it go off in act three.

I still want to know why happened to David that would make Hannah laugh and cause her father to weep.

My problem is I want to know what happens more than I want to stop after each chapter and write about it. All my free time is taken up reading.

It's like I have to force myself to post here -- as you will notice, I'm very behind on the posting.




I finally stopped stopping myself and read the entire book first and then answered the posts. The book is better that way. But whatever is best for you.
Correspondent
SandyS
Posts: 148
Registered: ‎12-28-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

Page 263 when Hannah states she will be taking Grace. Mr. Frederick's reply " You're welcome to her. Lord knows I don't need her here."

I'm trying to decide how Mr. Frederick meant this. Either 1) With no money I'll be glad additional staff is gone or 2) Based on my past it's hard to have Grace in my house.

Does anyone have a feel for what he's thinking here?

SandyS
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ELee
Posts: 418
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


SandyS wrote:
Page 263 when Hannah states she will be taking Grace. Mr. Frederick's reply " You're welcome to her. Lord knows I don't need her here."

I'm trying to decide how Mr. Frederick meant this. Either 1) With no money I'll be glad additional staff is gone or 2) Based on my past it's hard to have Grace in my house.

Does anyone have a feel for what he's thinking here?

SandyS




I think both apply. Outwardly, as a response to Hannah, he deflates her statement that she will be taking Grace somewhat by stating the obvious; in his financial situation, he doesn't need the expense of supernumerary staff. Inwardly, I think he is fine with having her leave because of his "past". He seems to be very stern when he has to deal with Grace (re: when Grace serves tea at the reading of the will), and I think that some of the anger and frustration he feels is directed toward Grace. Not that this is fair, but there are times when we all choose to direct negative feelings toward a subject that (in our minds) represents one of the sources of those feelings.
Moderator
KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


maude40 wrote:
On top of page 256 where Luxton is telling Frederick he's lost his factory and then tells him he has a friend who will buy the property to use for some trivial gift to his new wife, I thought this was demeaning to Frederick. What was so important to him could just be trivialized in an instant.
Yvonne



This is true. However, I can't help but think of how the desires and hopes of females at the time were frequently trivialized. Like Hannah's desire to work or travel - I do believe of she had mentioned this at the dinner as she had planned, the idea would have been summarily shot down by her father. In this, I have to disagree with you, MG. He may have hoped to keep Hannah around but not, in my opinion, to help with the factory. More likely, he had hoped to keep her as the lady of the house (a role for which she was clearly in training at the time of the dinner with the Luxtons).

I'm finding that so often in this book, characters are guilty of the same sins that are committed against them and garner my sympathy! Look at Frederick: I really felt pity for his predicament as the black sheep, browbeaten by his mother and less favored than his brother. But then he treats his own children much the same way.

Or Grace, who longed for the warmth she did not get from her mother, but then ends up having a similarly cool relationship with her own child.

Is the message here that we are victims of our upbringing, destined to repeat the mistakes of our parents? I'm not sure it's as simple -- or as bleak -- as that. Maybe it's more a device to highlight the fact that these characters live in a moral gray area?
Inspired Correspondent
Wrighty
Posts: 1,762
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After


KxBurns wrote:
This is true. However, I can't help but think of how the desires and hopes of females at the time were frequently trivialized. Like Hannah's desire to work or travel - I do believe of she had mentioned this at the dinner as she had planned, the idea would have been summarily shot down by her father. In this, I have to disagree with you, MG. He may have hoped to keep Hannah around but not, in my opinion, to help with the factory. More likely, he had hoped to keep her as the lady of the house (a role for which she was clearly in training at the time of the dinner with the Luxtons).

I'm finding that so often in this book, characters are guilty of the same sins that are committed against them and garner my sympathy! Look at Frederick: I really felt pity for his predicament as the black sheep, browbeaten by his mother and less favored than his brother. But then he treats his own children much the same way.



I agree that he expected Hannah to be the lady of the house. It seemed like he wanted her to slip into the roles her mother played tending to Riverton and was surprised when she didn't. He didn't really care what her interests and goals were. Just like his parents didn't agree with his choices as Karen mentioned. It was even worse for Hannah though because a woman wasn't suppose to desire an outside life anyway.
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Kimmi373
Posts: 39
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



bookhunter wrote:
She is standing firm in her decision against her father (funny that it is a decision to get married and not a decision to get a JOB.

Ann, bookhunter




I see this chapter as a wasted opportunity for Hannah for that exact reason! She was going to tell her father two chapters earlier that she was going to London to get a job as a secretary. During her exchange with her father she could have said...

Ok father, I have two options. I have been taking shorthand so I can to go to London, get a job and a flat of my own or I can marry Teddy and I still move to London. What do you think I should do?
I don’t want realism. I want magic!
~ Tennessee Williams, "A Streetcar Named Desire"
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

[ Edited ]

Kimmi373 wrote:


bookhunter wrote:
She is standing firm in her decision against her father (funny that it is a decision to get married and not a decision to get a JOB.

Ann, bookhunter




I see this chapter as a wasted opportunity for Hannah for that exact reason! She was going to tell her father two chapters earlier that she was going to London to get a job as a secretary. During her exchange with her father she could have said...

Ok father, I have two options. I have been taking shorthand so I can to go to London, get a job and a flat of my own or I can marry Teddy and I still move to London. What do you think I should do?



That would have been some show-down! How do you think Frederick would have responded? You know, I just can't see him allowing either one... although since he was a businessman himself and someone pointed out how unusual that was for someone of his class, maybe he would have seen Hannah getting a job as the lesser of the two evils.

Message Edited by KxBurns on 01-23-2008 10:51 AM
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katknit
Posts: 347
Registered: ‎01-27-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After



Kimmi373 wrote:


bookhunter wrote:
She is standing firm in her decision against her father (funny that it is a decision to get married and not a decision to get a JOB.

Ann, bookhunter




I see this chapter as a wasted opportunity for Hannah for that exact reason! She was going to tell her father two chapters earlier that she was going to London to get a job as a secretary. During her exchange with her father she could have said...

Ok father, I have two options. I have been taking shorthand so I can to go to London, get a job and a flat of my own or I can marry Teddy and I still move to London. What do you think I should do?




I find this a common theme in English novels - from Jane Austen, the Brontes, till now. The failure of the characters to communicate their thoughts, worries, wishes, feelings. I often find myself thinking, "just TELL him, for heaven's sake!"
No two persons ever read the same book. [Edmund Wilson]
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KathyS
Posts: 6,898
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After !!! SPOILER - END - PART 4 !!!

[ Edited ]
Gads, what would Pa say? Maybe if the choice was given to him, instead of giving him the ultimatum, he might have told Hannah to get a job...but:

One - I don't think she would have had this dialogue with her father, because she seems to be the one person who makes up her own mind, as a general rule (as her father does), when she wants to.
Two - She saw Teddy as the easy way out of her boredom.
Three - Frederick was a stubborn man!

I get so bored with these characters, as people, who can't seem to push on with their lives. This, of course [besides being reality], I know is the period women in history had to live. But I do get frustrated with this mentality, when I read it...don't you? :smileyhappy: Robbie was a breath of fresh air, if you want to call it that....The perfect romance, the perfect lover (almost)! I wanted to say - Get the heck out of dodge....RUN, RUN, AS FAST AS YOU CAN! LIVE YOUR LIFE! Everyone else around you is living theirs, why not you?! (although, don't sleep next to him when he's having a bad dream!)

KxBurns wrote:

Kimmi373 wrote:


bookhunter wrote:
She is standing firm in her decision against her father (funny that it is a decision to get married and not a decision to get a JOB.

Ann, bookhunter




I see this chapter as a wasted opportunity for Hannah for that exact reason! She was going to tell her father two chapters earlier that she was going to London to get a job as a secretary. During her exchange with her father she could have said...

Ok father, I have two options. I have been taking shorthand so I can to go to London, get a job and a flat of my own or I can marry Teddy and I still move to London. What do you think I should do?



That would have been some show-down! How do you think Frederick would have responded? You know, I just can't see him allowing either one... although since he was a businessman himself and someone pointed out how unusual that was for someone of his class, maybe he would have seen Hannah getting a job as the lesser of the two evils.

Message Edited by KxBurns on 01-23-2008 10:51 AM



Message Edited by KathyS on 01-23-2008 04:25 PM
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Ball and After

[ Edited ]

katknit wrote:


Kimmi373 wrote:


bookhunter wrote:
She is standing firm in her decision against her father (funny that it is a decision to get married and not a decision to get a JOB.

Ann, bookhunter




I see this chapter as a wasted opportunity for Hannah for that exact reason! She was going to tell her father two chapters earlier that she was going to London to get a job as a secretary. During her exchange with her father she could have said...

Ok father, I have two options. I have been taking shorthand so I can to go to London, get a job and a flat of my own or I can marry Teddy and I still move to London. What do you think I should do?




I find this a common theme in English novels - from Jane Austen, the Brontes, till now. The failure of the characters to communicate their thoughts, worries, wishes, feelings. I often find myself thinking, "just TELL him, for heaven's sake!"



I find this to be a theme with lots of modern media as well! :smileyhappy:

Of course, much of this is due to the necessity of creating drama -- if everyone told eachother their feelings or exactly what was going on, there would be no reason to keep reading/watching a film/etc. No misunderstanding, no story!

Sometimes it strains credibility but I don't feel that it does here. In my opinion, Morton gives her characters enough reason to keep their secrets, hide their feelings. What do you think?

Message Edited by KxBurns on 01-23-2008 11:36 PM
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