PART TWO: The Dinner

[vivico1]

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bookhunter wrote:
On page 210 Grace describes the table being set to dine "en famille (rather than in the formal a la Russe style to which we were accustomed)."

If anyone has more information on the distinction between the two, I would be interested. I gather that Mr Frederick has chosen a less formal style--better suited to him and to his American guests.

Ann, bookhunter

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I think thats basically it Ann, it would still be somewhat formal, after all, you have the servants there but the dishes, the clothes and silver would not be that of the grander dinners usually served for upper crust English whom you are trying to impress. As you read, there were not all the goodies of extravagance around either and heaven forbid! The master is cutting the meat, not a servant..they all gasps lol. I think this is to try to be more comfortable with the Americans but I just thought of something else too, there may be some business savvy behind how Frederick is doing this with someone he wants money from too, not just because they are Americans. That and the fact that from the comments on the meal, you know they dont have AS much of the fancier stuff that they used to. Would make one seem a bit poorer to serve war ration style foods that they are doing, on the fancier plates and in the fancier rooms, the contrast would show even more strikingly the need for money and we all know, banks dont want to give to those who are in need but those who dont seem to appear to need it at all! lol I think this was a good middle ground. "Formal, yet cozy"

[vivico1]

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bookhunter wrote:

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darma51 wrote:
I think the difference between the families is the difference between "old" money and "new" money.

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That is a good distinction. Except in this case, the "old" money doesn't HAVE any money. I think this becomes a problem somewhere a long the lines for many of these large estates in Europe, especially England. They cost so much to maintain (think of having to pay all those servants to dust the books in the library) and there is no income. Frederick is trying to create income with his factory, but isn't succeeding!

Ann, bookhunter

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You know, Frederick is not so much like the rest of his family. Can you imagine them cutting the meat for the guest! I think they would be more likely to agree with Simion (or Simeon aka monkey) about keeping the upper class the upper class and take from the lower and do what you need to do, than Frederick seems to be able to here. I started to wonder if he really would be so terribly mad at Hannah for wanting to strike out on her own as even she thinks, or would he be more willing to let her go, as he had. I think he likes Teddy better and actually sees him as more of a gentleman that his father and I think Hannah likes him too. He seems a bit intrigued with her different attitude than most of the girls of her age in England to and gets her jabs that his father does not.

[vivico1]

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KxBurns wrote:
You have all pointed out lots of great distinctions between the two families! I also liked the small detail of their sparkly white American teeth.

Someone mentioned the humor of this chapter, which is a welcome interjection amidst the awkwardness.

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Karen, the white teeth thing almost made me gasp! lol, because of all the things said here about the Brits, its, and forgive me if there are any here or tell us off for it, but one of the biggest "jokes" about the Brits is that they dont know what a toothbrush is. And this is TODAY! That was one of the things on another thread where someone mentioned the Americans being put down at one point in this book and I was saying, well look what is said about them here, thats the one thing I had in mind. I hear that one as a joke on tv whenever a joke about Brits is made. So to see her say that something about how white the American's teeth were made my eyes bug out and not know whether to laugh or gasp LOL! oh my!

[vivico1]

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lamorgan wrote:
I really liked this chapter. It truly demonstrated Hannah's personality, as well as her loyalties.

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Yes, I think i liked Hannah more in this chapter than about any for helping her father and also maintaining her cool doing it, she is really growing up. It will be interesting to see what she does with that from here on.

[vivico1]

Here is my take on Alfred. It was stated earlier in the book that he was shell shocked, or in modern terms, suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I dont think he has a head injury at all, PTSD in the midst of a panic attack can shake very much and have a hard time just concentrating on whats going on around them.

Also I think Grace thinking from his outburst that there wasnt really something between them that she thought there was, is wrong. He was just in that fight or flight mode, scared and probably trying to push her away out of fear over what is happening to him.

The fact that they say, he does these things at the strangest times, well it can hit anytime with no rhyme or reason but this one particular time, you do have this sudden sound of the champagne bottle exploding and if you ever heard one pop that big, it sounds a lot like a darn gunshot! Imagine how he reacts to sights and sounds now. At the end, when he is telling Grace all that he had seen that they wont go away, I think he sees all the mangled and dead bodies because of where he was sent, you had to just keep stepping over them to keep going on a charge. He says he was a coward. I think what may have happened is that he broke down on the field, he either ran or froze and they had to take him to the hospital for it so now he feels he was a coward to not be 'able" to handle it. Man I feel for him.

[JoyZ]

Ditto, Vivico1. I think he is trying to prevent her from getting too close now because he is feeling embarrassed at being a "coward".

[Everyman]

Morton's treatment of Alfred saddens me. I understand that it was very typical, and that the British had no idea how to deal with it other than to tell sufferers to stiffen their upper lips, but it is a vivid reminder of how wasteful of both human life and human happiness that war -- or indeed any major war -- is.

Somehow the deaths of Jonathan and David are less painful to me than the suffering of Alfred. First, I never felt as "close" to them as to Alfred. Second they're gone, and their sufferings haven't been detailed to us, whereas we have to watch Alfred, whom I at least cared for and about, suffering before our eyes.

Painful.

[Everyman]

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bookhunter wrote:
I loved how Hannah makes her little "digs" of social commentary without Mr Luxton knowing!

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It has a slightly Austenesque feel.

[Peppermill]

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vivico1 wrote:...I think they would be more likely to agree with Simion (or Simeon aka monkey) about keeping the upper class the upper class and take from the lower and do what you need to do, than Frederick seems to be able to here.

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Oh, my, Vivian, you just made me realize on what thin ice Morton has been willing to skate while playing with names and stereotypes. Banker, you say?

Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-12-2008 12:34 AM

[Carmenere_lady]

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Everyman wrote:
Morton's treatment of Alfred saddens me. I understand that it was very typical, and that the British had no idea how to deal with it other than to tell sufferers to stiffen their upper lips, but it is a vivid reminder of how wasteful of both human life and human happiness that war -- or indeed any major war -- is.

Somehow the deaths of Jonathan and David are less painful to me than the suffering of Alfred. First, I never felt as "close" to them as to Alfred. Second they're gone, and their sufferings haven't been detailed to us, whereas we have to watch Alfred, whom I at least cared for and about, suffering before our eyes.

Painful.

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Very well said Everyman, I agree with you. It's also the missed opportunity for happiness for Alfred and Grace.

[nfam]

The servants in the house are in some respects the most tied to the status quo. I think this is perhaps because the house is the world to them. While the Hartfords and Luxtons both live at least part of the time in the larger world, the servants must stay were they are. It's also true that their status is completely dependent on the role they play in the house. The butler and the cook seem to me to be the most anxious to keep things as they were, but then, they have the most to lose. Nancy has started to question the attitudes expressed by the butler because she is now familiar with the outside world.

The servants want to keep Alfred's problems below stairs. As Grace pointed out to Keira, the servants became a family for her. You try to take care of your family.

In this chapter, I felt we could see clearly the fact that personality in conflict with social position defines the scope of what the individual can achieve. Hannah wants adventure, but she is circumscribed by her place as a young lady of good family. Her desires in conflict with her position are her tragedy.

Nancy

[KxBurns]

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nfam wrote:
The servants in the house are in some respects the most tied to the status quo. I think this is perhaps because the house is the world to them. While the Hartfords and Luxtons both live at least part of the time in the larger world, the servants must stay were they are. It's also true that their status is completely dependent on the role they play in the house. The butler and the cook seem to me to be the most anxious to keep things as they were, but then, they have the most to lose. Nancy has started to question the attitudes expressed by the butler because she is now familiar with the outside world.

Nancy

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Wonderful observations, Nancy!

[ELee]

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bookhunter wrote:
On page 210 Grace describes the table being set to dine "en famille (rather than in the formal a la Russe style to which we were accustomed)."

If anyone has more information on the distinction between the two, I would be interested. I gather that Mr Frederick has chosen a less formal style--better suited to him and to his American guests.

Ann, bookhunter

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I was unable to find a description of "en famille" dining, but would assume that it might be comparable to what we know as "family style". "A La Russe" consisted of a very formal place setting and flatware placement that followed a strict protocol, and included a number of various courses that were served sequentially. I remember the correctness of the place settings being checked by Mr. Hamilton when Nancy and Grace laid the table previously.

[Everyman]

ELee wrote: "A La Russe" consisted of a very formal place setting and flatware placement that followed a strict protocol, and included a number of various courses that were served sequentially. I remember the correctness of the place settings being checked by Mr. Hamilton when Nancy and Grace laid the table previously.

I forgot to mention that this reminded me of a program I saw on PBS, probably originally a BBC documentary, about the behind-the-scenes activities of Buckingham Palace, from the man who raises the flag as QE enters the premises to the bootblacks, the servants who lay the fires, the archivist who decided which pictures and books to place around on the occasional tables (ones that had some relationship to the guests or purposes of the dinner), etc. They showed the setting of the dinner table for a very formal dinner (for the President of France), and the butler or whoever it was in charge of the setting of the table actually had little sticks he used to adjust exactly how far the plates were from the edge of the table, the distance between the glasses and the plates, and how far from the table the backs of the chairs were so that as you looked down the long table there was an exactly straight line of plates and chairs. The centerpieces, also, were measured to make sure they were precisely in the center of the table. I found it all fascinating but also, frankly, an extraordinary waste of time and manpower, but I suppose it matters to somebody. And both Hudson and Mr. Hamilton would have strongly approved.

[Linda10]

After reading all the posts thus far for this chapter, I would have to agree the most with Everyman. I, too, feel more pain for Alfred than David or the Major. And I don't mean that in any disrespectful way. Once a person has died, they no longer feel pain. But what awful demons torment Alfred from things that he witnessed during the war? How can anyone come back from any war and NOT be changed by it? Alfred always impressed me as being a sensitive person; and sensitive people feel things more than others. The war, for him, had to be hell on earth. I am SO sad for Alfred!

Also, Vivico1, I agree with you. I have read just recently that "shell shock" then is now what we call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Karen, on pages 212-213, Grace thinks, "I had perceived a closeness where none existed." I don't agree with her at all. Of course Alfred cared for her. When he wrote letters home, she says he wrote more and more of them to her. He's just so scarred from the war, he's unable to come back to the house the same person he was when he left. Again, I am so sad for Alfred and the life he and Grace could have had. How many lives are destroyed by war? I get angry thinking about it.

[cocospals]

My obervations of "The Dinner" chapter:

1. Hannah's taste for adventure is peaked when she is speaking to Teddy before the dinner when he is talking about his upcoming trip to Cairo

2. Hannah also discovers Simion's snobbiness, laborers should not dream of advancing further in society.

3. The scene with Katie, Mr. Hamilton and the champagne reminded me of something from I Love Lucy.

[gosox]

In the posting for the last chapter, someone mentioned about how Morton described the Americans. In this chapter, Simion Luxton is the caricature of the "Ugly American." I cringed when he was introduced, when he spoke and acted, and could not wait until he was no longer in the scene. If he is this family's hope, things do not look good!

[kiakar]

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Everyman wrote:
Morton's treatment of Alfred saddens me. I understand that it was very typical, and that the British had no idea how to deal with it other than to tell sufferers to stiffen their upper lips, but it is a vivid reminder of how wasteful of both human life and human happiness that war -- or indeed any major war -- is.

Somehow the deaths of Jonathan and David are less painful to me than the suffering of Alfred. First, I never felt as "close" to them as to Alfred. Second they're gone, and their sufferings haven't been detailed to us, whereas we have to watch Alfred, whom I at least cared for and about, suffering before our eyes.

Painful.

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I also think the ones that are not killed, are theones that truly suffer the most. Their are quite a majority that do suffer mentally from the things they see and have to do. War is so horrible. Why does it have to be. I wish someone could answer that. I saw a commercial on as a child, maybe I was thirteen or fourteen, and it was during the cold war with Russia. And Krusseft(leader of Russia at the time) and Isenhower(I think) I reallyjust remember the meaning of the commercial. They both had been brought to this mountain, in black liminsions and led up to the top of the hill, just the two of them and had several security guards, And they begin to fist fight and it means, why involve a nation or two or three in petty misunderstandments or in the case now, it is greed and power. My opinion only.

[KxBurns]

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gosox wrote:
In the posting for the last chapter, someone mentioned about how Morton described the Americans. In this chapter, Simion Luxton is the caricature of the "Ugly American." I cringed when he was introduced, when he spoke and acted, and could not wait until he was no longer in the scene. If he is this family's hope, things do not look good!

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And yet Simion is the Brit -- it is his wife Estella who is the American.

[ELee]

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KxBurns wrote:
And yet Simion is the Brit -- it is his wife Estella who is the American.

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He spoke in an accent of "gentrified northern English mixed with something else..."

I thought it was interesting that Estella had "unusually white teeth" and Teddy's teeth were even whiter than hers. We all know from "Austin Powers" that the British have notoriously bad teeth (kidding)!!!

Did anyone else take pause at the husbands name: Simion (simian)?