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lamorgan
Posts: 62
Registered: ‎01-19-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I like this new development of Ursula becoming a friend to Grace. It's a relationship I'm hoping the author will expand on as I continue to read the book.
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paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

Karen wrote: "What harm is there in that? Is Grace destined for a fall? Or did you interpret the connection alluded to by the Icarus fountain differently?

On page 172, what do you think is the source of Frederick's grief? Although his daughters believe he loves Riverton more than anyplace in the world, is it possible he doesn't want to be Lord Ashbury? If not, why not?"

Karen, I do think that someone is destined for a fall, but I don't think that it is Grace...I believe that one of the sisters will fall...

However, as I read this chapter...I casted Frederick in the role of Icarus...I felt that like him he was rash, foolish and daring...his attitude toward David's decision to go to war, is what burned him...his refusal to write him back also distanced him further from the son who was fleeing his home...I thought that maybe if he accepted David's decision, which he can't change anyway, his relationship with him would become much more fruitful...his bold and daring ideas in business, also may play a role in his "fall." His hardheaded nature, in his refusal to taint the quality of his cars with mediocre product, will put a strain on his ability to survive during this time of war...when everyone else is cutting corners, Frederick wants everything to remain pure...but what he fails to realize is that nothing will be as it was before the war when it finally ends...

It will be interesting to see how Jemima's pregnancy and the birth of her child plays out...because like Robbie, Frederick will end up being a Lord, even though he was written out of the will, if Jemima's baby dies or is a girl...In the margins I wrote, what goes around comes around...I found it funny that he is now in a situation, similar to Lady Asbury, who left her family and married for love, resulting in her being written out of the will, and became the Lady of the house anyway...

It was also interesting to "hear" Hannah ask about Grace's family...why would she choose this point in time to find out more about Grace's homelife? How would Hannah know that Grace looks like her Mother? She wasn't born when she was in service at Riverton...is this a hint that Hannah may know more about Grace's paternity than people believe? How did she know that the woman in the picture was Grace's mother?

I liked the lines..."But happiness...happiness grows at our own fireside...It is not to be picked in strangers' gardens." What is the significance of this line? Is Grace's Mother warning her about forgeting her place? Grace felt that her Mother was jealous of her, but I thought this was a naive thought on her part...I think her Mother missed working at Riverton as well as the opportunities she had there...and the loss of the person she loved...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
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cocospals
Posts: 115
Registered: ‎12-25-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I found the chapter to be quite interesting and very, very enjoyable. There were several threads throughout the chapter, the interaction with the girls, the visit to her mother, Jemima's babies birth. What touched me was the affection, warmth and respect Ursula showed Grace on her visit. And the feelings appear to me to be mutual. I think Grace truly likes Ursula.
Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there - John Wooden
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Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

[ Edited ]

lamorgan wrote {excerpt}: Yes, Grace probably did overstep her bounds, but it must have been difficult maintaining a distance with the only other young women she knows that are her own age. And, remember, Hannah thinks she already shares a secret with Grace regarding the secretarial school, although I never quite understood why Grace didn't tell her the truth at the beginning. Grace never seemed to have any fears that the truth would come out....
lamorgan -- I presumed Grace was afraid of losing her book. For her, it had been an expensive purchase. She couldn't risk Mr. Hamilton confiscating it. Then, Hannah recovered from her nervousness and just sort of ran over Grace's confusion. (pp. 115-117)

Or, is there something else I'm missing?

I just noted another passage where Grace is thrilled with having a supposed secret to share with Hannah. (See pp. 121-122.)

Message Edited by Peppermill on 01-08-2008 10:32 PM
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



lamorgan wrote:
I like this new development of Ursula becoming a friend to Grace. It's a relationship I'm hoping the author will expand on as I continue to read the book.





I like that also. When a character is introduced, you make your own judgments on how that character perceives things, with less you know, you might make a slight error in judgment but as a character is described more your assessment of her changes. I thought at first that Ursula was just a uppity girl trying to get famous but as Grace gets to know her, you realize that Ursula is quite the little human being. She has lived some in her life also.
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Tarri
Posts: 457
Registered: ‎02-26-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I liked Hannah more when she insisted that Grace drink the lemonade and asked about Alfred, I think Hannah is learning that being upperclass does not mean that you are better than others. I was not surprised when the sisters tried to get information from Grace, nor was I surprised that she told them as they are "the family" and therefore she is obligated to do as the family asks.

It was telling how Grace's mother reacted to the news that Fanny was trying to marry Frederick. Also interesting that Jemima thought Grace was Hannah.
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julyso
Posts: 67
Registered: ‎12-04-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



lamorgan wrote:
Yes, Grace probably did overstep her bounds, but it must have been difficult maintaining a distance with the only other young women she knows that are her own age. And, remember, Hannah thinks she already shares a secret with Grace regarding the secretarial school, although I never quite understood why Grace didn't tell her the truth at the beginning. Grace never seemed to have any fears that the truth would come out.
I also thought it interesting that Hannah kept pumping Grace for information about Alfred. It's odd that she would be that concerned about another one of the household servants, don't you think


Maybe Hannah overstepped the boundaries, as well. She also forgot Grace was a servant (sometimes)and treated her as a girlfriend.
Julie
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EbonyAngel
Posts: 276
Registered: ‎12-22-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



Tarri wrote:
I liked Hannah more when she insisted that Grace drink the lemonade and asked about Alfred, I think Hannah is learning that being upperclass does not mean that you are better than others. I was not surprised when the sisters tried to get information from Grace, nor was I surprised that she told them as they are "the family" and therefore she is obligated to do as the family asks.

It was telling how Grace's mother reacted to the news that Fanny was trying to marry Frederick. Also interesting that Jemima thought Grace was Hannah.




I think this part brought out again how a like Grace is to the sisters.
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I don't think Grace overstepped her bounds accepting the lemonade, what else was she to do and sometimes the masters did offer things to the servants. I don't worry as much about did she overstep her bounds in telling what she heard to Hannah, but I do worry for her for doing it. Hannah is a very strong person and you dont want her on your bad side. To outright acknowledge that you listen and hear things, especially to Hannah, who will have her own way, could come back to haunt her. I already worry what Hannah is going to do when she finds out Grace is not part of this special secret of learning shorthand and stuff that she thinks she is. Its a lie to try to be close, and I understand Grace wanting so much to be a part of these girls, but yes I think as with Icarus, she is flying to close to the sun, and one that could be cruelly burning too.

This chapter to me reinforces my feelings that Ursula is up to something more than she says. I could be completely wrong in all this but there is something dark about her searching out Grace and I do think that whole interview with her "mistake" of leaving the phone on and having to leave the room, was planned. Grace notices after Ursula's reaction to her mentioning her grandson, that there seemed to be something new behind Ursula's eyes, "A shadow I hadn't noticed earlier". Maybe its nothing, maybe Ursula is going to actually become close to her, missing her own grandmother and wanting to know more about her, she starts to see Grace as kind of a substitute, but I will have to wait and see I guess huh lol. :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I wonder if with Frederick, if, while allowing himself to read the letter from his son where no one else will see, he does feel a love for his son that he won't acknowledge out loud and is praying he comes back alive. Maybe too, about becoming Lord of the manor, he is having conflicting feelings too. One is that for once he would be the one who counts as a man in the house, and that could make him a bitter master too tho, but he may also as some have said, really not want to be that very thing.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I first thought Grace's mother had moved them into the sitting room with it done up, because someone was coming to visit, like maybe her mum had found an older man she was interested in to help each other through their olders years, a boyfriend or companion of needs lets say. But then when that didnt happen, and because of their talk, I wonder if maybe her mom was just trying to show Grace that she saw her as a budding adult, so she should sit where the adults do in their home and that would help reinforce her talk about watching what she does and knowing her place, because shes starting to get to a dangerous age that she knows too well herself.

Also, dont you think her mom's reaction to the news of Frederick and him not getting married and her curiousity about the times Grace is around him, is just further proof that he may be the one she loved, or at least had Grace by? Or that Morton is at least continuing to lead us to that conclusion?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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crazyasitsounds
Posts: 41
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



KxBurns wrote:
One thing I found really significant in this chapter was Emmeline and Hannah's open acknowledgement that Grace, a servant in their home, was privy to a conversation between Lord Gifford and the family. And the fact that Grace actually responds by providing information about the meeting! To me, this represents a breakdown in the invisible line between servant and employer. Grace is now, like mythical Icarus, flying too close to the sun and has become too entwined with the Hartford family.



I agree. I was worried from the beginning about Grace getting too attached to the Hartfords. It's one thing for her to wish she could participate in their games & be a part of the family, quite another to try to make it happen. I can't help but get the feeling that Grace is setting herself up for disappointment (though it probably wouldn't be much of a story if Grace didn't somehow become involved in the action).
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



Tarri wrote:
I liked Hannah more when she insisted that Grace drink the lemonade and asked about Alfred, I think Hannah is learning that being upperclass does not mean that you are better than others. I was not surprised when the sisters tried to get information from Grace, nor was I surprised that she told them as they are "the family" and therefore she is obligated to do as the family asks.

It was telling how Grace's mother reacted to the news that Fanny was trying to marry Frederick. Also interesting that Jemima thought Grace was Hannah.




That sounds all well and good,Tarri, but the character of Hannah doesn't seem to be the girl who hands a servant a glass of lemonade to be nice. I am sure she is compliplainting something else in that little devious mind of hers. Don't get me wrong, I like Hannah, but she is a user. She has learned from the household of people how to play each person to her advantage.
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



vivico1 wrote:
I first thought Grace's mother had moved them into the sitting room with it done up, because someone was coming to visit, like maybe her mum had found an older man she was interested in to help each other through their olders years, a boyfriend or companion of needs lets say. But then when that didnt happen, and because of their talk, I wonder if maybe her mom was just trying to show Grace that she saw her as a budding adult, so she should sit where the adults do in their home and that would help reinforce her talk about watching what she does and knowing her place, because shes starting to get to a dangerous age that she knows too well herself.

Also, dont you think her mom's reaction to the news of Frederick and him not getting married and her curiousity about the times Grace is around him, is just further proof that he may be the one she loved, or at least had Grace by? Or that Morton is at least continuing to lead us to that conclusion?




Wow! we were on the same wave lengths again! Wow! How can this happen!
Contributor
mrstreme
Posts: 15
Registered: ‎12-20-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I agree. Frederick sees being master and lord of the house to be too much responsibility - but is he really that good at business? I don't get the impression that his parents were very supportive of Frederick - that he was the wild child and his brother did everything perfectly. Perhaps he has an inferiority complex. Plus, he may never have imagined that he would come Lord Ashbury, so he never mentally prepared for it.
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Linda10
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎10-02-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

I am going to have to agree with Vivico1 and Kiakar. I, too, think that Grace's father is Frederick. It would also explain why her mother had to leave the employ of the Hartfords (in disgrace, I'm sure). Why else would she be taking such an interest in Frederick, in particular, when Grace comes to visit?

That also would mean that Hannah and Emmeline are Grace's half-sisters. And that would explain the feeling that Grace had the first time she met the children in the nursery. She talked about an excitement and a closeness that she couldn't put her finger on. Maybe Hannah senses something special too; (hence insisting that she have a glass of lemonade, for example?)

Well, as you said, we shall see if this is only what Kate Morton wants us to think!
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ROCKETRAY55
Posts: 91
Registered: ‎09-28-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



Linda10 wrote:
I am going to have to agree with Vivico1 and Kiakar. I, too, think that graces father is Frederick. It would also explain why her mother had to leave the employ of the Hartfords (in disgrace, I'm sure). Why else would she be taking such an interest in Frederick, in particular, when Grace comes to visit?

That also would mean that Hannah and Emmeline are Grace's half-sisters. And that would explain the feeling that Grace had the first time she met the children in the nursery. She talked about an excitement and a closeness that she couldn't put her finger on. Maybe Hannah senses something special too; (hence insisting that she have a glass of lemonade, for example?)

Well, as you said, we shall see if this is only what Kate Morton wants us to think!


I too agree with the above posters, that Frederick is Gace's father, that is were the clues are leading us. With this being said, it leads me to wonder if Hannah knows this and is playing a "game" with Grace to get her to find the truth? Only the next chapters will tell....
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nfam
Posts: 231
Registered: ‎01-08-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus

Clearly, because he's holding the letter, Frederick is grieving for his relationship with David. His son ran off to war without telling him. His older brother and now his father are dead. David could be next. What father wouldn't cry (or at least feel anguish?)?

In this chapter I feel we get a much clearer picture of the relationship between Grace's mother and Frederick. I have to admit, the author's ruse is running a bit thin at this point. Grace's mother doesn't expect Frederick to remarry because she though he would be faithful to the memory of what they had, or at least wouldn't want to risk another unhappy marriage. This is one place where I think the author strains our credulity by having Grace imagine that her mother loved, or was close to Penelope.

I agree the the statue of Icarus and the name of the chapter indicate that Grace is in danger of flying too close to the sun and getting burned. She is starting to feel a part of the Hartford family, but she isn't. That's clear from the way the sisters view her. They want information and they know she was there. It's another indicator of the changing times. They don't subscribe to the polite fiction that servants can't hear what their betters are saying.

I think this is a very revealing chapter. It sets the stage for Grace becoming a part of the secret.

Nancy
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ezraSid
Posts: 34
Registered: ‎12-16-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



Tarri wrote:
I was not surprised when the sisters tried to get information from Grace, nor was I surprised that she told them as they are "the family" and therefore she is obligated to do as the family asks.




I honestly don't think that Grace really told them anything. She admitted to being in the room, but the rest, the girls kind of guessed at and Grace simply didn't deny what they asked, she did give affirmation, but to be quite honest, she didn't tell them anything they didn't guess at already.
~Grace~
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Fall of Icarus



KxBurns wrote:
One thing I found really significant in this chapter was Emmeline and Hannah's open acknowledgement that Grace, a servant in their home, was privy to a conversation between Lord Gifford and the family. And the fact that Grace actually responds by providing information about the meeting! To me, this represents a breakdown in the invisible line between servant and employer. Grace is now, like mythical Icarus, flying too close to the sun and has become too entwined with the Hartford family.

Grace reaches another turning point in this chapter, becoming a guest in her mother’s home, someone who needs to be impressed. And it is after this visit that she thinks, "But the Hartfords were not strangers. And if I took some happiness from working near them, listening to their conversations, minding their beautiful dresses, then what harm was there in that?" (p.167).

What harm is there in that? Is Grace destined for a fall? Or did you interpret the connection alluded to by the Icarus fountain differently?

On page 172, what do you think is the source of Frederick's grief? Although his daughters believe he loves Riverton more than anyplace in the world, is it possible he doesn't want to be Lord Ashbury? If not, why not?

Karen




Frederick's grief: He was reading David's letter. The sisters had read it and commented on how their father refused to read any of David's letters. At the end of the chapter Frederick has David's letter in his hand. What was the sketch on the letter. Maybe it was a model of an aerplane. In the previous chapter Frederick has a conversation with the lawyer about his business and he says he has switched his lines from motor car to planes. The lawyer talks about mass produced American planes, and Frederick insists that his are better.
MG
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