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isugirl
Posts: 15
Registered: ‎12-19-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

The one part that stuck out between the exchange of Grace and Keira was how Grace noticed Keira wearing tattered jeans with loose threads hanging from the pockets. Sylvia had informed her that rags were no longer a sign of poverty. It facinates me how society has turned this around from what it once was. People used to work so hard so they wouldn't have to wear rags as it was a sign of poverty, in contrast to today's young generation who wants everything hand to them and the more holes in your jeans the better!
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July


KxBurns wrote:

ELee wrote:
At first I felt bothered by the fact that Ursula only wanted Grace’s input regarding the authenticity of the set, but after rereading pp 13-14 I gained more perspective. I think that Ursula probably feels that she has firsthand information that has been passed down through her family because her great-grandmother was at Riverton the night of the episode. Her “family legend” in combination with the research she’s done would take care of the “gentry” side of the story, leaving the “servant” details to be corroborated by Grace.
This is very true -- from Ursula's point-of-view, she has the more direct connection to the story via her family ties. She has no way of knowing just how intimately Grace is acquainted with the details of the story! Karen
But I still like Vivian's (VIVCO's) hypothesis elsewhere that Ursula may not be as innocent as she seems about trying to get information from Grace. Ursula talks about the police reports being lacking. (p. 13) She leaves Grace's room for a phone call when Keira visits. Ursula may apologize for Keira's connections and aggressiveness, but Ursula has a film she wants to be successful. Still, Grace is wily and knows how to sidestep.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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rstjm4
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

I did not like the way Kiera talked to Grace, it seemed that she wanted Grace to have a more important role and be seen more than what she was. She doesn't seem to understand class structure of those days and it seems that she thinks of Grace as a companion to the girls. I also found it interesting that she thinks its rude that Emme didn't thank her or that Grace didn't show enough emotion when Emme was hurt. I think in those early days Grace did keep her distance, but as she became older she became closer to the girls in a way. They were the same age and there had to be some interaction between them besids the typical servant/master relationship.

The photograph was the last with Lord Hartford in it and it seems to have brought back many memories to Grace, including the birth of Jemimas baby, and who becomes the heir. Lord Frederick seems to take the deaths of his brother and father very well, and I would wonder about that too. I am still wondering why Frederick has taken such an interst in Grace.

The clock being stopped to mark the passing of the Lord's death, I think, is a mourning thing where after a certain amount of time they are restarted. I have never heard that anywhere else, but that would be most logical to me.
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rstjm4
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

Ooh...I never thought of Fredrick being the result of a liason with a servant. That could be part of the reason the Lord was more partial to the major. Wow, that would make sense wouldn't it!
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CanTri
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

Was no one else disturbed by Ursula kissing Grace? This is only the second time she has met her and the first time ended abruptly. This seems like a pretty intimate gesture, especially seeing how rigid Ruth and Grace are with each other. Grace says that it "utterly surprised her" (p.135). I found it an odd gesture.

I was amused by another sentence when Grace is describing Keira; "A face made to sell chocolates."

And we're back to the number 3 when Grace sends Sylvia to get tea and then regrets sending her away. "we remaining three share a moment's silence".

I had to look up what a "biro" was on p. 139. Keira was running hers down her script. Turns out it's a ball point pen.

A few other sentences that stood out:
"Our hands meet for an instant and she withdraws quickly, frightened she might catch something. Old age perhaps." :smileyhappy:

"There we all remained, all in black, eyes on the camera box and thoughts in the churchyard valley".
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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July


CanTri wrote:
Was no one else disturbed by Ursula kissing Grace? This is only the second time she has met her and the first time ended abruptly. This seems like a pretty intimate gesture, especially seeing how rigid Ruth and Grace are with each other. Grace says that it "utterly surprised her" (p.135). I found it an odd gesture.




I wasnt disturbed by the kiss after that talk and her leaving, if she meant it, felt it. Grace didnt mind. What does bother me is that sometimes people will do that with the elderly almost like they have the right to, just as they do a child. And the elderly are quite often seen as just a child, to be treated as such and respected for their opinions about as much. Its not much different than people thinking its ok to put their hand on the belly of a pregnant woman they dont know, like this is perfectly acceptable just "because". I have known more women who hate this so much by strangers, they wouldnt do it if you werent pregnant or they could get the crap knocked out of them, or even arrested .
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Wordsmith
maude40
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

I think part of Kiera's treatment of Grace is her being uncomfortable with a person of Grace's age. Page 142, "
Our hands meet for an instant and she withdraws quickly, frightened she might catch something. Old age perhaps."
I love the way Ms. Morton portrays old age. It's so real, so present as I read about Grace.
Yvonne
Wordsmith
maude40
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

On page 145 as Grace is thinking about her letter from Alfred, she comments, "I thought then of something else Alfred had said. Something that had me worried about our places." This seems to be another foreshadowing of something to come.
Yvonne
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maude40
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

I loved the line at the bottom of page 147, "....blooms of pink rhododendrons, creamy clematis and sprigs of jasmine, now wept from their vase in sad despondency. The fragrance of jasmine filled the closed room with a pungency that threatened suffogation." This image gives the room such a sad and heavy feeling. I love Ms. Morton's writing. Her words read so easily but impart so much detail.
Yvonne
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maude40
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

The second line of the chapter struck me. Grace is the only one left who can answer questions about this tragic family, yet as others on this board have said noone really consults her for facts. Maybe they just feel she is too old to remember or they don't want to upset her. The line, "Regardless how peripheral one's connection to calamity, it would appear to live long enough is to be rendered an object of interest." This says to me she is happy someone is interested in her yet she doesn't give up much to them. They are outsiders and don't have a right to the secrets of the family.
Yvonne
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mrstreme
Posts: 15
Registered: ‎12-20-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

I totally agree that Grace is still playing the loyal servent in the conversation - not revealing too much and keeping the secrets of the Hartford family. I think that Grace does want to spill the beans - so to speak - but on her terms and to who she wants to. The story of The House of Riverton is very much Grace's legacy, and I think she's being understandably cautious on who she tells about it.
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mrstreme
Posts: 15
Registered: ‎12-20-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

Is it that she's too old to be consulted, or because she was *just* a servant? It may relate to class issues as well as old age. Plus, Grace had done such a remarkable job making her own life - far removed from being a maid - that perhaps people didn't make the connection between Grace as a servant and Grace after her experiences at Riverton. Just a thought...
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KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July


CanTri wrote:
Was no one else disturbed by Ursula kissing Grace? This is only the second time she has met her and the first time ended abruptly. This seems like a pretty intimate gesture, especially seeing how rigid Ruth and Grace are with each other. Grace says that it "utterly surprised her" (p.135). I found it an odd gesture.




Ursula is the only character we've seen so far who is open with her emotions and affections. I think she is developing a genuine attachment to Grace.

In this way she is contrasted with many, if not all, of the other characters. I'm thinking specifically of Hannah saying goodbye to David: "...he looked as if he wanted to kiss her cheeks, hug her, but that was not the way it went with them" (p. 130). In the same scene, Alfred does give Grace a kiss on the cheek so perhaps he is the exception to the rule.

But Ursula's open display of affection is also a sign of the changing times, isn't it?
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fordmg
Posts: 546
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July



nadine1 wrote:
Yes, Keira's disrespectful behavior toward Grace during their meeting is apalling. However, Kiera's behavior is right on the mark according to an adolescent psychology course that I took and my current intereactions with my younger college age co-workers. One passes through adolescents when one accepts responsibility for one's own actions and does not blame others.

Grace is demonstrating her loyalty to the Hartfords and/or her service profession by keeping her secrets until after her death.




If Ursula would have stay in the room, she could have moderated the interview and Keira would not have come off so badly.
MG
Correspondent
SandyS
Posts: 148
Registered: ‎12-28-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July


ezraSid wrote:
As for stopping the clock, not all families had the luxury of having doctors attend to the death of a family member. Clocks were stopped when the person died so when the doctor arrived, it was noted when the person died.

Hope this helps.




I find this rather interesting. There usually are logical reasons for the "rituals" that have carried through the times.

Thanks for this info.

SandyS
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Jodi
Posts: 65
Registered: ‎07-16-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July

[ Edited ]
[edited by moderator] I think Keira is one rude girl. I thought the photograph part was interesting.

Message Edited by KxBurns on 01-16-2008 06:14 PM
Moderator
dhaupt
Posts: 11,865
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July



Jrdnstrttn wrote:
Just an observation...
Page 136: "I am aware that Sylvia still lurks by the open door, wiping the dust from the jamb in a show of duty designed to disguise her curiosity."
This reminds me of Grace observing the children in many different scenes. Though they weren't movie stars at the time, maybe it was like being close to movie stars for 1914/1915 Grace.
I'm also bothered by Ursula not asking Grace for her input about the movie and it's content. I'm sure she is very interested in the subject, being that the story has been passed down to her through generations. It seems to me that she'd fall all over herself to learn all she could from a living person who had been there.




I think Sylvia is being sneaky here.
Ursula I think is just trying to figure Grace out at this point, you know just how much does she know about this night in question.
Debbie
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kmliska
Posts: 24
Registered: ‎12-25-2007
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Re: PART TWO: The Twelfth of July



mrstreme wrote:
Is it that she's too old to be consulted, or because she was *just* a servant? It may relate to class issues as well as old age. .




I also think it may be because she was just a servant. When you think of a family you don't usually think of their servants so I am sure many people wouldn't even think to talk to Grace.
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LeftBrainer
Posts: 55
Registered: ‎10-27-2006
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Re: Adapt and survive, or not

The British upper class is not prepared for the change that is happening to the world. The industrial revolution is changing the world and they are clinging to tradition.
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kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Adapt and survive, or not



LeftBrainer wrote:
The British upper class is not prepared for the change that is happening to the world. The industrial revolution is changing the world and they are clinging to tradition.




No one likes or wants to accept change. That has always been the truth.
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