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ladydi22
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

I am more creeped out by the doctor than the bugs at this point.  Hope he goes away!  :smileysad:
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ClaudiaLuce
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

Ginny's being unaware that Vivien was her sister for such a long time made the bond between them tenacious, to say the least.  It appears, that Vivi was the favored child, from Ginny's point of view. Could it be that these girls have different fathers? 
 
Being an older sister to a younger sister, occasionally, their relationship as children seems normal - I was the quiet child, my sister the noisy, outgoing one. Now, we are reversed! 
 
I understand the statement made about she was too young to understand about what the fall from the bell tower had cost her.  She was too young to even realize that the fall had cost her her ability to have children before she had even begun to have the desire to have them! What emotion pain that must have caused Vivi in the years to follow.  And Ginny - if she felt in any way responsible, then she must have felt that it was her duty to replace those lost children!
"Reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body." -
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grapes
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

 
"In this chapter, we witness Vivien's first homecoming alongside the evacuees of Bristol, as well as her fall from the bell tower, which evidently set her on a path that would lead away from the family home. The fall appears to have been a formative experience in Ginny's life, as well, and I got the distinct impression that Ginny's role in the fall is questioned by Maud and Dr. Moyse. But why? To what do you attribute Ginny's unemotional response to the accident?"
_________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Ginny appears to be without emotions. This is not true. Really, her observations have caused her to withdraw and seem stoic with some people like the good Dr. Moyse. She knows that Dr. Moyse treats her differently from the way he treats Vivi. Ginny feels she is being questioned like an eyewitness to a crime. She feels treated like a person who might have unworthy motives. Although Dr. Moyse is putting his best foot forward to appear as Ginny's understanding adult friend, he comes off as an investigator. He is frightening Ginny. To protect herself she hides her feelings. This is the way to keep safe.
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

 
"Lepidoptery sounds like a rather predatory activity, doesn't it?: "…they had scoured the earth in a bid to kill and pin every poor insect that crossed their path" (p. 10)."
_______________________________________________________________________________________
 
It does seem like a "predatory activity." To me, thinking as a child, it would seem rather spooky like living in a dungeon. The specimens are described as the size of a "child' hand." Would a child wonder whether that would become her state of being if caught being naughty? The state of being described as "dried papery and rigid over a Bunsen burner." The specimens are pinned down. There is no chance of freedom. Yes, "predatory activity."
 
Grapes
 
 
Grapes
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LeftBrainer
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

My points have been discussed.  The doctor creeped me out.  The comment about the "normal family" and why see didn't know Vive was her sister.  Nancy
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BookSavage
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

I appreciate being able to read everyones comments.  I did not catch all this information because I could barely stay awake during this chapter.  It had to be one of the worst chapters of writing ever published in my opinion.  Descriptions were way too verbose, characters remained flat, and there was no plot.  It does help though to read all your view points.
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coralc
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

I also noticed that Ginny thought of her parents by their names, not their roles in life.  "Mama" is a very important person in a child's life, but Ginny apparently never had one.
 
Maud also seems concerned that her children stay together and watch out for eachother.  Vivi, however, is the leader even though she is younger.
 
 
-Spends more at B&N than W-M
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grapes
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

 
"My points have been discussed.  The doctor creeped me out.  The comment about the "normal family" and why see didn't know Vive was her sister."  Nancy
 
_
________________________________________________________________________________________
 
The doctor doesn't realize how smart children are either. They are very aware of whether an adult is sincere or insincere.
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LisaMM
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



BookSavage wrote:
I appreciate being able to read everyones comments.  I did not catch all this information because I could barely stay awake during this chapter.  It had to be one of the worst chapters of writing ever published in my opinion.  Descriptions were way too verbose, characters remained flat, and there was no plot.  It does help though to read all your view points.





I so disagree.
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dhaupt
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



LisaMM wrote:
It's interesting how so many are assuming that Ginny called her parents by their first names by her choice.. maybe the parents dictated what they wanted to be called. My sister in law has her children call her and my bro in law by their first names, because that is what she did in her childhood home. It might be a quirk of the parents.




I didn't think of that you might be right

deb
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dhaupt
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



Amanda-Louise wrote:
I was so shocked when Maud implied Ginny's involvement in her sister's fall.  I actually had to put the book down and walk away for a bit it made me so sad.  I can't imagine making one of my children feel so accused and, presumably, horrible. 
 
But, Ginny's cool response to the horrific accident is rather curious.  I keep using that word - curious.  That's rather how I feel about the book at this point!
 
Amanda





I read it differently, I took it that Maud thinks there is something wrong with Ginny not showing emotion over Vivi's accident not that she blamed her for it. I'll have to look at it again.

deb
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tgem
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

vivico 1 wrote:
 
 don't know, there are just some things about autism that just dont fit her so far. She is very able to concentrate on things, look people in the eye. She has no problem with communication skills (as we see from her narration). I know there are various degrees and different kinds. But I have a friend with a teenager with functional autism, tho he can not hold a whole conversation with you unless he starts it, and he still rocks. I think the most we can say right now is yes, she is obsessive, compulsive, unable to fit in socially and may not realistically understand what is happening but other than being obsessive compulsive, at this point, I cant see actually tagging her with some label. We are pretty sure something is wrong and maybe we will learn more as we go along because I feel its right there but not sure yet. I can not think of the one disorder right now where someone has no emotional affect as the main characteristic. I think we need more info than is in two chapters huh?

Agreed - more info needed.  Wondering what's wrong with her and her family is definitely part of the appeal of the book for me.  tgem
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tgem
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

[ Edited ]
Quote from our moderator:
 
"In this chapter, we witness Vivien's first homecoming alongside the evacuees of Bristol, as well as her fall from the bell tower, which evidently set her on a path that would lead away from the family home. The fall appears to have been a formative experience in Ginny's life, as well, and I got the distinct impression that Ginny's role in the fall is questioned by Maud and Dr. Moyse. But why? To what do you attribute Ginny's unemotional response to the accident?"
_________________________________________________________________________________________
 
grapes wrote:
Ginny appears to be without emotions. This is not true. Really, her observations have caused her to withdraw and seem stoic with some people like the good Dr. Moyse. She knows that Dr. Moyse treats her differently from the way he treats Vivi. Ginny feels she is being questioned like an eyewitness to a crime. She feels treated like a person who might have unworthy motives. Although Dr. Moyse is putting his best foot forward to appear as Ginny's understanding adult friend, he comes off as an investigator. He is frightening Ginny. To protect herself she hides her feelings. This is the way to keep safe.

grapes: I really like your post.  Children are very perceptive as to how others are approaching them.  There are many examples of her having emotions and many examples of her having learned to hide them.  She even states that she tells the doctor that she doesn't feel anything because she's learned that will shut him up. There's also the possibility that her immediate calm reaction to the fall is  the result of being in shock - she's so attached to her sister, that when her sister briefly died, she felt as if she died also.  Then, due to her calmness, she's treated as a suspect.  tgem



Message Edited by tgem on 03-04-2008 08:57 AM
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Jeanie0522
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

I agree with the person that said it's "curious."  Curious how Ginny would not have immediately said the fall was an accident.  I also think it is curious how we know now that Vivi will never have children.  That makes me curious if Ginny ever does.  She appears to have been alone for a very long time.  I am interested to see how the family dynamics play out.  At this point, I feel more like Vivi has come home to take care of Ginny.  We know that she does not pay the man that gets her groceries for her and she has sold most the furniture for money to live on.  -Jeanie
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dubbuh
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

Part of Ginny's reaction to he fall had to be her personality which seems to have her be more of an observer than a doer.  Her voice so far seems to be so matter-of-fact.  She's saying things that are making all kinds of bells go off in my head and in my mind, but her face has very little emotion as she's telling me this story.  Her family was known for generations for studying moths.  They caught them, killed them and pinned them in a rather repulsive display--that Clive didn't even particularly like (p.10)  They look but don't really see.  They have opinions but keep them in.  Things happen to the family but they don't really talk (reference the 12 children who lived with them and Ginny didn't realize one of them was her sister!)
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grapes
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



tgem wrote:
Quote from our moderator:
 
"In this chapter, we witness Vivien's first homecoming alongside the evacuees of Bristol, as well as her fall from the bell tower, which evidently set her on a path that would lead away from the family home. The fall appears to have been a formative experience in Ginny's life, as well, and I got the distinct impression that Ginny's role in the fall is questioned by Maud and Dr. Moyse. But why? To what do you attribute Ginny's unemotional response to the accident?"
_________________________________________________________________________________________
 
grapes wrote:
Ginny appears to be without emotions. This is not true. Really, her observations have caused her to withdraw and seem stoic with some people like the good Dr. Moyse. She knows that Dr. Moyse treats her differently from the way he treats Vivi. Ginny feels she is being questioned like an eyewitness to a crime. She feels treated like a person who might have unworthy motives. Although Dr. Moyse is putting his best foot forward to appear as Ginny's understanding adult friend, he comes off as an investigator. He is frightening Ginny. To protect herself she hides her feelings. This is the way to keep safe.

grapes: I really like your post.  Children are very perceptive as to how others are approaching them.  There are many examples of her having emotions and many examples of her having learned to hide them.  She even states that she tells the doctor that she doesn't feel anything because she's learned that will shut him up. There's also the possibility that her immediate calm reaction to the fall is  the result of being in shock - she's so attached to her sister, that when her sister briefly died, she felt as if she died also.  Then, due to her calmness, she's treated as a suspect.  tgem



Message Edited by tgem on 03-04-2008 08:57 AM

Good answer about shock being a cause. She had to be traumatized to see such an accident happen to her sister.
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



kiakar wrote:


Jaelin wrote:
After reading several posts on the "normal" family issue.  I can honestly say that at times I wondered why my family couldn't be a "normal" family even though we were pretty average.  It kinda of reminds me of the quote "the grass isn't always greener on the other side" . It strikes me that Maud may be looking at other families or even before she married Clive that she had an expectation of what she expected a "normal" family to be.  So this could be an interesting topic through out the book!


Yes, who could be normal when you live moth research day and night, the couple plus the children.


Yes, Ginny describes the house as "claustrophobic." It does seem dreary and stuffy. It seems like a strong male's estate. How much does Maud have to say about the arrangement of this estate?
 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

[ Edited ]


KxBurns wrote:

In this chapter, we witness Vivien's first homecoming alongside the evacuees of Bristol, as well as her fall from the bell tower, which evidently set her on a path that would lead away from the family home. The fall appears to have been a formative experience in Ginny's life, as well, and I got the distinct impression that Ginny's role in the fall is questioned by Maud and Dr. Moyse. But why? To what do you attribute Ginny's unemotional response to the accident?

The description of Bulburrow Court is wonderful and paints such a dramatic image of the estate in my mind. It seems that the house – both the physical structure and its contents – constitutes something of a shrine to this family, and that both the structure and the family are in a state of deterioration.

Lepidoptery sounds like a rather predatory activity, doesn't it?: "…they had scoured the earth in a bid to kill and pin every poor insect that crossed their path" (p. 10).

_____________________________________________________________________________

The sisterly dynamic is alluded to numerous times throughout this chapter. How would you characterize Ginny and Vivi's respective roles?

Vivi is definitely the leader. It's her idea to go to the Bell Tower. Vivi is the one with the imaginative mind. She's the leader. It's odd because she's the younger of the two sisters. Ginny doesn't mind not being the leader. I think she enjoys following her sister. It's enough for Ginny to be close to her sister. Ginny loves Vivi. She looks forward to their play time together.

Iis it possible for Ginny to be envious of Vivi's free spirit and bravery? Can true love mix with envy and still remain love and not hate?

Grapes

_______________________________________________________________________________

 

One thing that struck me was how Ginny's fate seems so utterly tethered to Vivi's (at least in Ginny's mind). Ginny says: "…whilst she was on that stretcher I actually saw her Entire Future giving up the struggle to survive and leave her and at the same time I felt my own future reduced to a dead and eventless vacuum, a mere biological process" (p. 15). Interesting...

Are we to gather from the end of this chapter that neither sister had children? If that is the case, then how or why does Ginny believe that children are "what life was all about and nothing else mattered" (p. 21)?  I suppose we'll find out!

Karen



Message Edited by KxBurns on 03-03-2008 01:31 PM




Message Edited by grapes on 03-04-2008 01:40 PM
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martini72
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

When the doctor appeared in this chapter, I did get the impression that he was not there regular MD, but more on a shrink level, just by the way he approached Ginny when she was sitting looking out the window and the questions he had asked her. As for them having different fathers, that very well may be the case. Vivian was one of the only children left to stay after all the others left after the war... it could be that Ginny was to young to realize her mother was going to have a baby and Vivian is her biological sister, or it could be that Ginny is not the biological child, which is the feeling I tend to have gotten when the doctor appeared...
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maryfrancesa
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

You could be right.  I agree that the Dr is strange, I to felt that he may be a psych doctor with his questions and games Ginny and he play.  I read over that part that Ginny never knew that Vi was her sister, I trealize when they children all arrived together Ginny could be confused but one would wonder about the mother child/childrens(Ginny and Vi) dynamics. 
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