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dhaupt
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



lcnh1 wrote:
I wonder if Ginny's unemotional response to Vivi's fall is more Ginny's recollection of the events 50+ years later rather than her actual response at the time. 
 
I somewhat had the impression with the conversation between Ginny's parents that Vivi might have been the more favored child by Maud.  That might have played into why Maud was so upset and seemed to almost accuse Ginny of pushing Vivi.





Good point I never thought of it like but I should have, especially since Ginny doesn't seem all there, so maybe her remembering isn't all there either.
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DSaff
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

Thank you for the link!
DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
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Peppermill
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower -- p. 6

"When Maud gave birth to Vivien, on 19 October 1940, I thought she'd borne twelve other children of varying ages at the same time...."

"...I couldn't understand why baby Vivi had stayed."

"'She's your little sister, Ginny. This is her home," Maud had said, hugging us both to her in the hallway.

Who in the world is Maud as a mother and a woman? I know certain things were taboo subjects yet in the '40's, but ....?
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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LizzieAnn
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

I never considered the fact that the doctor could be a psychiatrist.  That's an interesting possibility.  It also opens up the question as to why Maud & Clive felt that Ginny needed a psychiatrist and also has to how long exactly he'd been "talking" with her before this accident.
 


kbbg42 wrote:

 
The impression that I got of Ginny from the Bell Tower chapter is that she is a budding sociopath. With her inability to express emotions her inability to "connect" with her family. The way she calls her parents Maude and Clive. Did you notice when the Doctor asked where her mother was Ginny answered "Maude is upstairs"? Also the Doctor's questioning of her and his "interest" in her. Could the Doctor be a Psychiatrist? Remember he couldn't cure her warts,Clive had to freeze them off with the liquid nitrogen.



Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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kbbg42
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

Peppermill I don't know exactly what your question is. Could you please elaborate?
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Countrygirl
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

I was wondering the same thing. Why does the doctor and her mother think she did this. It makes me wonder if it is something she might do or has thought about doing. 
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DSaff
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower -- p. 6



Peppermill wrote:
"When Maud gave birth to Vivien, on 19 October 1940, I thought she'd borne twelve other children of varying ages at the same time...."

"...I couldn't understand why baby Vivi had stayed."

"'She's your little sister, Ginny. This is her home," Maud had said, hugging us both to her in the hallway.

Who in the world is Maud as a mother and a woman? I know certain things were taboo subjects yet in the '40's, but ....?




I thought the same thing, Peppermill. Why didn't Ginny know that Vivi was her sister? There may have been many others in the house, but Ginny should have been told. It is very odd.
DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
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Laurel
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Another window


kmensing wrote:
pg. 13 "I thought when God made Vivi he was giving me a window to see the world in a different way."---I love this quote.





Me too. In chapter one Ginny was looking through the window of the house for Vivi, and she saw her own eye. Now we see that Vivi was a window to her world. Any more windows coming up? Or mirrors?
"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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cocospals
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

In this chapter, I found the description of Bulburrow Court to be wonderful although I am not sure I would find the place to be welcoming. It sounds stately but it also sounds like with a little lightening and some thunder it could also be scary.  It became clear in this chapter that Vivi is the adventurous sister and Ginny is more the grounded sister. I am interested to see how this plays out, what adventures lie ahead for Vivi and will Ginny follow the same path or plant her roots at Bulburrow?
Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there - John Wooden
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vivico1
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower

The quote mentioned about "I actually saw her Entire Future give the struggle.......I felt my own future reduced to a dead vacuum, a mere biological process", intrigued me for two reasons. Unless this is a typo, notice that she capitalizes Vivi's "Entire Future" as if it were an entity, a living thing, and her future she does not. I wonder if in some ways she already feels her life as a biological process, something different than Vivi's.

There has got to be something wrong with Ginny,that has manifested itself in the past, that even Ginny is not connecting to, for Maud to be telling her, I love you, I don't blame you, just tell me the truth, and then bring in this doctor character to "talk and play" with her. Thats a bit creepy sounding. They have me wondering too if Ginny had something to do with the incident in the bell tower, especially if this was the "beginning" domino of the separating of the two sisters, and Ginny doesn't seem to feel much emotion about it, even tho she talks about loving Vivi. Weird, no connection between the words and the feelings.

I wonder how Vivi feels, to be the younger one, but the one who Maud seems to put in charge of Ginny? Always making sure they are together, always making sure Vivi is with her. Could be something interesting there, as to why Vivi would leave the place for such a long time and Ginny become this recluse.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Laurel
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Sisters?

I'm wondering whether the two girls actually WERE full sisters. When parents go away and then come back with a baby and a lot of other children, there's no way for a three-year-old to know where the baby came from. (I'm the second of seven children, and I didn't know until child six or seven came home.)

Peppermill wrote:
"When Maud gave birth to Vivien, on 19 October 1940, I thought she'd borne twelve other children of varying ages at the same time...."

"...I couldn't understand why baby Vivi had stayed."

"'She's your little sister, Ginny. This is her home," Maud had said, hugging us both to her in the hallway.

Who in the world is Maud as a mother and a woman? I know certain things were taboo subjects yet in the '40's, but ....?


"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Peppermill
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower -- p. 6


Peppermill wrote:
"When Maud gave birth to Vivien, on 19 October 1940, I thought she'd borne twelve other children of varying ages at the same time...."

"...I couldn't understand why baby Vivi had stayed."

"'She's your little sister, Ginny. This is her home," Maud had said, hugging us both to her in the hallway.

Who in the world is Maud as a mother and a woman? I know certain things were taboo subjects yet in the '40's, but ....?


Explanation of question -- is Ginny so ill or out of it that her mother couldn't bring her up to understand, at age six, who was her "real" sister? Who was Maud to take on a whole bevy of children if she had such a special needs child? Superwoman or a woman avoiding something? Otherwise, if a relatively normal family, why didn't the sibling bonding occur until after the evacuees left?
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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vivico1
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower


LizzieAnn wrote:
I never considered the fact that the doctor could be a psychiatrist. That's an interesting possibility. It also opens up the question as to why Maud & Clive felt that Ginny needed a psychiatrist and also has to how long exactly he'd been "talking" with her before this accident.


kbbg42 wrote:

The impression that I got of Ginny from the Bell Tower chapter is that she is a budding sociopath. With her inability to express emotions her inability to "connect" with her family. The way she calls her parents Maude and Clive. Did you notice when the Doctor asked where her mother was Ginny answered "Maude is upstairs"? Also the Doctor's questioning of her and his "interest" in her. Could the Doctor be a Psychiatrist? Remember he couldn't cure her warts,Clive had to freeze them off with the liquid nitrogen.






He better be a shrink or some mental health doctor, or get this strange guy out of there lol.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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fordmg
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



LisaMM wrote:
The most curious thing to me in this chapter is the attention paid to Ginny by the doctor and the veiled accusation of Maud that Ginny had something to do with the fall. Why would they think that? Do they think she has some kind of evil intent toward her sister? Do they think she has some sort of mental illness? It's curious.

It doesn't seem that Maud cares as much for Ginny as she does for Vivi.  I feel a little sorry for Ginny.  She is required to do everything with her sister, but the younger sister is the dominant personality. 
 
It does seem that Ginny is a little lacking in awareness.  She doesn't really experience life, just watches it go by.  Vivi pulls everything out of her life, however, we still don't know what Vivi (or even Ginny) has done for the last fifty years. 
 
Page 16 when Maud is in private conversation wiht Clive, "I thought we could be a normal family."  What does that mean.  And why does Ginny find it so hard to show emotion.  I think that is why Maud and the doctor are after Ginny. 
 
MG
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vivico1
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower -- p. 6


DSaff wrote:


Peppermill wrote:
"When Maud gave birth to Vivien, on 19 October 1940, I thought she'd borne twelve other children of varying ages at the same time...."

"...I couldn't understand why baby Vivi had stayed."

"'She's your little sister, Ginny. This is her home," Maud had said, hugging us both to her in the hallway.

Who in the world is Maud as a mother and a woman? I know certain things were taboo subjects yet in the '40's, but ....?




I thought the same thing, Peppermill. Why didn't Ginny know that Vivi was her sister? There may have been many others in the house, but Ginny should have been told. It is very odd.


I didn't take this as Ginny not knowing Vivi was her little sister any more than any child who the baby is brought home to. After all, shes only 3 and Maud did bring the refugee children home with her at the same time. And lots of kids dont want the baby to stay lol, not when they see the attention they get.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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MSaff
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



vivico1 wrote:

LizzieAnn wrote:
I never considered the fact that the doctor could be a psychiatrist. That's an interesting possibility. It also opens up the question as to why Maud & Clive felt that Ginny needed a psychiatrist and also has to how long exactly he'd been "talking" with her before this accident.


kbbg42 wrote:

The impression that I got of Ginny from the Bell Tower chapter is that she is a budding sociopath. With her inability to express emotions her inability to "connect" with her family. The way she calls her parents Maude and Clive. Did you notice when the Doctor asked where her mother was Ginny answered "Maude is upstairs"? Also the Doctor's questioning of her and his "interest" in her. Could the Doctor be a Psychiatrist? Remember he couldn't cure her warts,Clive had to freeze them off with the liquid nitrogen.






He better be a shrink or some mental health doctor, or get this strange guy out of there lol.

I agree. He isn't presented in a light that seems trustworthy.
 
Mike
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fordmg
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



Laurabairn wrote:
There were two things that struck me as odd and revealing of Ginny's character  in  this chapter. Once the evacuees had gone back and only baby Vivi remained , her mother had to explain to Ginny..." She's your sister...this is her home" . Ginny would have been six by then, normally an age where siblings have already made important bonds. Was she such a different kind of girl, even as a child, that she wouldn't have
noticed? 
 
The calling of her mother by her given name, Maud, not Mom or Mama or Mother really bothers me too. Something seems very strained about this family. The comment by Maud " I thought we could just be a normal family" (pg 16) also makes me wonder what other secrets have been hidden from us. Why aren't they normal?
 
The doctor seemed a very odd persona to me as well. I almost wondered about a svengalli like relationship there...like she was a project for him. His interest seemed clinical and detached but more like a scientist than a doctor. . Wait...I haven't read beyond chapter 5 yet, but I'm getting an eery freeling about the reasons for this. Anyone else? I don't want to spoil things if my speculation is accurate, but the expirments with moths as a vehicle for understanding human life and Ginny's oddness suddenly have an uncanny connection.


I think part of Ginny's emotional void is caused by the relationship with her parents.  When all of a sudden a dozen evacuees show up, they might have called Maud and Clive by their first name and if they didn't differenciate betwen their own children and the evacuees, it could confuse a 6 year old.  Especially if they did not give a lot of indication about getting a new sibling.  
 
A project for the doctor is an interesting concept....obviously the Maud did not have good parenting skills, and Clives' skills were non existant.
 
MG
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HannibalCat
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower -- p. 6



Peppermill wrote:
Explanation of question -- is Ginny so ill or out of it that her mother couldn't bring her up to understand, at age six, who was her "real" sister? Who was Maud to take on a whole bevy of children if she had such a special needs child? Superwoman or a woman avoiding something? Otherwise, if a relatively normal family, why didn't the sibling bonding occur until after the evacuees left?




GREAT point. It does sort of explain the remark about having a normal family. If Ginny is mentally ill, the mother may know that she should have been in an institution, but tried to bring her up in a normal family situation. I know this is a great leap at this point, but it does seem to make some of what is going on a little easier to understand. Ginny certainly seems to be unstable. Her lack of emotion is, indeed, questionable for her stability. She doesn't even understand what kind of doctor she is talking to. He is clearly a psychiatrist of psychologist.

Her world seems to exist only in relation to Vivi, so much so that she can't even express her feelings to anyone. The doctor is simply an intrusion to her. I wonder if she can relate to anyone other than Vivi.
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LizzieAnn
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower -- p. 6

As Ginny was only just 3 when the baby & the evacuees all arrived, in her mind she probably lumped them altogether.  Being told that someone is a sister is different than comprehending it, especially with so many other children in the house.  She does say that after she learned that Vivi was really her sister, she came to adore her sister (pages 6-7). 
 


Peppermill wrote:

Explanation of question -- is Ginny so ill or out of it that her mother couldn't bring her up to understand, at age six, who was her "real" sister? Who was Maud to take on a whole bevy of children if she had such a special needs child? Superwoman or a woman avoiding something? Otherwise, if a relatively normal family, why didn't the sibling bonding occur until after the evacuees left?


Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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MsMorninglight
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Re: Chapter 2: The Bell Tower



KxBurns wrote:

In this chapter, we witness Vivien's first homecoming alongside the evacuees of Bristol, as well as her fall from the bell tower, which evidently set her on a path that would lead away from the family home. The fall appears to have been a formative experience in Ginny's life, as well, and I got the distinct impression that Ginny's role in the fall is questioned by Maud and Dr. Moyse. But why? To what do you attribute Ginny's unemotional response to the accident?


 
This was my first inkling that there may be something "odd" about Ginny.  If she worshipped her little sister as she says she did on page 6, why would her mother seem to have doubts that Vivi's fall was an accident?   This chapter seems to express that Ginny lives more inside her own mind than out in the real world.  Her mothers comment:  "It's all my fault, I thought we could be a normal family." and  "She's no even crying... She stood there staring at the shrubs." give us plenty to speculate on concerning Ginny's "differences".



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