Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. We've said goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

Reply
Scribe
DSaff
Posts: 2,048
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



swamplover wrote:
After finishing the first 5 chapters, I'm convinced of the following:
 
Ginny definately has some "condition"  - whether Asperger's Syndrom, OCD, or something else is not clear to me yet.  It's surely not split personality with Vivi and Ginny the same person, a possibility I had considered earlier.
 
There is an absolute metaphor between Ginny's life and the life of moths.  It is everywhere.  She sees life in that way too - although she may not be conscious that she does, or that it is unusual in any way.  For instance: "What I fear is timelessness, a lack of structure in my life, an endless Now".   The lack of struturre is what is occurring in the pupal stage, the "pupal soup" referrred to in the Ch. 5.  And yet in Ch. 3 (p 39) she says, "I can feel the start of Vivien's and my relationship re-forming again . . .." And she goes on to comment - complain? - that is is exactly the same, not matured at all.  When the caterpillar re-forms inside the cocoon, it matures and comes out a moth.  She expects that the relationship should re-form and come out something else.  But what? 
 
I personally love all the scientific references and description.  Reminds me a bit of Barbara Kingsolver's Prodigal Summer  in that respect.  But then I suppose I'm something of an science geek  as I have a degree in Environmental Science.  Note my name  :smileywink:
 
 


Nice analogy. The lives of Ginny and the moths definitely seem intertwined.
DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
Correspondent
momgee
Posts: 584
Registered: ‎07-24-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



carriele wrote:
 
 
Speaking of the bed, I think we saw another bit of the problem that plagues Ginny since she states that she pins the sheets to the blanket and avoids messing up the bed.  I can't imagine it ever taking 55 minutes to make a bed.
 
Finally, I thought it was odd that there are no curtains in Ginny's bedroom.  For someone who is reclusive and values her privacy so much, I have a hard time believing that she would not keep her windows covered at all times. 
 
Carrie E. 


Anyone with severe Rheumatoid arthritis could spend that long making a bed - what seems easy to one without  this disease can be torture to one with it. Something simple like slicing a tomato or using a can opener is very difficult if you have RA. It really makes the joints extremely painful. When I was diagnosed with it, I was 29 years old so it can affect a person at any age.
Kaye
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Frequent Contributor
SweetReaderMA
Posts: 26
Registered: ‎02-05-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

I thought that her hearing the bell and being unable to decide if she was really hearing it or only hearing it in her head might be more evidence of a possible mental disorder.

Clive wanting to unravel the mysteries of things as he does with the moths could cause some real issues parenting if he chooses to carry over experimentation of "unraveling" from moths to the human mind.
These are not books, lumps of lifeless paper, but minds alive on the shelves. From each of them goes out its own voice... and just as the touch of a button on our set will fill the room with music, so by taking down one of these volumes and opening it, one can call into range the voice of a man far distant in time and space, and hear him speaking to us, mind to mind, heart to heart. ~Gilbert Highet
Contributor
Skelly7645
Posts: 20
Registered: ‎01-15-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

I may be over simplifying this chapter, but I believe that the main purpose of it is set by the title Methodology.  I think that the author hopes to provide the reader with an overall sense of Ginny's obbessive compulsive behaviors.  As far as Vivi goes, I actually find her to be more of a mystery still than Ginny.  Where has she been all these years?  Maybe she has not even spent enough time with Ginny to recognize the extent of her mental issues.
 
 
Moderator
KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



Everyman wrote:
Not me!

blkeyesuzi wrote:
Something I noticed is that Vivi commented on on the bed, "Well, I suppose it's mine, too." As if she coming back into Ginny's life and laying claim to everything again after all these years. She walks into the bedroom without knocking, she immediately begins snooping around and complaining about the way Ginny has handled things. How many of you would be ok with a visitor like this?




Really? But she's not a "visitor," like a stranger off the street or even an acquaintance -- she's her sister!
 
While Vivi does seem to be oblivious to the discomfort her actions cause for Ginny, I think she's basically just making herself at home like she used to. I'm not sure I see anything wrong with it, beyond a lack of sensitivity (although how could one guess that their presence in their own sister's bedroom could be the source of extreme distress?..).
Contributor
mntdew
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎01-26-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

Excellent point - over analyzing can confuse the issue.


momgee wrote:


carriele wrote:
 
 
Speaking of the bed, I think we saw another bit of the problem that plagues Ginny since she states that she pins the sheets to the blanket and avoids messing up the bed.  I can't imagine it ever taking 55 minutes to make a bed.
 
Finally, I thought it was odd that there are no curtains in Ginny's bedroom.  For someone who is reclusive and values her privacy so much, I have a hard time believing that she would not keep her windows covered at all times. 
 
Carrie E. 


Anyone with severe Rheumatoid arthritis could spend that long making a bed - what seems easy to one without  this disease can be torture to one with it. Something simple like slicing a tomato or using a can opener is very difficult if you have RA. It really makes the joints extremely painful. When I was diagnosed with it, I was 29 years old so it can affect a person at any age.
Kaye



Frequent Contributor
paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

Karen, in the margins where she hears the bell ringing...I noted that it was probably a guilty conscience...I also speculated about what kind of games Dr. Moyse played with Ginny and what made them private? Your question about Vivi knowing something about Ginny that she doesn't know about herself, made me look at that passage differently in some senses...I still question the relationship between her and the good Dr. though...Ginny's explanation about time and how it relates to her, definitely gives us more insight into her psyche...
 
In this paragraph, I saw great parallels between Ginny and the house itself...it seems to be literally falling down around her...just like her body is failing her...on page 65 she talks in detail about how rundown the house is and how over time it has been changed drastically...I felt like she was describing her time on earth...the grand house as falling apart and fading into non-existence, slowly nearing the end of its existence, very much like Ginny is.
 
Her reference to the sheets and how tight they needed to be brought the image of a cocoon to mind, p. 69...tying (sp?) in the idea that the moth represents her...On page 63, she even talks about how her life is connected to weather patterns and being able to tell what pressure changes would occur...she then goes into the explanation of how "a moth's life is finely tuned to the forthcoming weather..." 
 
I think that Vivi's reaction to seeing the bed and her tracing the headboard, was one that gave us insight into how she may have felt about her parents, especially Maud...I think that seeing it again reminded her of Maud and how much she loved her...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
Frequent Contributor
paula_02912
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Dr. Moyse's card games

Laurel that is an interesting thought...maybe Ginny does have telekinetic ability...so it is possible that she "pushed" Vivi off the bell tower as well as caused Maud's "fall." It will be interesting to see if the idea comes into play as we read further...
Peace and love,
Paula R.

"Adversity causes some people to break, but causes others to break records."

Author Unknown
Scribe
Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

I agree with you, Karen. Perhaps the moths are taking us back to biology class and causing us to disect things to death.

KxBurns wrote:


Everyman wrote:
Not me!

blkeyesuzi wrote:
Something I noticed is that Vivi commented on on the bed, "Well, I suppose it's mine, too." As if she coming back into Ginny's life and laying claim to everything again after all these years. She walks into the bedroom without knocking, she immediately begins snooping around and complaining about the way Ginny has handled things. How many of you would be ok with a visitor like this?




Really? But she's not a "visitor," like a stranger off the street or even an acquaintance -- she's her sister!
While Vivi does seem to be oblivious to the discomfort her actions cause for Ginny, I think she's basically just making herself at home like she used to. I'm not sure I see anything wrong with it, beyond a lack of sensitivity (although how could one guess that their presence in their own sister's bedroom could be the source of extreme distress?..).



"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Scribe
Laurel
Posts: 5,747
Registered: ‎10-29-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

Great thoughts!

paula_02912 wrote:
Her reference to the sheets and how tight they needed to be brought the image of a cocoon to mind, p. 69...tying (sp?) in the idea that the moth represents her...On page 63, she even talks about how her life is connected to weather patterns and being able to tell what pressure changes would occur...she then goes into the explanation of how "a moth's life is finely tuned to the forthcoming weather..."
I think that Vivi's reaction to seeing the bed and her tracing the headboard, was one that gave us insight into how she may have felt about her parents, especially Maud...I think that seeing it again reminded her of Maud and how much she loved her...



"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Moderator
KxBurns
Posts: 1,006
Registered: ‎09-06-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



krb2g wrote:
I would be a lot more disturbed by Vivian's return to possess the house if Ginny weren't acting the way she is: sure Vivi invites herself into bed, but Ginny immediately tells us: "I'd never have said no to Vivian getting into bed with me, not when she offers that sort of closeness" (69). Furthermore, she's observing Vivi more closely than a stalker might: she waits until Vivi reaches the door in the third chapter before she even goes down to greet her, and in the fourth chapter, she's "focusing intently" on making tea, yet is painfully aware of Vivian "walking back and forth past the open kitchen door talking on her mobile phone or her driver carrying her boxes and bags from the car into the house and up the stairs" (36). If Vivi is invading Ginny's privacy by entering her space, it seems to me Ginny is as much invading Vivi's privacy by her persistent and uncanny observation.


Ah - you articulated my own thoughts on this matter much better than I did! Furthermore, I don't get the sense that the Ginny's discomfort has anything at all to do with who has a right to the property or its contents or the percseption that Vivi is somehow trying to reclaim the house. Ginny's discomfort stems purely from her boundary and control issues, which cause her to surveil her sister in a rather stalkerish way. This is sad because she does seem to crave closeness to her sister while simultaneously being unable to bear such proximity to others.   
Wordsmith
Tarri
Posts: 457
Registered: ‎02-26-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

A couple of people have commented on the fact that Vivi is making herself at home in Ginny's house, but is it really Ginny's house.  More than likely it is both of theirs and, even though it has been 50 years, home is  where you grew up.   As to her commenting on the bed, the furniture that is no longer there, and the other household artifacts, I assume I would be just as shocked if I went to my parents home and my sister had sold everything of value. 
 
Like Everyman says, out in the country there is no need for curtains, but here in the Pacific Northwest we need glass in the windows.  I think that would cause me to comment quicker than the lack of curtains. 
 
Dr. Moyse, while he may be a plain old family doctor, appears to be evaluating Ginny's mental state.  Very interesting and a great mystery.  It's a puzzle.
Frequent Contributor
carriele
Posts: 52
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



mntdew wrote:
Excellent point - over analyzing can confuse the issue.


momgee wrote:


carriele wrote:
 
 
Speaking of the bed, I think we saw another bit of the problem that plagues Ginny since she states that she pins the sheets to the blanket and avoids messing up the bed.  I can't imagine it ever taking 55 minutes to make a bed.
 
Finally, I thought it was odd that there are no curtains in Ginny's bedroom.  For someone who is reclusive and values her privacy so much, I have a hard time believing that she would not keep her windows covered at all times. 
 
Carrie E. 


Anyone with severe Rheumatoid arthritis could spend that long making a bed - what seems easy to one without  this disease can be torture to one with it. Something simple like slicing a tomato or using a can opener is very difficult if you have RA. It really makes the joints extremely painful. When I was diagnosed with it, I was 29 years old so it can affect a person at any age.
Kaye





Kaye,
 
Sorry to hear that you have RA.  I can imagine the condition is greatly painful and can make tasks take great lengths of time depending on the inflammation and pain for any given day. 
 
I should clarify some of my post though... I guess I assumed that it took her 55 minutes to make the bed because she had to pin the sheets to the blanket and create edges on the bottom of the bed that would not give when you crawled under the covers.  I do not know too many people who make a bed like this and thought it was a peculiar behavior. 
 
Carrie E. 
Contributor
psawyers
Posts: 6
Registered: ‎12-30-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

I'm more convinced than ever from this chapter that Ginny is suffering from autism, most likely Asperger's Syndrome.  Her obsession with time is very much that of an autistic person who focuses on something.  She has to know what time it is, and that it's the correct time.  Her methodology with the bed is the same.  Most high functioning autistics have to have everything just so, and will take whatever time is necessary to get it there.  Autistics will also focus on certain individuals as the primary person in their life.  As a child, it was Vivi, and then Clive when Vivi left.  Now that Vivi is back, Ginny wants to cling to her again, but is still cautious due to their separation.
 
Vivi is probably struggling just as much with the differences between them.
Correspondent
momgee
Posts: 584
Registered: ‎07-24-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



Tarri wrote:
A couple of people have commented on the fact that Vivi is making herself at home in Ginny's house, but is it really Ginny's house.  More than likely it is both of theirs and, even though it has been 50 years, home is  where you grew up.   As to her commenting on the bed, the furniture that is no longer there, and the other household artifacts, I assume I would be just as shocked if I went to my parents home and my sister had sold everything of value. 
 



It may not technically be Ginny's house but it IS her HOME. I think this connotation makes a lot of difference. Anyone who does not live in the home with her has no right (imho) to come in and criticize anything. Even when our adult children come to visit they do not feel it is their place to change anything or roam all over at will. I certainly would never go to their home and tell them what to do with their furniture or venture into their bedrooms or other private spaces without their express invitation, even though they are my children.
kaye
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
Correspondent
SandyS
Posts: 148
Registered: ‎12-28-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology

I find it interesting that Michael, the gardener, has risen from his station in life and purchased some the the family's estate.  Again, another total surprise for Vivien regarding disposition of the family estate.  I am starting to believe Vivien was not in on the inheritance of the actual estate.  Otherwise Ginny would have been unable to sell the land without her approval.  (Unless there was a Power of Attorney in place from long ago).
 
Michael also is very good at checking on Ginny and making sure she has food. I wonder how he will fit into all this.
 
SandyS 
Frequent Contributor
BookSavage
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎01-11-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



Everyman wrote:
For me, the main thing I take from this chapter is that Ginny is so totally consumed with order and method. She can't even drink the tea because it wasn't properly made. She can't sleep in a bed if it isn't properly made.

She and Vivi are NOT going to get along living together!


I think her obsession with order not only lends itself to the idea of OCD, but more importantly continues to reinforce the idea that she has Asperger's Syndrom.  I really thought of her autism as I read her description of how she made the bed, and how she even pinned the sheets to the blankets.  Very much the way autism effects the children I teach.
Go Cubs Go!
Frequent Contributor
BookSavage
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎01-11-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



MsMorninglight wrote:


LizzieAnn wrote:
Her obsession is so strong that I can't help but think it's been a part of her for a long time.
Possibly.  But she did say  "As I've grown older I've realized how essential it is keeping time, being on time & knowing time."  But the irony & mystery are, why is time so important to her?  She doesn't leave the house, she doesn't interact with people; it doesn't sound like she even works with her moths & butterflies any longer.
 
She also says, "What I fear is timelessness, a lack of structure in my life, an endless Now".   I wonder, is it really Death that she fears?  That would be the ultimate timelessness for some.
 

 


I think this is a very good analysis that has not been mentioned before.  I would agree with you that Ginny is very afraid of death.
Go Cubs Go!
Frequent Contributor
pheath
Posts: 82
Registered: ‎02-01-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



BookSavage wrote:


MsMorninglight wrote:


LizzieAnn wrote:
Her obsession is so strong that I can't help but think it's been a part of her for a long time.
Possibly. But she did say "As I've grown older I've realized how essential it is keeping time, being on time & knowing time." But the irony & mystery are, why is time so important to her? She doesn't leave the house, she doesn't interact with people; it doesn't sound like she even works with her moths & butterflies any longer.
She also says, "What I fear is timelessness, a lack of structure in my life, an endless Now". I wonder, is it really Death that she fears? That would be the ultimate timelessness for some.



I think this is a very good analysis that has not been mentioned before. I would agree with you that Ginny is very afraid of death.





I'm not sure. I think she would see death as the logical conclusion of the predetermined mechanical process in which she is caught up.
-Philip
Frequent Contributor
BookSavage
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎01-11-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Chapter 6: Methodology



runnybabbit620 wrote:
 
I DID also find it odd that Ginny, for all her privacy and timeliness, has no curtains in her bedroom.  Maybe she wants to get up with the break of day and "make the most of every moment".  Although how she's making the most of it by what she's describing of her day-to-day, I begin to wonder.
 



I don't think her desire to know as that it is daylight as soon as possible has anything to do with her wanting to make the most of everyday, but rather that daylight symbolizes the end of another tortures night for her.  She wants to know that night is over as soon as she can because she needs that relief.
Go Cubs Go!
Users Online
Currently online: 69 members 631 guests
Please welcome our newest community members: