Chapter 6: Methodology

[Carmenere_lady]

We see that Ginny has a method for almost everything.  I wonder if there is a method to Ginny's possible madness as well

[AmyEJ]

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dhaupt wrote:
She seems to me to be very lucid in this chapter knowing that the lack of exercise is not good for her arthritis.

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That's exactly the same thought I had.  I guess I've become hypervigilent about her state of mind because of all of the posts.  But when I was reading this chapter I thought that she seemed so lucid, and I started thinking more and more that perhaps she's just very eccentric.  I do think that living alone for so long would change a person in many ways.  I suppose the bigger question--and the one that causes a lot of the speculation about her mental state--is why she would live this isolated life in the first place.  And I'm not discounting the theories about her having characteristics of OCD or other disorders; I certainly notice those tendencies.  Bottom line, though, is that Ginny is an interesting character, and I'm enjoying getting to know her, quirks and all. 

[krb2g]

In terms of Vivian's coming into possession of the house, it would be a lot easier for me to decide on how to judge her behavior if I had more information about the exact disposition of the materials (Did Clive and Maud leave the house and its belonging to the girls jointly? Did Vivian give up her claim to the materials explicitly or implicitly, or does Ginny assume she has because she's been gone for fifty years?), but the text is unclear on this point.

I would be a lot more disturbed by Vivian's return to possess the house if Ginny weren't acting the way she is: sure Vivi invites herself into bed, but Ginny immediately tells us: "I'd never have said no to Vivian getting into bed with me, not when she offers that sort of closeness" (69). Furthermore, she's observing Vivi more closely than a stalker might: she waits until Vivi reaches the door in the third chapter before she even goes down to greet her, and in the fourth chapter, she's "focusing intently" on making tea, yet is painfully aware of Vivian "walking back and forth past the open kitchen door talking on her mobile phone or her driver carrying her boxes and bags from the car into the house and up the stairs" (36). If Vivi is invading Ginny's privacy by entering her space, it seems to me Ginny is as much invading Vivi's privacy by her persistent and uncanny observation.

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blkeyesuzi wrote:
Something I noticed is that Vivi commented on on the bed, "Well, I suppose it's mine, too." As if she coming back into Ginny's life and laying claim to everything again after all these years. She walks into the bedroom without knocking, she immediately begins snooping around and complaining about the way Ginny has handled things. How many of you would be ok with a visitor like this?

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[Jeanie0522]

The OCD theory makes more and more sense with every chapter.  The bed sheets, the tea and the obsession with knowing the exact time...even to the point of wearing two wrist watches.  I find it interesting that Ginny seems to feel compasion for Vivi's past life.  That she mentions what a difficult life Vivi has had when it would seem from the outside looking in, that it was Ginny that has endured the sadness.  I'm really enjoying this book and think it is really well written and different.  (Different in a good way!)  -Jeanie

[detailmuse]

And that Ginny sleeps on Clive's side of the bed?

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Everyman wrote:

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carriele wrote:
I thought Vivi reacted to the bed in a state of confusion. Ginny has gotten rid of most of the belongings in the house and yet kept Clive and Maud's bed. She states she kept it because it is so comfortable. But is that the true reason? Also, why did Ginny stay in her parents room of the house as an adult?

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And is there any relationship between her sleeping in her father's bed and her wearing her father's cardy? Is there something suggestive here?

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[detailmuse]

Which makes me wonder -- why hasn't Ginny simply had the clapper removed so that the (real) bell no longer rings? Maybe she doesn't want to know that it's all in her head?

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ELee wrote:

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Everyman wrote:
A passage that struck me was on page 60 where she says "the reverberation of that single strike still trapped, rebounding in my head from when I was eleven..." I had forgotten that on page 14 she had mentioned that when Vivi fell she grabbed at the bell and "it rang, and the echo of that strike gave to me a resounding significance, a lifetime of noise."

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But what is really "striking" (pardon) is that the torment of the bell is not the memory of Vivi and her fall, the real "torment is not knowing if it's the sound's in my [Ginny's] head or if it's the real bell ringing in the wind".  She is so obsessed with what is real, real time, real sound, that it is more important to her than any other association.

[dewgirl]

KxBurns wrote:
The strange issue of Dr. Moyse is developed a little bit further – first we learn more about his visits, during which he played games with Ginny (the simplicity of which probably hide their deeper purpose from her), and then Vivi makes reference to some recurring and "peculiar" dreams that Ginny has about Dr. Moyse (p. 67). This statement could support suspicions that Dr. Moyse engaged in inappropriate behavior, but I think Vivi's comment points more to her knowing something about Ginny that Ginny herself does not know. What do you think?



I think that there is more to learn about the relationship between Dr. Moyse and Ginny. I could be inappropriate and could (hopefully) shed some light on what's going on with Ginny. I do agree that Vivi knows more about it than Ginny. Notice on p. 65 when Ginny mentions the card games with Dr. Moyse and starts to explain in more detail, Vivi cuts her off quickly. It does seem like Vivi has some knowledge of something that maybe she doesn't want to hear about from Ginny.

Maybe Dr. Moyse was doing experiments on Ginny? Just a thought.

[LeftBrainer]

Obsessive and something else.  The sheets, the tea, and nearly everything else.  I think Vivi is looking for something specfic,   She may be a refugee child who didn't have a family to go back to.  Anyone thing that is possible?  Nancy

[Des222]

I keep wondering: is it that she doesn't know or won't accept that she has "issues" of some kind. Those frequent doctor visits still have me wondering what was up...

[loguepa]

KxBurns wrote:
The strange issue of Dr. Moyse is developed a little bit further – first we learn more about his visits, during which he played games with Ginny (the simplicity of which probably hide their deeper purpose from her), and then Vivi makes reference to some recurring and "peculiar" dreams that Ginny has about Dr. Moyse (p. 67). This statement could support suspicions that Dr. Moyse engaged in inappropriate behavior, but I think Vivi's comment points more to her knowing something about Ginny that Ginny herself does not know. What do you think?

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dewgirl wrote:

I think that there is more to learn about the relationship between Dr. Moyse and Ginny. I could be inappropriate and could (hopefully) shed some light on what's going on with Ginny. I do agree that Vivi knows more about it than Ginny. Notice on p. 65 when Ginny mentions the card games with Dr. Moyse and starts to explain in more detail, Vivi cuts her off quickly. It does seem like Vivi has some knowledge of something that maybe she doesn't want to hear about from Ginny.

Maybe Dr. Moyse was doing experiments on Ginny? Just a thought.

Given the premise that there might be something mentally or pyschologically different with Ginny, I felt that the card games with Dr. Moyse may have been some sort of evaluation of her state, an ongoing testing of her mental health. The fact that the book up to this point was not more definitive as to what was "wrong" with Ginny (and one gets that feeling something is wrong almost from the beginning) has been very unsettling for me; I find myself searching for clues to this puzzle and losing focus on the story line...

Pat

[Des222]

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ELee wrote:

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Everyman wrote:
A passage that struck me was on page 60 where she says "the reverberation of that single strike still trapped, rebounding in my head from when I was eleven..." I had forgotten that on page 14 she had mentioned that when Vivi fell she grabbed at the bell and "it rang, and the echo of that strike gave to me a resounding significance, a lifetime of noise."

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But what is really "striking" (pardon) is that the torment of the bell is not the memory of Vivi and her fall, the real "torment is not knowing if it's the sound's in my [Ginny's] head or if it's the real bell ringing in the wind".  She is so obsessed with what is real, real time, real sound, that it is more important to her than any other association.  The further into this we get, the more I wonder just how much, if any, emotion she is capable of.  

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     The point you made is so intriguing...Ginny is so full of concern with regard to her life/her things/her time, that any attention to others seems non-existent, almost like her father's obsession. I'm curious if that is why she clings to things related to him...perhaps she felt he was the only one who understood her, and thus her only real outlet for an unconditional emotion.

[Des222]

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LisaMM wrote:
I liked the part about the chandelier on page 66. It shows how differently the sisters view their world. One so positive, one so negative.

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Isn't that so true about sisters? And families in general? When B&N first posted the excerpt from the book, I was excited to see how this timeless paradox would play out. As we're getting into the book, the analogy of the moths/cocoons etc. make me wonder if Ginny is headed for a cocoon, a metamorphosis, a new way of seeing things; perhaps even her sister.

[crazyasitsounds]

I can see how this chapter would lead the reader to believe that Ginny has a guilty conscience, but we already know what happened, right? Her conscience might be guilty in the sense that she wishes there was something she could have done, but it certainly doesn't seem like anything was her fault.

The passages about the "games" Dr. Moyse played with Ginny disconcerted me a little. Vivi's mysterious reference to Ginny's dreams about him didn't help matters, either. There's obviously something going on there, but Ginny's personality is so intractable that I'm having a hard time even speculating about what might have happened.

I have the impression that Clive's parenting & his social life are the opposite of his professional style & his interest in nature. He's not trying to figure other people out (& he doesn't really want to); he's trying not to deal with them.

[lmpmn]

For the 1st time in the story, I'm suspicious of Dr. Moyse.  I'd wondered why so many people wondered about his behavior toward Ginny.  I'm eager to hear more about why she had dreams about him.  However, she does say that when she was with the doctor, Maud would bring her biscuits and look over their shoulders.  I suspect Maud wouldn't have ever let anyone harm Ginny or Vivi.

Now I'm also suspicious for the first time about Vivien's return.  I did not like her comment that the bed was hers too.  Not!  How presumptious!

Ginny's thoughts make me giggle a bit sometimes.  Remember that saying?  Something like: there is a method to the madness.  I think there is Method in Ginny's madness!

Message Edited by lmpmn on 03-06-2008 02:33 AM

[blkeyesuzi]

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dewgirl wrote:
KxBurns wrote:
The strange issue of Dr. Moyse is developed a little bit further – first we learn more about his visits, during which he played games with Ginny (the simplicity of which probably hide their deeper purpose from her), and then Vivi makes reference to some recurring and "peculiar" dreams that Ginny has about Dr. Moyse (p. 67). This statement could support suspicions that Dr. Moyse engaged in inappropriate behavior, but I think Vivi's comment points more to her knowing something about Ginny that Ginny herself does not know. What do you think?



I think that there is more to learn about the relationship between Dr. Moyse and Ginny. I could be inappropriate and could (hopefully) shed some light on what's going on with Ginny. I do agree that Vivi knows more about it than Ginny. Notice on p. 65 when Ginny mentions the card games with Dr. Moyse and starts to explain in more detail, Vivi cuts her off quickly. It does seem like Vivi has some knowledge of something that maybe she doesn't want to hear about from Ginny.

Maybe Dr. Moyse was doing experiments on Ginny? Just a thought.

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Here's a fun hypothesis:

What if Dr. Moyse visits because he's actually Ginny's real father? He plays games with her and he tries to get to know her. But the family keeps it a secret from Ginny....Clive goes along with it and that's why Maude says she thought they could be a normal family.

Shot in the dark......Long shot ;-)

[grapes]

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pheath wrote:

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carriele wrote:

Speaking of the bed, I think we saw another bit of the problem that plagues Ginny since she states that she pins the sheets to the blanket and avoids messing up the bed. I can't imagine it ever taking 55 minutes to make a bed.

Carrie E.

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This would be true for a normal person, but for someone with OCD tendencies 55 minutes is probably not out of the question. I could picture a very methodical and scientific inspection that the bed would have to pass before Ginny would consider it acceptable.

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This really bothered me. Ginny pins the linens and the covers to keep the bed orderly and neat. Then, she carefully slips in the bed trying not to mess up the carefully made bed.When she gets up from bed, she slides out carefully in hopes to make the least amount of untidiness. This is really odd behavior. I am beginning to think Ginny is a person afraid of losing control. She lost control one day. This was the day of the bell Tower accident involving Vivi. Ginny was marked by that day because she loved Vivi so much. Now, she is afraid if she isn't very cautious and in control of daily situations another horrible incident might happen. Perhaps, subconsciously Ginny is doing penance by living a life of structure.

She says, "I live by it, Time and order. All things have order and people should be ordered, and I find that in most instances order requires some element of time." In other words, life has to be run like a tight ship.

Grapes

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[grapes]

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kbbg42 wrote:

The curtains not being there is not that unusual as Ginny wants an uninterrupted veiw of the world. She is voyeristic and feels safe being able to see what is going on from the safety of the house. I don't get the feeling that she fears being spied on as she is too far from the road for a casual passerby to spy on her. In the other discussions there was a lot of talk about Ginny having aspergers and I must admit after having read this chapter I feel  the same.

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The curtains put my focus more on Vivi than Ginny. Why doesn't Vivi see there aren't any curtains to be drawn? Is it silly to think Vivi may be blind? Look at the girl or woman on the cover. Her eyes speak to me. Is she trying to tell us something or is she blind? I wonder if this is Vivi. The butterflies around her might mean she went through a drastic metamorphisis. These are all guesses. Sometimes the mind jumps to conclusions. Is it alright to voice our assumptions here among other readers?

Grapes

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[swamplover]

After finishing the first 5 chapters, I'm convinced of the following:

Ginny definately has some "condition"  - whether Asperger's Syndrom, OCD, or something else is not clear to me yet.  It's surely not split personality with Vivi and Ginny the same person, a possibility I had considered earlier.

There is an absolute metaphor between Ginny's life and the life of moths.  It is everywhere.  She sees life in that way too - although she may not be conscious that she does, or that it is unusual in any way.  For instance: "What I fear is timelessness, a lack of structure in my life, an endless Now".   The lack of struturre is what is occurring in the pupal stage, the "pupal soup" referrred to in the Ch. 5.  And yet in Ch. 3 (p 39) she says, "I can feel the start of Vivien's and my relationship re-forming again . . .." And she goes on to comment - complain? - that is is exactly the same, not matured at all.  When the caterpillar re-forms inside the cocoon, it matures and comes out a moth.  She expects that the relationship should re-form and come out something else.  But what? 

I personally love all the scientific references and description.  Reminds me a bit of Barbara Kingsolver's Prodigal Summer  in that respect.  But then I suppose I'm something of an science geek  as I have a degree in Environmental Science.  Note my name 

[Oldesq]

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Everyman wrote:
Several people have commented about how strange it is that she has no curtains in her bedroom.

I don't find it that strange. She's out in the country, on the (to us) second floor, so what's the need for privacy? I suspect that probably there were old curtains there which had finally rotted away, and she never had the gumption to replace them.

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I would agree with you except that Vivi found it strange enough to comment on and Ginny (finally!) got that it was a joke suggesting that there was something strange about the arrangement.  Also, disposal of the curtains doesn't match up with the supposed rationale that she sold items as her pension. 

My first mental picture of this room was that it was just very sparsely furnished but then we learn that 5 or so panes are missing from the window, the wallpaper is peeling off in great hunks, damp and water marks are taking over and "avalanches of plaster" have come away from the walls.  It must literally look like a ruin but I can't wrap my head around the image.  I think part of the blame is the writing and part is the intended unreliability of the narrator. 

I wonder why the only piece of furniture Ginny consciously kept is an old nursing chair- hits on a theme of children again in that she uses this symbol of feeding new life as a stopping point to the bathroom when she can't "make it all in one go."   But it is turned toward the wall- a position no nursing mother would use- foreclosing the possibility of new life in this house. 

I did enjoy the language describing the now absent chandelier "raining shafts of providence" and "showing its mastery of the laws of refraction."

Is Ginny striving to become pupal soup where she deconstructs the world around her to its most base elements, cocoons herself in the cardigan and bed to enter some other plane of existence?

Like many others I am still trying to work out the card games with Dr. Moyse- why was Vivi not allowed to even watch- although it suggests the Dr. is a pedophile- that doesn't seem right as Maud approves of these games and even ruffles Ginny's hair when she plays them- but can we trust Ginny's memory?

I hope we learn what took the gleam out of Vivi's eyes- why "life hurt her too much" (p. 70) and why she is "infecting the house." (p. 73).

Oldesq

Message Edited by Oldesq on 03-06-2008 08:12 AM

[kmensing]

Why does the memory of the bell haunt Ginny? Guilt? Or just simply remembering the fall?

“as if her presence has given them the courage to crawl out of the past”

Ginny, referring to past memories, makes me think Ginny getting close to revealing much more.

Ginny keeps stating “I can’t remember if it’s real or something I made up”. She recognizes her own issues. And I don’t like this Dr/patient relationship.

Page 3--”after an absence of nearly fifty years”--Then on Page 65--”but it’s not as if I’ve had anyone sitting on my bed for forty years”. Was there a man for 10 years?

Pg 69--Vivi states, “I suppose it’s really my bed too”. What exactly has Vivi come home for? To put ownership on everything in the house?