Chapter 8: The Apprentice [ Edited ]

[ELee]

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Everyman wrote:
LisaMM wrote: >Oh, I think the groping occurred. I think Ginny just went to her mental "happy place" that Maud taught her to use as a coping mechanism, and didn't realize when the groping actually stopped until she opened her eyes.

And how do you explain, then, "All of a sudden I was naked. Bernard was a dog full of instinct...then I closed ny eyes so I could go into that place..." She says she didn't go to the place until after she felt herself naked. The order is wrong.

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I think that everything happened up until The Hand Became Capitalized.  There was probably some "cupping" action and "thumb caressing", but I think by the time she says she "couldn't think straight"  and The Hand began "stroking" her bottom, she was hard on the approach to her "happy place" because she could not process what was happening to her.   

Message Edited by ELee on 03-05-2008 07:52 PM

[DSaff]

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COCOSPALS wrote:

I don't know, I may have missed something, but I do not really get any "father" feelings out of Clive. I find him cold and sterile and wrapped up in his little world. As far as the groping incident, I do believe  that Ginny believes it happened.

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I agree. Clive doesn't seem like much of a father, but I do think he cares. (although that may just be my optimism talking) He seems so wrapped up in his study of moths that he can't see the real life changes happening before his eyes. Ginny apparently gets more attention due to her interest in his work.

I also believe that the groping incident occurred (although not to the extent we read in the book), but it seems most important that Ginny believes it happened.

[gosox]

I agree with the general consensus that the groping incident and scientific discussion was creepy.

In this chapter we also get more insight into the relationship between Maud and Clive when after a discussion of eccentricity and genius Ginny states that "Maud said Clive was the only one who didn't try to be eccentric and was." (88) What is she trying to say? Does she respect Clive and/or his work, or does her relationship serve a purpose for her, especially if that purpose is to be superior? She does seem to be condescending to her husband and her daughters. I am curious to know if we will learn more about Maud.

[runnybabbit620]

I find it very surprising that with Clive's passion for lepidoptery and his apprenticeship with Maud's father, that he never pursued his interest in the study to any real recognition of sorts.  He seems comfortable to make his studies and then review/share his results with the Royal Entomological Society.  (This time bringing Ginny along with him for the experience in an apprenticeship that is now hers.) 

Also, it's as if, with their multiple generations of knowledge and studies, that they view themselves and their studies as far superior to the "amateurs made up of ex-medical men...ex-military men (who were only interested in collecting beautiful speciments to display alongside their medals), and clergymen (who had far too much spare time...)"

As for Bernard's (or someone else's?) reaction, I think that the circumstance did indeed happen.  We are unsure if it is indeed Bernard, but then that also lends further future interaction with Bernard to a strained communication, I believe.  I think, in that time, something like that happened far too often and especially with women as there were no sexual assault rules in place, especially for the workplace.

[Lildove3]

I feel that Ginny was put aside, like she wasn't there, until the episode with Bernard, which i thought it

was kind of strange to put such a bizzare twist in this chapter, but then again this story sort makes me think

this whole story is kind of about a disfunctional family with a life story to go with it.

[ladytoad]

Several people have commented on the amount of science in this chapter, but I do think Clive's theories are interesting, especially when the rector challenges him on the decision-making capabilities of the moth. I was reminded of some of the current debates going on about the role of evolution. Clive seems to be very scientific and not inclined to believe much in human feelings or emotion, not even love.

As for the situation with Bernard, all I could think was, "I really hope this book isn't going to hinge on some repressed memory regarding sexual abuse."

[Frank_n_beans]

There were a few things that stood out for me in this chapter but one I wanted to specifically comment on and that was the debate that took place between the rector and Clive.   On page 86-87, the rector says to Clive: "You really believe that insects are living automatons?  They have no emotions, no sentiment, no interests, and no mind?"   I was surprised that the rector took this point of view.  To me, possessing these qualities is akin to having a soul.  I would have thought, therefore, that the rector would welcome Clive's view of insects since (in my opinion) it functions to further underline the importance of humans and to distinguish them from other living animals that do not have souls.  I guess it was a little difficult for me to believe in this character and in the realism of the debate.   If this rector does believe that insects have desires/sentiments and emotions, I wonder what he would then say separates humans from insects and other animals?? 

Oh and as for the groping incident...I felt that it was a real event, although I interpreted the event to last longer in Ginny's mind than it did in reality. 

[Des222]

I'm with you on this one. I definitely think the groping occured, and Ginny's reaction is actually a realistic one if she has a mental illness. Given that I believe her Dr. was simply a psychiatrist-type trying to work with her and her "issues", Ginny hasn't had any real relationships or sexual experiences; being groped by a trusted, older man would send many young women reeling. Remember, too, that she had a reaction to that touch; perhaps she sensed it was wrong, and yet it was stimulating at some level. Yuck! But, it's those chemicals Clive's so fond of..

[krb2g]

I'm finding the family's relation to lepidoptery (every time I type the word, I think I'm spelling it incorrectly!) very bizarre. They obviously have a passion for it, which is believable, and they want to be professional about it (also believable), but can you be entirely self-taught and self-funded doing novel scientific work in the 20th century? Sure, Clive has modified the family car so much that the girls' trips to and from their boarding school, rolling around in the backseat with all the chemicals, seems very unsafe, and he does share his results/go to conferences, but I'm finding it very hard to believe that Clive (or Ginny) is such a great lepidopterist just hanging out at home all the time.

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runnybabbit620 wrote:

I find it very surprising that with Clive's passion for lepidoptery and his apprenticeship with Maud's father, that he never pursued his interest in the study to any real recognition of sorts. He seems comfortable to make his studies and then review/share his results with the Royal Entomological Society. (This time bringing Ginny along with him for the experience in an apprenticeship that is now hers.)

Also, it's as if, with their multiple generations of knowledge and studies, that they view themselves and their studies as far superior to the "amateurs made up of ex-medical men...ex-military men (who were only interested in collecting beautiful speciments to display alongside their medals), and clergymen (who had far too much spare time...)"

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[crazyasitsounds]

I think that, by describing Clive only as a scientist, we're supposed to make inferences about his personality based on his scientific work, lectures, etc. When (& if) we finally do learn about what he was like as a parent/husband/person, I think we'll be surprised. At this point, it feels like Adams is setting it up that way on purpose.

I agree about the importance of the role of free will, too. I do think it's going to be important to decide how much of the characters' lives is preordained & how much is a result of conscious decision-making.

I'm almost positive Ginny did get groped. She got flustered, lost her awareness of the situation, imagined it getting worse, & didn't realize when Bernard had stopped.

Maud seems to be getting alienated now that Vivi's gone. Two against one.

[kmensing]

Bernard makes a pass at Ginny & she has now idea how to handle the situation. With Vivi being so outgoing, I would have thought that sex would have been a topic of conversation.

I'm having trouble figuring out if Bernard actually groped Ginny or if it was just her imagination.  I would also would have liked more information regarding Ginny's age.  How old is Ginny at this point?

Pg.93--is this Ginny’s first panic attack?

Does Maud want Ginny to succeed only because she is a woman in a man's profession or does she need someone to spy on Clive?

[AmyEJ]

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ELee wrote:

I think that everything happened up until The Hand Became Capitalized.  There was probably some "cupping" action and "thumb caressing", but I think by the time she says she "couldn't think straight"  and The Hand began "stroking" her bottom, she was hard on the approach to her "happy place" because she could not process what was happening to her.   

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That's kind of what I thought, too.  She was starting to get so freaked out by what was happening that her mind was racing as the anxiety was building.  When it got to be too much for her then she finally went to her "happy place." 

[AmyEJ]

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ladytoad wrote:

Several people have commented on the amount of science in this chapter, but I do think Clive's theories are interesting, especially when the rector challenges him on the decision-making capabilities of the moth. I was reminded of some of the current debates going on about the role of evolution. Clive seems to be very scientific and not inclined to believe much in human feelings or emotion, not even love.

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I think the theories are interesting, too.  And I had to laugh out loud at Ginny's retelling of Maud's description of the scientists and their "honing" of the eccentricities they wanted to be known for.  And it distinguished Clive as a person who didn't try to be eccentric, he just was. 

[SleightGirl]

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Everyman wrote:

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carriele wrote:
I couldn't help but think that the groping by Bernard never occurred at all.

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I tend to agree, though I could be persuaded otherwise.

Perhaps as the only woman in the room she naturally felt herself not only a bit out of place, but a sexual anomaly and perhaps objectification?

At any rate, it was definitely weird. And so far unexplained.

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I see it as really happening.  Ginny doesn't seem like the type who thinks about her sexuality at all, and even when she tells us about what happened, it seems a very awkward description...like something it never occured to her could happen. 

[Peppermill]

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krb2g wrote:
I'm finding the family's relation to lepidoptery (every time I type the word, I think I'm spelling it incorrectly!) very bizarre.

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Don't feel lonely. Merriam Webster (even unabridged) does not recognize "lepidoptery".

[fordmg]

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COCOSPALS wrote:

I don't know, I may have missed something, but I do not really get any "father" feelings out of Clive. I find him cold and sterile and wrapped up in his little world. As far as the groping incident, I do believe  that Ginny believes it happened.

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Cold and sterile just as Clive states that animals don't have feelings or emotions, just mechanical reactions.

MG

[fordmg]

Please stop shouting at us.

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kmensing wrote:

Bernard makes a pass at Ginny & she has now idea how to handle the situation. With Vivi being so outgoing, I would have thought that sex would have been a topic of conversation.

I'm having trouble figuring out if Bernard actually groped Ginny or if it was just her imagination.  I would also would have liked more information regarding Ginny's age.  How old is Ginny at this point?

Pg.93--is this Ginny’s first panic attack?

Does Maud want Ginny to succeed only because she is a woman in a man's profession or does she need someone to spy on Clive?

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[Everyman]

Does Adams actually use the term lepidoptery? The OED doesn't recognize it either. They do recognize lepidopterology.But if Adams actually uses lepidoptery, she's inventing a new word or using one that the OED doesn't recognize, which IMO is the same thing. Can anybody cite a page on which she uses lepidoptery? If so, I would like to ask the editor about it when he or she comes on board in a few days.

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Peppermill wrote:

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krb2g wrote:
I'm finding the family's relation to lepidoptery (every time I type the word, I think I'm spelling it incorrectly!) very bizarre.

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Don't feel lonely. Merriam Webster (even unabridged) does not recognize "lepidoptery".

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[umlaut]

on page 92 "as animal gets more advanced in their biochemical process it becomes too complicated to try to orchestrate everything in terms of reflex and reaction... and make decision for itself"
too me this shows a relationships between the *grouping hand* incident implying, how this grouping is not a reflex but actually a conscious effort on part of Ginny's mental coping issue. This is the first *major* incident mentioned very clearly by the author that Ginny has experienced problems in past and to cope with this issue she has tried to push it out of her memory as her mom has shown her to do. I am starting to believe there is something very wrong with this person(Ginny) and we are in for a *treat* as we or she starts to recall past incident.

[bettymac]

in response to... couldn't help but think that the groping by Bernard never occurred at all. When I read the account, it seemed odd to me. Whether it happened or not, I think it was a sign of just how vulnerable Ginny felt in social situations and how unsure of herself she truly is...



Remember that Maud makes a comment about Ginny's being the only woman there...hinting possibly that the incident could be real...maybe not as extreme as Ginny remembers it, but real, nontheless...

Some one else mentioned that the discipline seemed to be left to Maud...but Clive is the one who makes the decision that Vivi can go to London...he must some influence in the parenting...will be interesting to learn more about Vivi's strong negative feelings towards him.