Chapter 8: The Apprentice--Lepidoptery

[Laurel]

My American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition, 2000, gives 'lepidoptery' first, with 'lepidopterology' as an alternate. I've seen the two words used interchangeably, though I've seldom seen 'lepidopterology.' (Funny, the spell-checker that pops up as I type this doesn't want me to use either term; it suggests that 'helicopter' or 'epidemiology' might be more appropriate. The word I see most often is the more general 'entomologist.' (I had to look up the spelling of that one, too.)

At any rate, The Guardian let 'lepidoptery' pass in this very interesting article.

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Everyman wrote:
Does Adams actually use the term lepidoptery? The OED doesn't recognize it either. They do recognize lepidopterology.But if Adams actually uses lepidoptery, she's inventing a new word or using one that the OED doesn't recognize, which IMO is the same thing. Can anybody cite a page on which she uses lepidoptery? If so, I would like to ask the editor about it when he or she comes on board in a few days.

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Peppermill wrote:

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krb2g wrote:
I'm finding the family's relation to lepidoptery (every time I type the word, I think I'm spelling it incorrectly!) very bizarre.

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Don't feel lonely. Merriam Webster (even unabridged) does not recognize "lepidoptery".

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[detailmuse]

Character names aren't accidental. It's interesting that Clive's (and presumably the family's) surname is Stone (p86).

Interesting synonyms from the thesaurus:

rock (hard)

pit (kernal, seed)

or as a verb, to throw rocks at

[detailmuse]

We don't know this, there are a lot of unaccounted-for years. Who knows what Ginny has left to tell us?

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Des222 wrote:

I definitely think the groping occured, and Ginny's reaction is actually a realistic one if she has a mental illness. [...] Ginny hasn't had any real relationships or sexual experiences

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[SweetReaderMA]

I agree that the hand of Bernard on her bottom passage might have been a reminder to watch out for the accuracy of Ginny's narration but is it also possible that it really happened and that it so traumatized her that she started to be confused after that???

[Skelly7645]

I believe that the groping hand episode did happen.  As I read it, I thought, typical of Clive, he is so "in his own world of moths and science" that he didn't even have a "fatherly" sense about what was happening to Ginny.  She is so consumed with her own issues, and I think that she is so unworldly that she was unsure what to make of the incident and the "feelings" that she had at the time.  I thought that the most important part of the chapter revolved around the way Clive and Ginny reacted to Maud, who clearly just wished to be included and a part of the family that evening, after they had been out all day. I really felt sorry for Maud at that point.

[bettymac]

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Skelly7645 wrote:

I believe that the groping hand episode did happen. As I read it, I thought, typical of Clive, he is so "in his own world of moths and science" that he didn't even have a "fatherly" sense about what was happening to Ginny. She is so consumed with her own issues, and I think that she is so unworldly that she was unsure what to make of the incident and the "feelings" that she had at the time. I thought that the most important part of the chapter revolved around the way Clive and Ginny reacted to Maud, who clearly just wished to be included and a part of the family that evening, after they had been out all day. I really felt sorry for Maud at that point.

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Clive probably would not have thought to worry about Bernard...after all, he is a highly respected man in their world and also a personal friend...he is at their home often, according to Ginny...

[bookhunter]

Frank_n_beans wrote:

"On page 86-87, the rector says to Clive: "You really believe that insects are living automatons?  They have no emotions, no sentiment, no interests, and no mind?"   I was surprised that the rector took this point of view.  To me, possessing these qualities is akin to having a soul.  I would have thought, therefore, that the rector would welcome Clive's view of insects since (in my opinion) it functions to further underline the importance of humans and to distinguish them from other living animals that do not have souls."

I think the rector's perspective, from a 1950's view, is that analyzing something to death takes all the "mystery" out of how and why things in nature work the way they do.  To the rector, God's presence is defined by that part of the world that is unknown and unknowable.  If you can explain why a caterpillar spins a cocoon, then why would you need GOD to be the explanation?

Ann, bookhunter

(LOVING this book!)

[bookhunter]

Karen wrote:

"I thought the debate between Clive and his professional peers was captivating, as it brings up questions of free will, determinism, intent, and self-awareness. These appear to be major themes in this book and I think we will eventually be asked to form our own opinion about how great a role these principles play in the lives of the characters."

This chapter was so, so fascinating to me.  When you read the scientific discussions on moths and replace the word with "humans" you get a different perspective. 

For example, Clive's arguments that a moth does not "choose" to reproduce and that emotions are just a "symptom caused by a particular chemical being released into your brain and central nervous system..."  are commentaries on their own personalities.  Ginny has said her future as her father's apprentice was predetermined.  She never made a choice.

Please, please don't skim over the "science" part of this book--I really think the behavior of moths (wouldn't that make a great title?) also explains (or questions) the behavior of the humans in this book!

I just love the irony of Clive explaining that all animals, humans included, are victims of their self-determining hormones while his daughter is being groped.  Is that Bernard's excuse?  I Couldn't Help Myself?  And what would Clive have said if he knew?  And could Ginny "help" her reaction--her fantasy of being naked?

This family is divided right down the middle.  Clive and Ginny are both scientific, rational to a fault, single-minded (obsessive?), and yet, clueless to the people around them.  Maud and Vivi are social, worldly, humorous (in comparison, at least!), and at a loss as to how to deal with Clive and Ginny. 

Ann, bookhunter

(has modern science isolated the book-buying addiction hormone?)

[paula_02912]

bookhunter wrote: "Please, please don't skim over the "science" part of this book--I really think the behavior of moths (wouldn't that make a great title?) also explains (or questions) the behavior of the humans in this book!"

I second this statement bookhunter...I feel that reading about Moths, helps us to further understand not only Clive, but also Ginny...it also gives us some insight into Maud and Vivi...at first we think she (Maud/Vivi) is "perfect," but I think Clive was successful in creating an imperfect specimen with her, his ultimate find...I think...

[paula_02912]

SweetReaderMA wrote: "I agree that the hand of Bernard on her bottom passage might have been a reminder to watch out for the accuracy of Ginny's narration but is it also possible that it really happened and that it so traumatized her that she started to be confused after that??? "

SweetReader, I also wondered about Ginny's mental state after reading this passage...her confusion about the whole episode made me question her reliability, but I also questioned whether or not this incident was so traumatic to her that it influenced the person she became; a recluse with little socialization...I also got the sense that she was feeling claustrophic and trapped in a corner with him...was this truly how she felt...did she feel suffocated by the fact that she was pushed into a field of study that she may not have wanted in the first place...as a child, she longed to travel and be as adventurous as Vivi, what changed that?

[Laurel]

Great thoughts, Ann and Karen! The moths are there for a reason. I think even the fact that the girls call their parents by their first names is there for a reason. Remember Eustace Clarence Scrubb in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader? He called his parents 'Harold' and 'Alberta,' was raised by new scientific principles, was sent away to an experimental school, liked, animals, especially ones he could pin to a card. His parents had the same ideas as Clive about what love, tenderness, and longings "really" are. Same England; same time period.

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bookhunter wrote:

Karen wrote:

"I thought the debate between Clive and his professional peers was captivating, as it brings up questions of free will, determinism, intent, and self-awareness. These appear to be major themes in this book and I think we will eventually be asked to form our own opinion about how great a role these principles play in the lives of the characters."

This chapter was so, so fascinating to me. When you read the scientific discussions on moths and replace the word with "humans" you get a different perspective.

For example, Clive's arguments that a moth does not "choose" to reproduce and that emotions are just a "symptom caused by a particular chemical being released into your brain and central nervous system..." are commentaries on their own personalities. Ginny has said her future as her father's apprentice was predetermined. She never made a choice.

Please, please don't skim over the "science" part of this book--I really think the behavior of moths (wouldn't that make a great title?) also explains (or questions) the behavior of the humans in this book!

I just love the irony of Clive explaining that all animals, humans included, are victims of their self-determining hormones while his daughter is being groped. Is that Bernard's excuse? I Couldn't Help Myself? And what would Clive have said if he knew? And could Ginny "help" her reaction--her fantasy of being naked?

This family is divided right down the middle. Clive and Ginny are both scientific, rational to a fault, single-minded (obsessive?), and yet, clueless to the people around them. Maud and Vivi are social, worldly, humorous (in comparison, at least!), and at a loss as to how to deal with Clive and Ginny.

Ann, bookhunter

(has modern science isolated the book-buying addiction hormone?)

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[paula_02912]

kmensing wrote: "I would also would have liked more information regarding Ginny's age.  How old is Ginny at this point?"

kmensing, I believe that Ginny is about 18 at this point...look on page 85...she said her 'official entry into the world of entomology, as Clive's apprentice, in the autumn of the year that Vivi went to London..." I believe Vivi was 15 years old at the time, making Ginny 18, since she was three years older than her...look on p.79 again...it tells you how old Vivi is...

[paula_02912]

In the Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary Third Edition, the term lepidoptery doesn't even show up...it lists lepidoptera, lepidopteran, lepidopterist, lepidopterology...etc...

[KxBurns]

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Laurel wrote:
My American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition, 2000, gives 'lepidoptery' first, with 'lepidopterology' as an alternate. I've seen the two words used interchangeably, though I've seldom seen 'lepidopterology.' (Funny, the spell-checker that pops up as I type this doesn't want me to use either term; it suggests that 'helicopter' or 'epidemiology' might be more appropriate. The word I see most often is the more general 'entomologist.' (I had to look up the spelling of that one, too.)

At any rate, The Guardian let 'lepidoptery' pass in this very interesting article.

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Everyman wrote:
Does Adams actually use the term lepidoptery? The OED doesn't recognize it either. They do recognize lepidopterology.But if Adams actually uses lepidoptery, she's inventing a new word or using one that the OED doesn't recognize, which IMO is the same thing. Can anybody cite a page on which she uses lepidoptery? If so, I would like to ask the editor about it when he or she comes on board in a few days.

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Peppermill wrote:

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krb2g wrote:
I'm finding the family's relation to lepidoptery (every time I type the word, I think I'm spelling it incorrectly!) very bizarre.

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Don't feel lonely. Merriam Webster (even unabridged) does not recognize "lepidoptery".

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Oh, good - I was starting to think maybe I "invented" it  

[KxBurns]

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runnybabbit620 wrote:

I find it very surprising that with Clive's passion for lepidoptery and his apprenticeship with Maud's father, that he never pursued his interest in the study to any real recognition of sorts.  He seems comfortable to make his studies and then review/share his results with the Royal Entomological Society.  (This time bringing Ginny along with him for the experience in an apprenticeship that is now hers.) 

Also, it's as if, with their multiple generations of knowledge and studies, that they view themselves and their studies as far superior to the "amateurs made up of ex-medical men...ex-military men (who were only interested in collecting beautiful speciments to display alongside their medals), and clergymen (who had far too much spare time...)"

As for Bernard's (or someone else's?) reaction, I think that the circumstance did indeed happen.  We are unsure if it is indeed Bernard, but then that also lends further future interaction with Bernard to a strained communication, I believe.  I think, in that time, something like that happened far too often and especially with women as there were no sexual assault rules in place, especially for the workplace.

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Oh, I disagree that Clive is satisfied by his outsider status. Ginny tells us that he is consumed by the desire to make a real, major discovery (thus his fixation on decoding pupal soup). I also think the account of the conference and having to humor the impertinence of amateurs reveals Clive's desire to be considered legitimate in his field.

It does bring up the curious question of why nobody in this family of means had access to higher education in their chosen field. If Ginny was really to be Clive's successor, why didn't he push her to pursue formal studies in lepidoptery? Because he knew she wasn't able for it?... 

[Laurel]

I doubt whether there is a place where one could formally study lepidopterology. Entomology, perhaps, but more likely it would be fit in somewhere in environmental studies, or whatever that might be called now. Clive's degree was in chemistry, and that was the study he was interested in: the chemistry of the transformation from pupa to adult, genetics. I think he was looking for something that was not being taught in the schools and he felt Ginny was more valuable to him as his assistant than she would be in a school that did not teach what he was looking for.

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KxBurns wrote:

Oh, I disagree that Clive is satisfied by his outsider status. Ginny tells us that he is consumed by the desire to make a real, major discovery (thus his fixation on decoding pupal soup). I also think the account of the conference and having to humor the impertinence of amateurs reveals Clive's desire to be considered legitimate in his field.

It does bring up the curious question of why nobody in this family of means had access to higher education in their chosen field. If Ginny was really to be Clive's successor, why didn't he push her to pursue formal studies in lepidoptery? Because he knew she wasn't able for it?...

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[lmpmn]

I think the groping happened and she had a panic attack.  That's why it seemed like his hand was still there when he had moved on.  It's possible that she'd had panic attacks before, and Maud taught her how to go deep into herself to calm down and out of the attack.  I agree with the other person who said that as soon as his hand became The Hand--that's when the panic took over and reality became unreal.

[mnotto]

This chapter illustrates an intersting side to Ginny's psyche.  I do believe that the groping incident occurred; however, Ginny's reaction and perception of how it happened shows that she is a very conflicted individual.  I think, at this point in the book, we can assume that Ginny is not merely "eccentric," but really does suffer from some sort of mental illness.   

[kmensing]

So sorry!  Just copying & pasting from my notes and couldn't figure out how to change my font later on.

Sincerest appologies--kmensing

P.S.---to be honest, if I were shouting, wouldn't I have posted in all caps????

[kmensing]

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paula_02912 wrote:

kmensing wrote: "I would also would have liked more information regarding Ginny's age.  How old is Ginny at this point?"

kmensing, I believe that Ginny is about 18 at this point...look on page 85...she said her 'official entry into the world of entomology, as Clive's apprentice, in the autumn of the year that Vivi went to London..." I believe Vivi was 15 years old at the time, making Ginny 18, since she was three years older than her...look on p.79 again...it tells you how old Vivi is...

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Thank you! 

kmensing