BookWoman718 wrote:I tend to think the groping did happen - although the event is now so far in the past that the question of how long it lasted may be valid. What is more interesting to me is that readers assume that because Ginny is judged to be a non-credible witness in other matters, she is non-credible in this event as well. What does that say about the vulnerability of institutionalized women, elderly forgetful women, young children of both sexes, and others we, who feel we have a firm grip on 'reality', tend to dismiss as tellers of tall tales? I think men in the era of Ginny's youth were very cavalier about taking liberties with young women who were seen as inferior in position, e.g., secretaries, office workers, nurses, servants. Often resting in the assumption that the women would be too embarrassed to speak up, as Ginny was.
BookWoman718: A difficult to handle truth, that many turn a blind eye toward because it is hard to fathom. I think your point is clear, and concise, and deserves another look. Well stated!
LizzieAnn wrote:
The chapter left me a little off-kilter. First, there was a bit too much science for me.
The incident with Bernard Cartwright was downright weird. Ginny not being able to decide if she was being fondled or not? That's too hard to believe. She tries to rationalize it. More importantly, she doesn't move away even though she feels uncomfortable. She doesn't even realize he's moved away until she sees him in front of her, after that woozy feeling she has. I can't help but wonder if she didn't imagine it.
LizzieAnn: We all seem to have different opinions about the amount of scientific information, and the reasons it is presented (we must agree to disagree
). I think the way the author presents the information is appropriate and relative to the story. I also disagree that Ginny's actions, and situation, were hard to believe. I think her reaction, to the groping situation, was pretty much spot-on. Most people may have had the initial "freezing" response, followed by rationalization, and then may have reacted to the situation by saying something, or removing themselves, but only if the felt like the threat level was low enough to make such a move.Since Ginny clearly has a history of social (and possibly emotional)problems, her reaction is going to be more intense than the average person. The reason "She doesn't even realize he's moved away until she sees him in front of her" is that she is no longer functioning in an aware mental state. She has withdrawn to a divided part of consciousness (dissociative state), where she feels she is safe from further emotional harm. People in this state can function much like everyone else, but have little or no recollection of the events happening while they are in this type of a state (like the brain is on autopilot). I'd bet the "woozy feeling she has" is severe anxiety precipitating her break. I am sure that the events did happen, much like Ginny remembered them, before she got "too" anxious, where she says "I couldn't think straight. The floor melted..."(93). Then her memories a become distorted by the anxiety, and stress.
pigwidgeon wrote:
BookWoman718 wrote:I tend to think the groping did happen - although the event is now so far in the past that the question of how long it lasted may be valid. What is more interesting to me is that readers assume that because Ginny is judged to be a non-credible witness in other matters, she is non-credible in this event as well. What does that say about the vulnerability of institutionalized women, elderly forgetful women, young children of both sexes, and others we, who feel we have a firm grip on 'reality', tend to dismiss as tellers of tall tales? I think men in the era of Ginny's youth were very cavalier about taking liberties with young women who were seen as inferior in position, e.g., secretaries, office workers, nurses, servants. Often resting in the assumption that the women would be too embarrassed to speak up, as Ginny was.
BookWoman718: A difficult to handle truth, that many turn a blind eye toward because it is hard to fathom. I think your point is clear, and concise, and deserves another look. Well stated!
I almost hate to add this here, but perhaps it is a way of suggesting some of the ways attitudes have both changed (thank goodness) and stayed the same since the 1700's.
The whole Bernard groping Ginny sequence reminded me of this passage from Voltaire's Candide, Chapter I:
"One day Cunegonde, while walking near the castle, in a little wood which they called a park, saw between the bushes, Dr. Pangloss giving a lesson in experimental natural philosophy to her mother's chamber-maid, a little brown wench, very pretty and very docile. As Miss Cunegonde had a great disposition for the sciences, she breathlessly observed the repeated experiments of which she was a witness; she clearly perceived the force of the Doctor's reasons, the effects, and the causes; she turned back greatly flurried, quite pensive, and filled with the desire to be learned; dreaming that she might well be a sufficient reason for young Candide, and he for her.
"She met Candide on reaching the castle and blushed; Candide blushed also; she wished him good morrow in a faltering tone, and Candide spoke to her without knowing what he said. The next day after dinner, as they went from table, Cunegonde and Candide found themselves behind a screen; Cunegonde let fall her handkerchief, Candide picked it up, she took him innocently by the hand, the youth as innocently kissed the young lady's hand with particular vivacity, sensibility, and grace; their lips met, their eyes sparkled, their knees trembled, their hands strayed. Baron Thunder-ten-Tronckh passed near the screen and beholding this cause and effect chased Candide from the castle with great kicks on the backside; Cunegonde fainted away; she was boxed on the ears by the Baroness, as soon as she came to herself; and all was consternation in this most magnificent and most agreeable of all possible castles."
The tipping point for me in viewing the Bernard passages as perhaps satirical was the sentence, as tightly packed among others as Bernard was against Ginny among the listening audience: "It was the same question to which the entire room wanted to know the answer." p. 93. Then I went back to the passage beginning: "I clenched my bottom muscles a couple of times, hoping he'd feel the movement and realize his mistake--the equivalent of a sharp look of distaste--but he merely shifted his hand a little, so intent was he on the conversation going on in front of him.
"'You think a dog has instinct, don't you?' a walrus-like man asked my father.
"'Yes.'
"'So where do you draw the line in the animal kingdom between those that have developed instinct and those that haven't?'
"'I don't. All animals have instinct. The difference is most of them don't know about it...."
And it goes on. And when I read the section as satire, it becomes wickedly funny.
