Chapter 9: Another Trap [ Edited ]

[KxBurns]

Hmm, so 1959 is "the year that changed everything" (p. 99)...

Here, we get a closer look at Maud's exclusion from Clive and Ginny's partnership (which Ginny describes as both "remarkable" and "wonderful") in the absence of Vivien.

How do you interpret the scene that unfolds on pages 104 to 107? Is Maud drunk? Do you sense she is desperate to gain entry to Clive and Ginny's little club? Or is our impression skewed by Ginny's point of view? Clive clearly loves the present his wife has chosen.

Why do you think Clive keeps his planned challenge of the classification system a secret from Ginny until it is revealed at the conference?

Does the title of this chapter have duel meaning, and if so, to what does "another trap" refer, aside from Robinson's trap?

Message Edited by KxBurns on 03-05-2008 12:40 PM

[AnnaB]

I do feel that Maud is a drunk, I sense that she is lonely above anything else.  I think she longs to feel included (whether she is truly interested in the research or not).  I found Clive's reaction to the Robinson Trap interesting, he pretended not to be interested in it all, yet was as a little child at Christmas when he received it.  His pride remained however as he "critiqued" it as he put it together. 

[Everyman]

Well, I confess it.

I am finding the perpetual angst of this book and the way too many obvious attempts to create mystery to be too much for my tastes. The end of chapter 9, "I wasn't to find out for two more years, on the day Mother died, why he was so unusually interested in it" to be the last straw. I just had to sigh and say "oh, come on." If she was truly his assistant, why wouldn't he have told her? The only point of withholding that would seem to be for Adams to add yet another cliffhanger to a book that is so full of them that it's tiring.

And the moths. Yes, the discussion of free will was interesting as a philosophical discussion, but otherwise, how could moths be made any less interesting? I tend to enjoy books whose authors take me into unfamiliar realms of activity. Trollope and his fox-hunting; normally I have very little interest in fox hunting, but Trollope pulls me into it and arouses my interest. Dick Francis and racing: I have never been to a horse race, was not raised around horses, and but for a summer when I dated a girl who owned horses have had nothing to do with them and no particular interest in them, but Francis makes the smallest details of racing fascinating and draws me inexorably into that world. The campanology of Dorothy Sayers's The Nine Tailors, the Egyptology of Peters's Amelia Peabody books, have both given me great enjoyment learning about things I didn't realize I could be much interested in. But frankly I don't find anything of this sort with Adams and her moths. After several chapters of them I never want to hear another word about moths (but I know I will).

I frankly don't care whether Ginny pushed Vivi off the bell tower or not. Push, no push, who cares? Not I.

If this were a book I had gotten out of the library, it would go back unfinished. Because I so greatly enjoy the discussions here and enjoy being a part of them I will stick with the book. Even a not very good book can be the basis of a very good discussion.

But unless things get a lot better very soon, this is not a book I will recommend to any friend whose good opinion I value.

Enough of this rant. Back to the discussion, with thanks to everyone here for making that discussion so interesting and enjoyable.

[Sisters3]

I, too, have to say that I am having a difficult time staying interested in this book. It just

doesn't seem to hold together very well from chapter to chapter and I am sorry to say that.

I feel like with the other two great choices of books, where was the great interest in this one drawn

from? 

I will continue to read it as well. I am hoping that it will all make sense to why it was chosen,

in the end.

Again, I am sorry for this poor recommendation thus far...

[cocospals]

I have to agree with you Everyman.  I found the extensive examination of the moths to be boring...and what was the point of carrying on so long about it. I find it hard to believe that this will come into play further on down the line. I am having a really hard time staying with the book. With the House at Riverton, I could find points that were worth posting about, sometimes a setting, sometimes a charactor point, but with the discussion for this book, I find myself expressing my opinion in response to the questions posted but that is about it.

In response to the questions on this chapter, I don't think Maud in drinking to get into Clive and Ginny's little group, I think she is drinking to response to it. She is left out, lonesome, bored silly, so as many do, she has turned to the bottle. It is an escape for her just as Clive and Ginny escape into "moth world".

---

Everyman wrote:
Well, I confess it.

I am finding the perpetual angst of this book and the way too many obvious attempts to create mystery to be too much for my tastes. The end of chapter 9, "I wasn't to find out for two more years, on the day Mother died, why he was so unusually interested in it" to be the last straw. I just had to sigh and say "oh, come on." If she was truly his assistant, why wouldn't he have told her? The only point of withholding that would seem to be for Adams to add yet another cliffhanger to a book that is so full of them that it's tiring.

And the moths. Yes, the discussion of free will was interesting as a philosophical discussion, but otherwise, how could moths be made any less interesting? I tend to enjoy books whose authors take me into unfamiliar realms of activity. Trollope and his fox-hunting; normally I have very little interest in fox hunting, but Trollope pulls me into it and arouses my interest. Dick Francis and racing: I have never been to a horse race, was not raised around horses, and but for a summer when I dated a girl who owned horses have had nothing to do with them and no particular interest in them, but Francis makes the smallest details of racing fascinating and draws me inexorably into that world. The campanology of Dorothy Sayers's The Nine Tailors, the Egyptology of Peters's Amelia Peabody books, have both given me great enjoyment learning about things I didn't realize I could be much interested in. But frankly I don't find anything of this sort with Adams and her moths. After several chapters of them I never want to hear another word about moths (but I know I will).

I frankly don't care whether Ginny pushed Vivi off the bell tower or not. Push, no push, who cares? Not I.

If this were a book I had gotten out of the library, it would go back unfinished. Because I so greatly enjoy the discussions here and enjoy being a part of them I will stick with the book. Even a not very good book can be the basis of a very good discussion.

But unless things get a lot better very soon, this is not a book I will recommend to any friend whose good opinion I value.

Enough of this rant. Back to the discussion, with thanks to everyone here for making that discussion so interesting and enjoyable.

---

[lcnh1]

I too have to agree with the last few chapters.  There was way too much discussion of moths and not enough about the relationship between Ginny and Vivi and how they got to where we are now.  I had a hard time with these chapters because they were almost too intellectual for my tastes. 

---

COCOSPALS wrote:

I have to agree with you Everyman.  I found the extensive examination of the moths to be boring...and what was the point of carrying on so long about it. I find it hard to believe that this will come into play further on down the line. I am having a really hard time staying with the book. With the House at Riverton, I could find points that were worth posting about, sometimes a setting, sometimes a charactor point, but with the discussion for this book, I find myself expressing my opinion in response to the questions posted but that is about it.

In response to the questions on this chapter, I don't think Maud in drinking to get into Clive and Ginny's little group, I think she is drinking to response to it. She is left out, lonesome, bored silly, so as many do, she has turned to the bottle. It is an escape for her just as Clive and Ginny escape into "moth world".

---

Everyman wrote:
Well, I confess it.

I am finding the perpetual angst of this book and the way too many obvious attempts to create mystery to be too much for my tastes. The end of chapter 9, "I wasn't to find out for two more years, on the day Mother died, why he was so unusually interested in it" to be the last straw. I just had to sigh and say "oh, come on." If she was truly his assistant, why wouldn't he have told her? The only point of withholding that would seem to be for Adams to add yet another cliffhanger to a book that is so full of them that it's tiring.

And the moths. Yes, the discussion of free will was interesting as a philosophical discussion, but otherwise, how could moths be made any less interesting? I tend to enjoy books whose authors take me into unfamiliar realms of activity. Trollope and his fox-hunting; normally I have very little interest in fox hunting, but Trollope pulls me into it and arouses my interest. Dick Francis and racing: I have never been to a horse race, was not raised around horses, and but for a summer when I dated a girl who owned horses have had nothing to do with them and no particular interest in them, but Francis makes the smallest details of racing fascinating and draws me inexorably into that world. The campanology of Dorothy Sayers's The Nine Tailors, the Egyptology of Peters's Amelia Peabody books, have both given me great enjoyment learning about things I didn't realize I could be much interested in. But frankly I don't find anything of this sort with Adams and her moths. After several chapters of them I never want to hear another word about moths (but I know I will).

I frankly don't care whether Ginny pushed Vivi off the bell tower or not. Push, no push, who cares? Not I.

If this were a book I had gotten out of the library, it would go back unfinished. Because I so greatly enjoy the discussions here and enjoy being a part of them I will stick with the book. Even a not very good book can be the basis of a very good discussion.

But unless things get a lot better very soon, this is not a book I will recommend to any friend whose good opinion I value.

Enough of this rant. Back to the discussion, with thanks to everyone here for making that discussion so interesting and enjoyable.

---

---

[pheath]

---

Sisters3 wrote:

I, too, have to say that I am having a difficult time staying interested in this book. It just

doesn't seem to hold together very well from chapter to chapter and I am sorry to say that.

I feel like with the other two great choices of books, where was the great interest in this one drawn

from?

I will continue to read it as well. I am hoping that it will all make sense to why it was chosen,

in the end.

Again, I am sorry for this poor recommendation thus far...

---

I think this just goes to show how big a factor individual preferences are. The more I read this book; the more I got sucked into it. After I finished it, I told my wife that I was shocked that a book that is written on the foundation of the science of moths and a very dysfunctional family could make such a compelling read. Perhaps it comes from the fact that I rarely read fiction, and don't have a lot to compare this too since graduating from college. Oh well, I guess if I enjoyed it, I shouldn't question it.

Message Edited by pheath on 03-05-2008 02:33 PM

[dhaupt]

I have a sense that Maud is drunk, but I could go the other way. But I guess if she's not than how do you explain her actions.

Maybe Clive kept the secret from Ginny because he thought she might disagree with him, I'm not quite sure about that.

I am also wondering the significance of the little moth that Clive killed.
And I wonder of Vivi's constant changing of jobs weather it's really looking for more adventure as she described or if she simply can't hold down a job.

deb

[dhaupt]

Everyman, tell us how you really feel.
but let me ask you this in reference to not telling Ginny his "secret seminar". I do believe he didn't tell her. On the first page of chapter 8 Ginny was talking to us about the lecture that Clive was going to give and tell us that he's quite snobbish about being on par with the academics versus amateurs and I think he believes Ginny to be an amateur. I don't know you could be right just playing devil's advocate.
However I still am enjoying the book. Sorry you're not.

deb

[LisaMM]

---

dhaupt wrote:
Everyman, tell us how you really feel.
but let me ask you this in reference to not telling Ginny his "secret seminar". I do believe he didn't tell her. On the first page of chapter 8 Ginny was talking to us about the lecture that Clive was going to give and tell us that he's quite snobbish about being on par with the academics versus amateurs and I think he believes Ginny to be an amateur. I don't know you could be right just playing devil's advocate.
However I still am enjoying the book. Sorry you're not.

deb

---

Clive seemed to like getting the academics all riled up. Perhaps he just got a wild hair and decided to issue a "throwdown" at the spur of the moment.

[dhaupt]

---

LisaMM wrote:

---

dhaupt wrote:
Everyman, tell us how you really feel.
but let me ask you this in reference to not telling Ginny his "secret seminar". I do believe he didn't tell her. On the first page of chapter 8 Ginny was talking to us about the lecture that Clive was going to give and tell us that he's quite snobbish about being on par with the academics versus amateurs and I think he believes Ginny to be an amateur. I don't know you could be right just playing devil's advocate.
However I still am enjoying the book. Sorry you're not.

deb

---

Clive seemed to like getting the academics all riled up. Perhaps he just got a wild hair and decided to issue a "throwdown" at the spur of the moment.

---

Now that's entirely possible, didn't think of that. Good point Lisa

deb

[LizzieAnn]

Another chapter with a lot of moth-related references.  Too much science to keep a smooth flow.  It reminds me of A Perfect Storm. There was so much meteorological information, that I found myself skimming through it.  I'm taking care not to do that here.  I'm really hoping that there's a strong connection between the moths and these sisters.

In this chapter I feel even sorrier for Maud than I did in the chapters before.  Her desperation with the mail, looking for letters from Vivi.  It's like she needs to "talk" with someone.  As to the incident when Clive & Ginny come back, I look at it as an attempt to rekindle Clive's interest in her.  She cooks a special dinner with flowers on the table.  She gives Clive a gift that she knows he'll enjoy, and one that she's made some effort to get.  She's taken out and worn a dress & jewelery from her youth - presumably from better times with Clive.  Despite what Ginny says, I get the impression that the relationship between Maud & Clive isn't all that rosy & close.

I'm also curious as to what that whole incident with the tiny gray moth means.

Also, could Clive not have told Ginny because of jealousy?  He didn't want to share the limelight with anyone, even his own daughter.   Perhaps she's been "coming into her own."

Message Edited by LizzieAnn on 03-05-2008 04:20 PM

[AnnieS]

Everyman - ditto at the moment.  Enough moths already.  I would love to get Viv's point of view we got some, in the last chapter, but no foundation for the it.  It is starting to drag a bit. 

[kbbg42]

I doubt sincerly that Ginny is coming into her own, with her inability to express herself to even her own family how could she ever conduct her own lectures? How do we even know for certain that Clive didn't tell her what he was going to say at the lecture, maybe she was locked up in the mind room when he was going over this? As for Maude, I can only say if I was in her place in that house with them I would be drinking too only it wouldn't be sherry it would be somthing much much stronger!!!!

As for everymans comments, I can fully understand them, but I have read many novels that have sucked until about halfway through and then suddenly it's like WOW I'm glad I continued with it cause it was really worth it. I hope and pray that this is one of them. Otherwise I'll really be dissapointed especially as this is the first book club I have ever been involved in.

[no4daughter]

When I read this chapter, Ginny says on a number of occasions how their research enterprise was staturated with work and grants, that they published often, lectured extensively and the grants kept pouring in.  Ginny and Bulburrow sure have fallen since those days. 

I thought Maud's strange behavior with wearing provacative clothes, drinking and completly neglecting the house was due to a developing mental illness.  I know I would go nuts if I was her and living with Ginny, Clive and the moths!!! 

[MsMorninglight]

---

no4daughter wrote:

I thought Maud's strange behavior with wearing provacative clothes, drinking and completly neglecting the house was due to a developing mental illness.  I know I would go nuts if I was her and living with Ginny, Clive and the moths!!! 

---

LOL!  I agree with you no4daughter.  Poor Maud! Just chapter 9 alone was enough to bore me to distraction with moths!

I have felt all along that Maud was a bit of a drinker, I'm sure due to the fact that her husband has always been so overtaken by his obsession.  But I think now, it's probably even worse for her, because Vivian is gone & living her own life and Ginny, now seems to be more important to Clive as his partner, than Maud is as his wife.

She's still trying, though.  Giving him the new light & all.  Still trying to be some part of his life. 

I personally, continue to be intrigued by the book.  Though, I do struggle through the over abundance of information about the moths & the lectures, etc..perhaps Ms. Adams involvement as a documentary filmmaker leads her to believe these details are more important than we the readers do?  As a rule, I would skim over most of this, but I can't help but think the info may be  important down the line.  So, I'm hanging in there. (But I will most certainly moan and groan at the end if I find out it's all been just so much filler!)

[Peppermill]

---

Everyman wrote:
Well, I confess it.

I am finding the perpetual angst of this book and the way too many obvious attempts to create mystery to be too much for my tastes. The end of chapter 9, "I wasn't to find out for two more years, on the day Mother died, why he was so unusually interested in it" to be the last straw. I just had to sigh and say "oh, come on." If she was truly his assistant, why wouldn't he have told her? The only point of withholding that would seem to be for Adams to add yet another cliffhanger to a book that is so full of them that it's tiring.

And the moths. Yes, the discussion of free will was interesting as a philosophical discussion, but otherwise, how could moths be made any less interesting? I tend to enjoy books whose authors take me into unfamiliar realms of activity. Trollope and his fox-hunting; normally I have very little interest in fox hunting, but Trollope pulls me into it and arouses my interest. Dick Francis and racing: I have never been to a horse race, was not raised around horses, and but for a summer when I dated a girl who owned horses have had nothing to do with them and no particular interest in them, but Francis makes the smallest details of racing fascinating and draws me inexorably into that world. The campanology of Dorothy Sayers's The Nine Tailors, the Egyptology of Peters's Amelia Peabody books, have both given me great enjoyment learning about things I didn't realize I could be much interested in. But frankly I don't find anything of this sort with Adams and her moths. After several chapters of them I never want to hear another word about moths (but I know I will).

I frankly don't care whether Ginny pushed Vivi off the bell tower or not. Push, no push, who cares? Not I.

If this were a book I had gotten out of the library, it would go back unfinished. Because I so greatly enjoy the discussions here and enjoy being a part of them I will stick with the book. Even a not very good book can be the basis of a very good discussion.

But unless things get a lot better very soon, this is not a book I will recommend to any friend whose good opinion I value.

Enough of this rant. Back to the discussion, with thanks to everyone here for making that discussion so interesting and enjoyable.

---

Amen.

[noannie]

I confess that all the talk of moths bored me to tears. I have no interest in them at all, but I found the book pulled me in and I wanted to find out what was going on with the sisters. Who knows why Clive kept the classification system a secret from Ginny, maybe he wanted to surprise her, it was strange. As far as Maude goes I do think she has been tipping the bottle and is hiding it from the family.

noannie

[psujulie]

Once again we see the differences in the sisters. I thought it was interesting that Vivien who was in control of her life never seemed satisfied. On the other hand, Ginny just accepted that she would be working with her father.

I also find it interesting that Ginny doesn't seem to understand Clive even though she works closely with him. Maud thought that Clive really wanted a Robinson trap, but his pride stood in the way; while Ginny didn't believe her because Clive wasn't the conceited type. We find out later that he really enjoyed toying with the trap. Later in the chapter, we see that Clive surprises Ginny with his presentation at the conference. Even weirder is the way that he killed the moth at the end of the chapter (that really disturbed me!)

Going back to Chaper 7 I see the difference between the sisters in their memories of Clive too.  I wonder which one is correct in their perceptions of him, or are both partially right.

I'm really starting to wonder about Clive after this chapter.

[DSaff]

I felt very sad for Maud in this chapter. She seems so very lonely, so desperate for Clive's attention. I think she tried to make something nice for him, but watched her "gift" possess him. She was clearly drunk, probably trying to escape the pain in her life.