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grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13: Mummy and Daddy!



pigwidgeon wrote:
I find it strange that, after all the discussion of the girls calling their parents by their first names, no one has yet mentioned that, on page 111, Ginny calls them Mummy and Daddy. At first I thought that the traumatic nature of finding Maud holed up, and intoxicated, in the library sparked a little regressive behavior, but then I remembered that she calls them by their first names from the earliest memories. What do you all make of this?

Thank you. I don't know how I missed the names Mummy and Daddy after hearing the mother and father addressed as Clive and Maud for so long. This seems like a pretty big change in attitude for a moment.


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grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13: Maud



pigwidgeon wrote:


I also found it a sad piece of irony that Maud reads "The Ideal Home" magazine (110). I'm sure nothing in that publication can even come close to repairing the damage done in this "home". When Ginny says "A sick thrust of guilt and love and shame and overbearing failure churned through me"(111) I felt so bad. I am always saddened when children, even adult children, feel as though their parents happiness or well-being is somehow their responsibility. This is one of those things, Ginny previously spoke of, that a person learns, sometimes through only action and insinuation, when they are young, and never leaves you. That is too much responsibility for a small child, and it only grows as the child grows. Ginny feels she has to keep Maud's secret, because it was her fault to begin with, what a burden. :smileysad:

I also stopped when I read about Maud reading "The Ideal Home" magazine. While skimming through the magazine, I imagine Maud felt a lot of self pity wondering where her dreams of the perfect life and home had gone wrong. Women have this idealized feeling from day one as little girls that they will have happy children, "ideal homes," and perfect, loving husbands and fathers all because of the way they will treat their responsibility. Women seem to carry the weight of the world on their shoulder: keep children safe from accidents, make sure hubby is doing what he loves and never take time for self or you are being selfish. Is this the age old philosophy which made Maud turn to alcohol?



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grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13 - Humor



ELee wrote:
OK.  Maybe my senses are warped, but I'm finding humor here, albeit dry.  Chapter 10, page 109, as I read Ginny's description of processing the Brimstone females
 
"Back inside, I squeezed their bottoms one by one"
 
Rewind to Chapter 8, page 91
 
"...he [Bernard] ran his hand...over my bottom which he grabbed lightly and shook a little."
 
This caused some serious chuckles.


Great! I did find humor too. This is the quote.
 
"Is she really going to end the conversation right there, like that? She can't do that. You can't start a revolution and then go home for tea."
 
I just loved that line.

 
 

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niknak13
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13: Mummy and Daddy!

I also let this slip by.  I'm curious to hear other opinions on the use of Mummy and Daddy.
I'll have to go back through the chapters and look, but I believe that Vivi also always refers to their parents by their first names.  Was this common and the time and place?  Is it just an oddity for this family to do such a thing?  Does it show us a lack of closeness?  (Maybe this was addressed in another thread - if so, I apologize and please direct me to it)

grapes wrote:


pigwidgeon wrote:
I find it strange that, after all the discussion of the girls calling their parents by their first names, no one has yet mentioned that, on page 111, Ginny calls them Mummy and Daddy. At first I thought that the traumatic nature of finding Maud holed up, and intoxicated, in the library sparked a little regressive behavior, but then I remembered that she calls them by their first names from the earliest memories. What do you all make of this?

Thank you. I don't know how I missed the names Mummy and Daddy after hearing the mother and father addressed as Clive and Maud for so long. This seems like a pretty big change in attitude for a moment.





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bentley
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13

Chapter 10:

The scenes are getting more and more disturbing. What kind of war is being described? Does this extermination lend itself to real family members or a family secret of some sort. Bernard's challenge is very personal to the eccentric Clive. Maud is completely forgotten as if she in fact did not exist. Ginny tried to give Maud love and the treatment that she received was frightening. Poor Ginny already had no sense of self so this descent was just another situation to hide or hide from. I think Ginny wanted to feel the closeness that Vivian naturally had with her mother and which Ginny never did. It was the sickness that seemed to bring them together and that in of itself is foreboding. To me, it was almost like Ginny was contributing to this lack of awareness on the part of Maud because of her own weaknesses and lack of self identity.
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bentley
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13

Chapter 11:

Things are not as estranged then; that is for sure. It seems to me that Ginny was chosen to be the keeper of the house; the person who never got away. Right now; it does not appear that Ginny has any set of emotions. I have no idea how deep is the relationship between Vivian and Arthur. To me it seems one sided. I am confused as to who is the cannibal and who it the parasite.
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Everyman
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13



fordmg wrote:


runnybabbit620 wrote:
I thought Ginny's decision to take care of her drunken mother a wrong decison. Do they have AA in the UK? I think that Ginny's enabling the addiction made things worse and, obviously, lead to Maud's death.



If they have AA now, I'm sure they didn't have it back when Maud was aflicted.
MG



They might well have. The AA concepts were developed in the 1930s, and the movement was becoming well developed by WWII, and according to one source came to England in 1947, and The first English A.A. Convention was held in Cheltenham, England in 1956. Since we're into the 1960s, at least, by the time this was written, and perhaps much later -- we aren't told, but Ginny, born in 1937 or so was clearly an adult at the time -- AA should have been fairly well known in England, particularly among the educated and scientific community.
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bentley
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13

Chapter 12: I Spy

-yikes! Ginny talks about her surveillance of Ginny throughout the house like it's a mousetrap (or a moth trap?...)! She also equates herself with Vera, in being part of the house.

-Ginny and Vivi finally discuss Maud's death and it comes as no surprise that Vivi seems to question Ginny's account. Is Vivi's skepticism really because she doesn't know about Maud's drinking and therefore doesn't grasp the likelihood of her falling down the stairs?

Ginny decides that it is "wouldn’t be fair to destroy her perceptions of the past" (p. 131) and I believe this sentiment will become central, regardless of which sister is deluded about what. As Vivi says, it comes down to "who is able to see things as they really are..." (p. 130). Is it right to hide the truth? Does it depend on one's assessment of whether the person is able to handle being disabused of their delusion?

Specifically, do we feel differently if it ends up being Vivi who has been deluded about her family, rather than Ginny being deluded about her family and herself?


There are a lot of clues as to Ginny's unstableness in this chapter. I think it is fair to say that somebody did Maud in; even though we the readers do not know who that might be. I think that Vivian suspects Ginny; and the reason might be that she feels that Ginny pushed her. I guess we will have to keep reading to find out what each sister reveals to us.
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pheath
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13



bentley wrote:
Chapter 12: I Spy

-yikes! Ginny talks about her surveillance of Ginny throughout the house like it's a mousetrap (or a moth trap?...)! She also equates herself with Vera, in being part of the house.

-Ginny and Vivi finally discuss Maud's death and it comes as no surprise that Vivi seems to question Ginny's account. Is Vivi's skepticism really because she doesn't know about Maud's drinking and therefore doesn't grasp the likelihood of her falling down the stairs?

Ginny decides that it is "wouldn’t be fair to destroy her perceptions of the past" (p. 131) and I believe this sentiment will become central, regardless of which sister is deluded about what. As Vivi says, it comes down to "who is able to see things as they really are..." (p. 130). Is it right to hide the truth? Does it depend on one's assessment of whether the person is able to handle being disabused of their delusion?

Specifically, do we feel differently if it ends up being Vivi who has been deluded about her family, rather than Ginny being deluded about her family and herself?


There are a lot of clues as to Ginny's unstableness in this chapter. I think it is fair to say that somebody did Maud in; even though we the readers do not know who that might be. I think that Vivian suspects Ginny; and the reason might be that she feels that Ginny pushed her. I guess we will have to keep reading to find out what each sister reveals to us.




This just popped into my head while reading your post. Could it be that Vivi suspects Ginny of being the one to push Maud because Ginny actually did push Vivi when they were on the bell tower? I'm not convinced of this, but it would point Vivi in that direction first.
-Philip
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bentley
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Re: Chapter 13

Chapter 13: The Ridge Walk

-how does Clive not know about Maud???

-please discuss this statement by Ginny (it caps off the entire Fox Moth passage on pages 134-135, which I found fascinating!): "If you were born unaware, at least you'd be blissfully ignorant. It's not as if you're going to wake up one day and suddenly discover yourself."

-is Vivi's request a selfish one? I think it depends on what she knows about Ginny. Maybe we have magnified Ginny's oddness and how obvious it is to the world. One thing that is clear to me from this chapter is that Ginny thrives on the suffering of those around her. Feel free to disagree with this, but she feels "invigorated, revitalised and valuable" in the face of her sister's suffering! I know she's specifically talking about the expulsion when she uses those words, but she recalls it now.


Vivian's request to her sister is not a selfish one. Family members do help each other all the time with artificial insemination, etc. However, one thing is true; Ginny feels the most alive when everyone else is losing their grip. She then feels like she is the center of attention and valuable.

What is the absence thing that Vivian is referring to. Does Ginny just disappear into herself and is not aware. And what did Vivian mean when she said that Ginny was playing statues again.

I wonder if Ginny is unaware of her problems and the source of these odd behaviors,
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Re: Chapter 13



bentley wrote:
Chapter 13: The Ridge Walk

-how does Clive not know about Maud???

-please discuss this statement by Ginny (it caps off the entire Fox Moth passage on pages 134-135, which I found fascinating!): "If you were born unaware, at least you'd be blissfully ignorant. It's not as if you're going to wake up one day and suddenly discover yourself."

-is Vivi's request a selfish one? I think it depends on what she knows about Ginny. Maybe we have magnified Ginny's oddness and how obvious it is to the world. One thing that is clear to me from this chapter is that Ginny thrives on the suffering of those around her. Feel free to disagree with this, but she feels "invigorated, revitalised and valuable" in the face of her sister's suffering! I know she's specifically talking about the expulsion when she uses those words, but she recalls it now.


Vivian's request to her sister is not a selfish one. Family members do help each other all the time with artificial insemination, etc. However, one thing is true; Ginny feels the most alive when everyone else is losing their grip. She then feels like she is the center of attention and valuable.

What is the absence thing that Vivian is referring to. Does Ginny just disappear into herself and is not aware. And what did Vivian mean when she said that Ginny was playing statues again.

I wonder if Ginny is unaware of her problems and the source of these odd behaviors,




I'm guessing that Ginny is using the "retreat" technique that Maud taught her even at this late time in her life.
-Philip
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bentley
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13



pheath wrote:


bentley wrote:
Chapter 12: I Spy

-yikes! Ginny talks about her surveillance of Ginny throughout the house like it's a mousetrap (or a moth trap?...)! She also equates herself with Vera, in being part of the house.

-Ginny and Vivi finally discuss Maud's death and it comes as no surprise that Vivi seems to question Ginny's account. Is Vivi's skepticism really because she doesn't know about Maud's drinking and therefore doesn't grasp the likelihood of her falling down the stairs?

Ginny decides that it is "wouldn’t be fair to destroy her perceptions of the past" (p. 131) and I believe this sentiment will become central, regardless of which sister is deluded about what. As Vivi says, it comes down to "who is able to see things as they really are..." (p. 130). Is it right to hide the truth? Does it depend on one's assessment of whether the person is able to handle being disabused of their delusion?

Specifically, do we feel differently if it ends up being Vivi who has been deluded about her family, rather than Ginny being deluded about her family and herself?


There are a lot of clues as to Ginny's unstableness in this chapter. I think it is fair to say that somebody did Maud in; even though we the readers do not know who that might be. I think that Vivian suspects Ginny; and the reason might be that she feels that Ginny pushed her. I guess we will have to keep reading to find out what each sister reveals to us.




This just popped into my head while reading your post. Could it be that Vivi suspects Ginny of being the one to push Maud because Ginny actually did push Vivi when they were on the bell tower? I'm not convinced of this, but it would point Vivi in that direction first.




That is what I felt as well. It is hard to trust Ginny because by now I do not consider her narration that reliable. But it is safe to say there is a hint that Vivian might feel that Ginny was responsible for both accidents. I am not convinced of this either; I am not certain who pushed Maud (Clive or Ginny)..but I suspect it was one of them. As far as Vivian we will have to read on; but her reaction would explain a lot if that were the case.
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bentley
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Re: Chapter 13


pheath wrote:


bentley wrote:
Chapter 13: The Ridge Walk

-how does Clive not know about Maud???

-please discuss this statement by Ginny (it caps off the entire Fox Moth passage on pages 134-135, which I found fascinating!): "If you were born unaware, at least you'd be blissfully ignorant. It's not as if you're going to wake up one day and suddenly discover yourself."

-is Vivi's request a selfish one? I think it depends on what she knows about Ginny. Maybe we have magnified Ginny's oddness and how obvious it is to the world. One thing that is clear to me from this chapter is that Ginny thrives on the suffering of those around her. Feel free to disagree with this, but she feels "invigorated, revitalised and valuable" in the face of her sister's suffering! I know she's specifically talking about the expulsion when she uses those words, but she recalls it now.


Vivian's request to her sister is not a selfish one. Family members do help each other all the time with artificial insemination, etc. However, one thing is true; Ginny feels the most alive when everyone else is losing their grip. She then feels like she is the center of attention and valuable.

What is the absence thing that Vivian is referring to. Does Ginny just disappear into herself and is not aware. And what did Vivian mean when she said that Ginny was playing statues again.

I wonder if Ginny is unaware of her problems and the source of these odd behaviors,




I'm guessing that Ginny is using the "retreat" technique that Maud taught her even at this late time in her life.




Very interesting; I had not gone back and made that connection as yet.
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13 - CONTAINS SPOILER, INCIDENT FROM CHAPTER 14



Everyman wrote:


kiakar wrote:
It seems Vivi has always depended on Ginny for her livihood. Of course when she goes away, wonder who took care of her then.

I seem to recall that during her study course, Clive had agreed to support her. After that, she worked for herself, and then of course she married Arthur.

Didn't I read somewhere, that he later divorced her?Maybe I am thinking of another book.
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13 - CONTAINS SPOILER, INCIDENT FROM CHAPTER 14



kiakar wrote:


Everyman wrote:


kiakar wrote:
It seems Vivi has always depended on Ginny for her livihood. Of course when she goes away, wonder who took care of her then.

I seem to recall that during her study course, Clive had agreed to support her. After that, she worked for herself, and then of course she married Arthur.

Didn't I read somewhere, that he later divorced her?Maybe I am thinking of another book.



It doesn't specifically say he divorced her, but it does says he was remarried when Ginny met him I think five years later, so presumably they did get divorced.

On what grounds, I wonder. I don't think England had no-fault divorce back then, so there had to be a legal cause for them to get the divorce. Something hidden in Vivi's background which will probably stay hidden. I do wonder a bit why Adams had them get divorced.
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bookhunter
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13 - CONTAINS SPOILER, INCIDENT FROM CHAPTER 14



Everyman wrote:
(snipped) ...On what grounds, I wonder. I don't think England had no-fault divorce back then, so there had to be a legal cause for them to get the divorce. Something hidden in Vivi's background which will probably stay hidden. I do wonder a bit why Adams had them get divorced.


I think the divorce was neccesary to show that Vivi and Arthur really didn't belong together.  Arthur was interested in a family and Vivi didn't really understand what that meant (what a shocker, considering the model she had!)  The disagreement over how to connect to Samuel and his death was a fundamental difference in their outlook. I like Arthur's statements that you can't "choose" what children you have.  He wanted to see Samuel as their child and grieve, while Vivi wanted to move past that and try again. 
 
Arthur wanted children.  What Vivi didn't understand was that Samuel WAS the fulfillment of Arthur's desire.  His death needed to be recognized and mourned as part of the family.  Vivi saw it as a failed experiment.  (more like Clive than she would be willing to admit!)
 
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grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13



krb2g wrote:
Vivi's depression at the thought of a childless marriage puts me in mind of a line of T.S. Eliot's poem, The Waste Land:

What you get married for if you don't want children?

--II: A Game of Chess, line 164


Thank you for the words from The Waste Land by T.S. Eliot. I have never read the whole poem. You have inspired me. Anyway, those words definitely fit Vivi's fears about not being able to have a child when she gets married. I wonder if she loves Arthur or is she marrying just to have children.
 
I will not write the quote here. At the end of the chapter were you shocked by what Vivi asks of Ginny? It really shocked me.


 





 



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grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13



SleightGirl wrote:


psujulie wrote:
Does anyone think that Ginny's blanking our episodes might be why she is so obsessed with time? On page 4, she says "Every mintute lost -- if left uncorrected -- would soon accumulate to an hour, and then hours, until -- as you can imagine -- you could easily end up living in a completely erroneous time frame.
 

I have tried to think what type of mental illness would make a person blank out for a few minutes.  I don't know of any specific illness. I have heard that blanking out or making oneself absent is a method of defense, a way of protecting oneself. I feel that Ginny does feel threatened by Vivi's presence in the house. Did Ginny begin doing this, I wonder, after the Bell Tower accident? Did it happen after Maud's alcoholism?


OMG that makes perfect sense.  The time thing has been bugging me for awhile, but I never put two and two together. 



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grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13



SleightGirl wrote:


psujulie wrote:
Does anyone think that Ginny's blanking our episodes might be why she is so obsessed with time? On page 4, she says "Every mintute lost -- if left uncorrected -- would soon accumulate to an hour, and then hours, until -- as you can imagine -- you could easily end up living in a completely erroneous time frame.
 

I definitely think you are on to something. Makes sense to me.

 

OMG that makes perfect sense.  The time thing has been bugging me for awhile, but I never put two and two together. 



Grapes
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Re: Chapters 10 through 13 - CONTAINS SPOILER, INCIDENT FROM CHAPTER 14





Didn't I read somewhere, that he later divorced her?Maybe I am thinking of another book.



It doesn't specifically say he divorced her, but it does says he was remarried when Ginny met him I think five years later, so presumably they did get divorced.

On what grounds, I wonder. I don't think England had no-fault divorce back then, so there had to be a legal cause for them to get the divorce. Something hidden in Vivi's background which will probably stay hidden. I do wonder a bit why Adams had them get divorced.

Yes, sounds interesting to me too. Hope the Author at least has a clue if its not in the story somewhere. With knowing Vivi, could have been another man.
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