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reddoglady
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

my husband and I take a yearly trip to St. Marteen and there is a butterfly farm there -- we visited a few years ago and were truly fascinated  by the many different species of butterflies and the many facts that we learned about them -- it was a beautiful, calm place and it seemed magical with all the butterflies flying around -- we visit during Thanksgiving time and there is usually an abundance of butterflies all over the island -- they remind me of small fairies --
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Peppermill
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!


bookhunter wrote {ed.}: ONE more thing...

Isn't it interesting that you associate moths with darker images and butterflies represent more positive images? Even in the research links you posted, moths sometimes symbolize death, or precede death, while butterflies represent change and rebirth.

Moths are usually out only at night, while butterflies are out by day.

Hmmmm...I guess Ms. Adams was intentional on using moths and NOT butterflies!

Ann, bookhunter

Ann -- Oh, yes, I definitely presumed Poppy Adams was intentional about moths rather than butterflies for this tale! That is part of why I feel strongly that if it is butterflies on the present cover, that aspect of the design ought to be changed. But that surprises me and they do resemble the Five Spot anomaly that interested Clive. I'm just not interested enough to figure out for sure, but I don't think the publisher should be that disinterested.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Peppermill
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!



bookhunter wrote {ed}: Pepper, I have been to the Butterfly house at Callaway Gardens and one that is part of the Tennessee Auarium in Chattanoonga.....Ann, bookhunter
I envy you. Callaway Gardens was one of the trips that I had a chance to take with my husband but didn't for some now long forgotten reason (probably my own work demands). Perhaps one day I shall have a chance to see it myself.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Peppermill
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!


bookhunter wrote:
Peppermill, you titled your post "The Butterfly Effect" which refers to the concept that a small movement--like a butterfly's wing--can have an increasing effects as they spread throughout the environment. A flap of a butterfly's wing can cause (or prevent) a hurricane.

That is interesting to think about in terms of this novel!

Ann, bookhunter
Ann -- the application of the butterfly wing analogy is actually even somewhat more general in chaos theory. (See James Gleick's Chaos: Making a New Science if interested.) Basically, the idea is that a small third or fourth or higher order effect can grow to have major consequences if somehow multiplied or magnified. (E.g., the satire in the commercial with the butterfly setting off the car alarm that eventually leads to the destruction of the man's roof.)

The beautiful Mandelbrot sequences are lovely mathematical realizations of the concept. It seems to me that a number of literary authors now play with the idea, just as Lawrence Durrell (The Alexandria Quartet) and others did and still do with the fourth dimension of time. (Some would perhaps argue that was what Kate Morton was exploring the Butterfly Effect in The House at Riverton -- I happen to disagree.)
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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bookhunter
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!

Peppermill said (re: Butterfly Effect):
 
"...Basically, the idea is that a small third or fourth or higher order effect can grow to have major consequences if somehow multiplied or magnified. (E.g., the satire in the commercial with the butterfly setting off the car alarm that eventually leads to the destruction of the man's roof.)...The beautiful Mandelbrot sequences are lovely mathematical realizations of the concept."
 
OK Peppermill, you have lost me! :smileyhappy:  "Beautiful" and "lovely" are not words I remember using during math classes!
 
But not to be daunted, I looked up Mandelbrot sequences and found this in wikipedia :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set 
 
When you scroll through the article, there are images of the sequences illustrated.  And don't they look like spots on a moth's wing!
 
Ann, bookhunter (learning something new everyday)
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Laurel
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Registered: ‎10-29-2006
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Brimstone caterpillar--Chapter 11: Arthur and the Cannibals

Here is a good painting of the Brimstone caterpillar, which is so well designed to mimic a twig. It is number one (top left) on the ninth plate down on the left.
"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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jclay26
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

These pictures are stunning. Thank you for sharing! It is good to be able to visualize some of the caterpillars and moths the author discusses in the book.
What you have to do...is trust your own story. Get the hell out of the way and let it tell itself. - Tim O'Brien; The Things They Carried
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Aunt_Beth_64
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!



bookhunter wrote:
Has anyone ever been to a butterfly house at a garden or zoo?
Why is it that there is something magical about having a butterfly or moth land on you?
I would love to know what moths/butterflies represent in mythology and literature. The obvious is metamorphosis..complete change from one thing to another. What else?
Is there a tie-in to this novel?
Ann, bookhunter





I mentioned this on another thread, but it seems more appropriate to post it here....

There is a fantastic new butterfly exhibit at the Smithsonian Natural History Museum. If you are in the DC area it is well worth a visit.

Here is a link to more information.

http://www.butterflies.si.edu/
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Aunt_Beth_64
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!



bookhunter wrote:
Peppermill, you titled your post "The Butterfly Effect" which refers to the concept that a small movement--like a butterfly's wing--can have an increasing effects as they spread throughout the environment. A flap of a butterfly's wing can cause (or prevent) a hurricane.
That is interesting to think about in terms of this novel!
Ann, bookhunter





"The Butterfly Effect" sounds familiar--wasn't it a movie? I'm not sure about that, but I did see an intriguing thriller titled, "The Mothman Prophecies." In it Richard Gere plays a reporter plunged into a world of chaos when fate draws him to a sleepy West Virginia town whose residents are being visited by a great moth like creature. I recall that it is a good movie.
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grapes
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!



Maria_H wrote:
OK, so there aren't any cocoons, but below are several beautiful and detailed photos of caterpillars and moths supplied by Knopf.



Thank you for the photographs. Since this kind of animal life plays such a big part in the book, I am glad to get a chance to look closer at caterpillars, etc.


Grapes
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Peppermill
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!

Ann -- if you enjoyed the Mandelbrot sequences, go to Google, select images, and search for fractals. Have fun!

If I get a chance next week, I'll look a little harder for a sequence that shows how an effect can repeat for long periods and then "blossom" -- an example of the so-called butterfly effect. Also, I haven't searched for butterflies or moths within fractals to see if anyone has provided examples as they have for so many other structures in nature.

bookhunter wrote {ed.}:

"Beautiful" and "lovely" are not words I remember using during math classes!

But not to be daunted, I looked up Mandelbrot sequences and found this in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set

When you scroll through the article, there are images of the sequences illustrated. And don't they look like spots on a moth's wing!

Ann, bookhunter
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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bookhunter
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!

Aunt Beth wrote:

"The Butterfly Effect" sounds familiar--wasn't it a movie? I'm not sure about that, but I did see an intriguing thriller titled, "The Mothman Prophecies." In it Richard Gere plays a reporter plunged into a world of chaos when fate draws him to a sleepy West Virginia town whose residents are being visited by a great moth like creature. I recall that it is a good movie.
 
There was a movie by that name in 2004 starring Ashton Kutcher.  You can look it up on IMDB.com.  The tagline says "Change one thing, change everything."  that could fit the events in this story--Vivi falling off the tower changed everything?
 
Ann, bookhunter
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bookhunter
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Re: The Butterfly Effect!

Peppermill wrote:
 
Ann -- if you enjoyed the Mandelbrot sequences, go to Google, select images, and search for fractals. Have fun!

If I get a chance next week, I'll look a little harder for a sequence that shows how an effect can repeat for long periods and then "blossom" -- an example of the so-called butterfly effect. Also, I haven't searched for butterflies or moths within fractals to see if anyone has provided examples as they have for so many other structures in nature.
I have a book (that I have not read!) titled something like Sacred Geometry.  It is about patterns that repeat themselves throughout nature--especially unrelated areas.  Artistic designs that are considered pleasing are actually in some cases unknowingly mimicing visual structure at the molecular level.  The example I remember is of a rosetta window in a Middle Ages church shown side by side with the molecular structure of something--maybe a flower?  They were the same design.
 
It is interesting that in The Sister the scientists have analyzed literally TO DEATH the moths without any recognition of the beauty and mystery they also represent.  Clive and Ginny looked disdainfully at their anscestors and collegues who were "collectors" and only interested in the rare and beautiful specimens while they were interested in the chemical compound of pupal soup.
 
Ann, bookhunter
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corym
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

These pictures bring perfect clarity to what the author is trying to convey in her chapters. 
 
Thank you for the pictures!
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MSaff
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

Great pictures. Thanks for posting them.
 
Mike
Mike
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
http://travelswithcarsandbooks.blogspot.com/
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mmaroni
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

The pictures are great! I can only imagine how musty the house must smell with years and years of those sitting around.  I am reading the book with a feeling of "musty"
Meg
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thewanderingjew
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Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

i always associated moths with destruction and butterflies with beauty. after reading this poem, i now also associate them with sadness.
 

I Never Saw Another Butterfly, a play written by Celeste Raspanti, is the story of one of the 15,000 children who passed through Terezin, a military garrison set up as a ghetto during World War II, a stopping-off place on the way to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. This sensitive and life-affirming play is based on collected poems and drawings by those children, which were recovered and published in a book by the same name. The title poem is:


I never saw another butterfly . . .
The last, the very last,
so richly, brightly, dazzling yellow.
Perhaps if the sun's tears sing
against a white stone . . .
Such, such a yellow
Is carried lightly `way up high.
It went away I'm sure because it
wished to kiss the world goodbye.
For seven weeks I've lived in here,
Penned up inside this ghetto,
but I have found my people here.
The dandelions call to me,
And the white chestnut candles in the court.
Only I never saw another butterfly.
That butterfly was the last one.
Butterflies don't live here in the ghetto.

-- Pavel Friedman, June 1942

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windwish
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

Thanks for the pictures. I catch myself really taking the time to look at moths and cocoons now!
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carriele
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!



thewanderingjew wrote:
i always associated moths with destruction and butterflies with beauty. after reading this poem, i now also associate them with sadness.
 

I Never Saw Another Butterfly, a play written by Celeste Raspanti, is the story of one of the 15,000 children who passed through Terezin, a military garrison set up as a ghetto during World War II, a stopping-off place on the way to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. This sensitive and life-affirming play is based on collected poems and drawings by those children, which were recovered and published in a book by the same name. The title poem is:


I never saw another butterfly . . .
The last, the very last,
so richly, brightly, dazzling yellow.
Perhaps if the sun's tears sing
against a white stone . . .
Such, such a yellow
Is carried lightly `way up high.
It went away I'm sure because it
wished to kiss the world goodbye.
For seven weeks I've lived in here,
Penned up inside this ghetto,
but I have found my people here.
The dandelions call to me,
And the white chestnut candles in the court.
Only I never saw another butterfly.
That butterfly was the last one.
Butterflies don't live here in the ghetto.

-- Pavel Friedman, June 1942



Thanks for adding this post.  What a heartbreaking poem.  It causes pause, I think, for one to take a moment to observe and appreciate what's around, rather than taking things for granted. 
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LeisaPS
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Re: Cocoons, Caterpillars, and Moths -- oh my!

I guess it's better than a book about spiders and dissecting them and analysing their ooziness!  That would certainly give ME the creeps!
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