Monday: Chapters 20 through 22 [ Edited ]

[grapes]

I finished the book yesterday too. Vivi became like a thinking monster. I do think people who choose to kill other people have all their senses working on high alert. If they weren't good thinkers before, they now become very precise, thoughtful and aware of their surroundings. It's very frightening. All the time I kept hoping Ginny had not murdered Vivi. I hoped Ginny's mind would lose track of things at some point, like lose track of the time when Vivi would go to get her milk.

[edited by moderator]

 I do believe Eileen deserves some credit for calling out the forces. If she had not wondered why Ginny didn't show up for tea, how long would Ginny have stayed in that house with a dead body???

Message Edited by KxBurns on 03-17-2008 11:48 AM

[BookSavage]

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Lildove3 wrote:

It sounds awful, but I am glad Ginny did Vivi in...she was mean throughout Ginny's life...I feel Vivi was

in her way jealous of Ginny.  Vivi always seemed that she had to be treated like a princess, even as an

older woman she still expected this sort of treatment... so therefore Ginny had enough and she wanted

her world back again...so she did exactly what she felt she needed to do and that was to murder her

ungreatful sister. This book was like a rollar coaster, very confussing.

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I am glad I was not the only one that was not bothered by Ginny killing Vivi.  For me it was quite simple. Ginny had a very simple view of life, and love and family was at the center of that.  Vivi never respected the family and she did not show Ginny the love that Ginny showed everyone else.  That was enough for her to feel that Vivi was an infection that she must kill off.

[nfam]

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Tarri wrote:

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nfam wrote:
(snip)
I did have a problem with Eileen getting the police. It had the flavor of a deus ex machina. We wondered what Eileen's role was and apparently it was to summon the police at the end of the story. This highlights my problems with the lack of plot and characterization in this novel. We have no idea what Eileen means in the book until a miracle occurs and she is the one to summon the police. I wish the author had given us more insight into her characters. It would have been a better read.

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I don't have a problem with Eileen calling the police. When Vivi did not show up or call, Eileen got nervous, especially after having met Ginny and listening to Vivi talking about her.

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My point is that while some people might call the police at any available opportunity it's not that usual. More people would be tempted to find out for themselves, or ask a friend or relative to investigate, particularly when the incident is as simple as missing a date for tea. In order for the majority of readers to feel as you do, it seems to me that the author has to give us a hint that Eileen has a propensity to call the police whenever she's upset.

One of the limitations of the first person narrative is that we see everything through the eyes of the main character, in this case a very unreliable witness. However, it's easy to drop a hint in conversation -- Vivi could say in passing that Eileen is so nervous that she called the police yesterday because she heard a noise in the attic. That's not a wonderful idea, but you get the picture.

My problem with the ending of this book is that we have too many things tying it up in a bow without prior hints and too many loose ends.

[thewanderingjew]

at the end of the book, i  found myself grateful that there was no child to carry on the legacy of the mental illness that infected that family. ginny was a diabolical cold blooded killer. isn't there a theory about people who love to kill insects at an early age indicating they often become serial killers?

[Everyman]

bookhunter wrote: I really want to understand WHY Ginny kills Vivi. Ginny has her own "Ginny logic" about everything, so I think she must have a "reason" for killing Vivi.

[edited for spoiler by the moderator]

Message Edited by KxBurns on 03-17-2008 12:10 PM

[fordmg]

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Jeanie0522 wrote:

I'm sorry to say that the ending did not satisfy any of the questions that started from the beginning of the novel. 

-Why was Vivi back after all of these years???

-What exactly was wrong with Ginny?

-Was Ginny really a researcher?  Or did she imagine she was?  Everything in the lab seemed very old.

-What was the relationship with Michael?  He was brought in, but never developed.

I think there was a very good story line here, but it just could not bring it home.  I would rate this novel a 3 on the barnes and noble scale.  I liked it, but there was so much more that could have been done.  Poppy Adams is a wonderful writer, in my opinion, she needs a better editor and publisher. 

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I am very disappointed in the book.  It is dificult to follow any stor line.  Who wants something and who gets something.  It has a surprise ending .... but the middle doesn't say anything.

MG

[bentley]

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KxBurns wrote:

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paula_02912 wrote:

bentley wrote: "A definite possibility! I think she's emerged as the cannibal caterpillar..."

bentley, this is a nice observation...I would agree with you here...she has cannibalized everything...everyone who she was involved with has now been "eaten" by her in some senses...anything that affected her resulted in something happening to the perpetrators of ill-will or those in the periphery, now she is truly alone...the only person who really escapes is Michael...I wonder what his real purpose was in the entire story? Was he the "scientist" in this little experiment, who didn't find the cannibal catepillar before it was too late? He did try to get her out of this house at one point...I know it was so that he could move in, but what was his purpose? Does anyone have any idea? Oh he was her drug dealer too right? lol

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Actually, that was me

And we'll definitely have more discussion of the whole cannibal caterpillar metaphor in the next chapters, as I think it's a topic that informs the whole book (not a spoiler! I just mean b/c the next chapters are our last).

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Karen, I had also made that observation as did many other folks. Great minds think alike.

[KxBurns]

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bentley wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:

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paula_02912 wrote:

bentley wrote: "A definite possibility! I think she's emerged as the cannibal caterpillar..."

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Actually, that was me

And we'll definitely have more discussion of the whole cannibal caterpillar metaphor in the next chapters, as I think it's a topic that informs the whole book (not a spoiler! I just mean b/c the next chapters are our last).

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Karen, I had also made that observation as did many other folks. Great minds think alike.

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Clearly. But  I was referring to the exact quotation.

[bentley]

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KxBurns wrote:

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bentley wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:

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paula_02912 wrote:

bentley wrote: "A definite possibility! I think she's emerged as the cannibal caterpillar..."

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Actually, that was me

And we'll definitely have more discussion of the whole cannibal caterpillar metaphor in the next chapters, as I think it's a topic that informs the whole book (not a spoiler! I just mean b/c the next chapters are our last).

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Karen, I had also made that observation as did many other folks. Great minds think alike.

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Clearly. But  I was referring to the exact quotation.

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Let us not get so caught up in it (LOL)...but clearly the poster was also correct. But I think many cited the exact quotation..some the entire quote, some paraphrased it and others alluded to the reference. The quote was not rocket science; and the reference was obvious. I do have to smile about this though. If you would like to take credit for it; it is OK..please be my guest. I do think it is odd your correcting the poster though, a little bit of ego.

[jodell7]

I absolutely believe your theory.  Order and time is her compulsion.  Anything that interferes with that would cause kaos in her life.  I think she did what she had to do to survive.  By killing Vivi, she made it all go away.  Many mentally ill people do not have a conscience. 

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bookhunter wrote:

I really want to understand WHY Ginny kills Vivi.  Ginny has her own "ginny logic" about everything, so I think she must have a "reason" for killing Vivi.

She is thrown off kilter by Vivi's seemingly ignoring the baby's grave.  In Ginny's mind, Vivi is SUPPOSED to mourn the baby because it was HER baby.

She is further thrown off by Vivi saying that Clive killed Maud.  This upsets Ginny's memory of what happened.  Further, Vivi suggests that Ginny had some fault in Maud's death by not telling the police what she had seen.

Because Ginny requires a strict order and structure in her thoughts and actions, she rids her life of anything that interferes with that.  She has shut off rooms, sold all the "clutter" in the house.

So killing Vivi is ridding herself of something that upsets her orderly life.  And like in the quote that Thayer pointed out, as a scientist she rises above instinct and emotion.

Does that make sense to you all (in "ginny logic", at least!)"

Ann, bookhunter

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[KxBurns]

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bentley wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:

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bentley wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:

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paula_02912 wrote:

bentley wrote: "A definite possibility! I think she's emerged as the cannibal caterpillar..."

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Actually, that was me

And we'll definitely have more discussion of the whole cannibal caterpillar metaphor in the next chapters, as I think it's a topic that informs the whole book (not a spoiler! I just mean b/c the next chapters are our last).

---

Karen, I had also made that observation as did many other folks. Great minds think alike.

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Clearly. But  I was referring to the exact quotation.

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Let us not get so caught up in it (LOL)...but clearly the poster was also correct. But I think many cited the exact quotation..some the entire quote, some paraphrased it and others alluded to the reference. The quote was not rocket science; and the reference was obvious. I do have to smile about this though. If you would like to take credit for it; it is OK..please be my guest. I do think it is odd your correcting the poster though, a little bit of ego.

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Bentley, I get  the sense you have a problem with me. If that is the case and you wish to discuss it, shoot me a PM. Otherwise, please focus your comments on the book.

[bentley]

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KxBurns wrote:

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bentley wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:

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bentley wrote:

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KxBurns wrote:

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paula_02912 wrote:

bentley wrote: "A definite possibility! I think she's emerged as the cannibal caterpillar..."

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Actually, that was me

And we'll definitely have more discussion of the whole cannibal caterpillar metaphor in the next chapters, as I think it's a topic that informs the whole book (not a spoiler! I just mean b/c the next chapters are our last).

---

Karen, I had also made that observation as did many other folks. Great minds think alike.

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Clearly. But  I was referring to the exact quotation.

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Let us not get so caught up in it (LOL)...but clearly the poster was also correct. But I think many cited the exact quotation..some the entire quote, some paraphrased it and others alluded to the reference. The quote was not rocket science; and the reference was obvious. I do have to smile about this though. If you would like to take credit for it; it is OK..please be my guest. I do think it is odd your correcting the poster though, a little bit of ego.

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Bentley, I get  the sense you have a problem with me. If that is the case and you wish to discuss it, shoot me a PM. Otherwise, please focus your comments on the book.

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No, I do not have a problem with you Karen. I pointed out an issue which I observed and did sense/have a problem with - that is all (which by the way I did not initiate; but had a right to point out).

Please do not attempt to make this or my response personal. I have kept my comments to the book as I always do (aside from what I noticed in that specific instance). I do not need to shoot you a PM; nor do I want to receive one.

Just as an aside, I think I also have observed a lot of touchiness lately. I have not participated in any of that AT ALL. Too bad; the book has been an educational experience and the exchanges (all of them) have been quite thoughtful. I think that when good terrific debates have taken place; there have been some awesome exchanges. It is always beneficial to hear the good with the not so good and allow these exchanges to happen on their own. I had been one of the first to praise you on your handling of The House of Riverton as you recall.

[KxBurns]

Well then -- moving on!...

In this group of chapters there is quite a bit of internal turmoil for Ginny, and I wanted to direct your attention to a passage that illustrates it. Right after she ponders all the tasks she'll have to accomplish when she confirms Vivien's death, Ginny says:

"Suddenly the whole house is unbearably large. I feel like I'm part of a huge continent but that chunks of it have started to break off around me and drift away in all directions, and all that's left of me is this little island, floating motionless in the center as all the other bits of land move farther and farther off like icebergs from a glacier in summer" (p. 241).

Do you think this is a moment of clarity for her, where she correctly recognizes her isolation, or is it simply another example of her pulling back from the world?

[bentley]

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KxBurns wrote:

Well then -- moving on!...

In this group of chapters there is quite a bit of internal turmoil for Ginny, and I wanted to direct your attention to a passage that illustrates it. Right after she ponders all the tasks she'll have to accomplish when she confirms Vivien's death, Ginny says:

"Suddenly the whole house is unbearably large. I feel like I'm part of a huge continent but that chunks of it have started to break off around me and drift away in all directions, and all that's left of me is this little island, floating motionless in the center as all the other bits of land move farther and farther off like icebergs from a glacier in summer" (p. 241).

Do you think this is a moment of clarity for her, where she correctly recognizes her isolation, or is it simply another example of her pulling back from the world?

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To me, her isolation was a necessity she felt she needed to survive. She did not want to allow additional variables to surface or to be added to her life. The family that she has had has left her in one way or another. Ginny doesn't have the courage or the psychological capability to know what she needs or to seek it out from others. I think she is paralyzed with inertia and has become psychotic. She needed some kind of intervention. What happened was one of the things which would have ultimately occurred if she had not died first. Vivian's demise gave Ginny her rebirth into a new life.

[gmfuhlman]

I agree with you I expected more from the ending. Just did not like how it ended.  But I have enjoyed reading difference kind of books that I might or might not  pick up and read.

gmfuhlman

[thewanderingjew]

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KxBurns wrote:

Well then -- moving on!...

In this group of chapters there is quite a bit of internal turmoil for Ginny, and I wanted to direct your attention to a passage that illustrates it. Right after she ponders all the tasks she'll have to accomplish when she confirms Vivien's death, Ginny says:

"Suddenly the whole house is unbearably large. I feel like I'm part of a huge continent but that chunks of it have started to break off around me and drift away in all directions, and all that's left of me is this little island, floating motionless in the center as all the other bits of land move farther and farther off like icebergs from a glacier in summer" (p. 241).

Do you think this is a moment of clarity for her, where she correctly recognizes her isolation, or is it simply another example of her pulling back from the world?

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Most of Ginny’s adult life was spent closing off rooms, selling off possessions and isolating herself in order to feel safe. Always alone, "she was an island in the house". For her life to be manageable, Ginny, had to create a small, tidy world in which she was the focal point and in total control.

When Vivi arrived the world expanded and became untidy and disordered again. She experienced emotions and thoughts she had not entertained in years. I think Ginny’s world spun out of control because of Vivi’s independence and intrusion into her life. Ginny began to question Vivi’s right to be there in the house.

When she killed Vivi, all she had left was the house, now so much larger with so many more rooms reopened. Ginny had been forced to reenter that part of the house which she had not previously been in for quite some time. Perhaps the recognition of the enormous size of the house is also a recognition of the enormity of the act she had committed.

That said, "chunks of the house had been falling away for years". With Vivi’s death "an enormous chunk of her own life", so intertwined with Vivi’s, was falling away as well. 

I think on some level, she understood that she had reached a point of no return and was forced to face the fact that she was now finally and totally alone in the wasteland she had created, an empty world with absolutely no meaning, a world to which she had no connection.

twj 

[KxBurns]

thewanderingjew wrote

When Vivi arrived the world expanded and became untidy and disordered again. She experienced emotions and thoughts she had not entertained in years. I think Ginny’s world spun out of control because of Vivi’s independence and intrusion into her life. Ginny began to question Vivi’s right to be there in the house.

When she killed Vivi, all she had left was the house, now so much larger with so many more rooms reopened. Ginny had been forced to reenter that part of the house which she had not previously been in for quite some time. Perhaps the recognition of the enormous size of the house is also a recognition of the enormity of the act she had committed.

That said, "chunks of the house had been falling away for years". With Vivi’s death "an enormous chunk of her own life", so intertwined with Vivi’s, was falling away as well. 

I think on some level, she understood that she had reached a point of no return and was forced to face the fact that she was now finally and totally alone in the wasteland she had created, an empty world with absolutely no meaning, a world to which she had no connection.

twj 

Bleak but spot-on, twj! I especially like the observation that the house expanded when Vivi arrived, only to shrink back down again in the wake of her death.

[mnotto]

I would really like to know what Vivi was going to tell Ginny before she died....

[thewanderingjew]

karen, i just wanted to thank you for moderating. i enjoyed reading the book and all of the postings.

twj

Message Edited by thewanderingjew on 03-27-2008 02:22 PM

[Johanna88]

I really enjoyed reading this book, and I cannot wait to read the next first look. Does anyone have any clue as to what it may be? I am in no hurry though. I think I am going to read the sister again because it is so good. I also find that when you read a good book twice, you catch on some things that you missed.