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Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-07-2008 12:41 PM - edited 03-11-2008 02:31 PM
Chapter 17: A Prayer
-how would you say the pregnancy changed the dynamic between Ginny, Vivi and Arthur? What about the baby's death? Why do you think Ginny described the baby as wise (p. 197)? Do you believe Vivi really forgot about her baby, and if so, why?
-I found the entire scene of Ginny eavesdropping outside the church beautifully written (pages 189 to 192) and I think the part about the ants especially illuminates Ginny's view of the world.
-we come to find out that Ginny misled Clive (and us?) about her research, and also that she did not visit him for eight years before his death! How does this confirm or refute some of our thoughts about her personality? Her prominence is cast in further doubt by Eileen's visit and Ginny's subsequent conversation with Vivi. Do you think the lunch Vivi proposes is an attempt to call Ginny's bluff?
-Dr. Moyse seems to have been up to just what we suspected. Isn't there some validity to Ginny's point about the granny being both happy and sad? Or, is she missing the point?
Chapter 18: The Bobble-Hat Woman and the Leaflets
-I was spellbound by this chapter, as Ginny and Vivi finally have the conversation we have been waiting for them to have. In your opinion, is Vivi's version of events more likely to be accurate? How does it change our feelings about Vivi (if at all)? What did you make of her intentions to have Ginny take some responsibility for Maud's death?
Chapter 19: The Moth Hunter
-just when it seems like maybe Ginny is gaining new clarity, she goes off the deep end! I do like her observation that if the baby had lived "it was hers; if it died, it was for me to mourn" (p. 232). But it's striking that her mourning of Samuel seems to develop only in response to her new bitterness toward Vivi.
-from Ginny's description of the lab -- which looks as if she and Clive have simply adjourned for lunch -- I'm guessing that she probably has not worked there at all since Clive left. But she sure remembers about all those poisons!...
*As you might have guessed, we'll be discussing Chapter 20 with the rest of "Monday." I apologize for the confusion – the T.O.C. I was looking at when I drew up the schedule was a little off.
However, since I'm sure you're anxious to get into it, I will post the "Monday" thread (so, chapters 20-22) tomorrow, a day early.
Message Edited by KxBurns on 03-11-2008 02:31 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 03:50 PM - edited 03-11-2008 03:55 PM
KxBurns wrote:Chapter 17: A Prayer
- Do you believe Vivi really forgot about her baby, and if so, why?
-Dr. Moyse seems to have been up to just what we suspected. Isn't there some validity to Ginny's point about the granny being both happy and sad? Or, is she missing the point?
Chapter 19: The Moth Hunter
-just when it seems like maybe Ginny is gaining new clarity, she goes off the deep end! I do like her observation that if the baby had lived "it was hers; if it died, it was for me to mourn" (p. 232). But it's striking that her mourning of Samuel seems to develop only in response to her new bitterness toward Vivi.
Message Edited by niknak13 on 03-11-2008 02:55 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 04:23 PM
I thought the exact same thing about the quote on
niknak13 wrote:
KxBurns wrote:Chapter 17: A Prayer
- Do you believe Vivi really forgot about her baby, and if so, why?
-Dr. Moyse seems to have been up to just what we suspected. Isn't there some validity to Ginny's point about the granny being both happy and sad? Or, is she missing the point?
Chapter 19: The Moth Hunter
-just when it seems like maybe Ginny is gaining new clarity, she goes off the deep end! I do like her observation that if the baby had lived "it was hers; if it died, it was for me to mourn" (p. 232). But it's striking that her mourning of Samuel seems to develop only in response to her new bitterness toward Vivi.
I can't imagine that Vivi would forget about the baby. It appears that Dr. Moyse was evaluating Ginny's ability to read and determine emotion with the card game. Her confusion with the granny may be showing that she is lacking in that social skill. So, it may be that Ginny was misreading Vivi's reaction (or lack of) to Samuel's grave. It could also be that Vivi remembers the baby, but it is too painful and it also led to her disconnecting from her sister and from Arthur.I do think that the proposed lunch is a way to further open Ginny's eyes to the fact that all is not how she sees it.I find it interesting that we finally get the most emotion out of Ginny when she has been "awakened" to the "truth" about herself (vaguely) and the events of Maud's death. I am immediately reminded of a thought that Ginny had on pg. 135 "If you were born unaware, at least you'd be blissfully ignorant. It's not as if you're going to wake up one day and suddenly discover yourself."I think that Ginny is doing just that. Vivi has revealed things to Ginny and she is discovering the pain of the possibility that Vivi may not love her unconditionally as Ginny has loved her, along with the pain of Samuel dying.Ginny is emerging from a cocoon that has surrounded her since birth.
Message Edited by niknak13 on 03-11-2008 02:55 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 04:23 PM - edited 03-11-2008 04:24 PM
I thought the exact same thing about the quote on pg.135!
niknak13 wrote:
KxBurns wrote:Chapter 17: A Prayer
- Do you believe Vivi really forgot about her baby, and if so, why?
-Dr. Moyse seems to have been up to just what we suspected. Isn't there some validity to Ginny's point about the granny being both happy and sad? Or, is she missing the point?
Chapter 19: The Moth Hunter
-just when it seems like maybe Ginny is gaining new clarity, she goes off the deep end! I do like her observation that if the baby had lived "it was hers; if it died, it was for me to mourn" (p. 232). But it's striking that her mourning of Samuel seems to develop only in response to her new bitterness toward Vivi.
I can't imagine that Vivi would forget about the baby. It appears that Dr. Moyse was evaluating Ginny's ability to read and determine emotion with the card game. Her confusion with the granny may be showing that she is lacking in that social skill. So, it may be that Ginny was misreading Vivi's reaction (or lack of) to Samuel's grave. It could also be that Vivi remembers the baby, but it is too painful and it also led to her disconnecting from her sister and from Arthur.I do think that the proposed lunch is a way to further open Ginny's eyes to the fact that all is not how she sees it.I find it interesting that we finally get the most emotion out of Ginny when she has been "awakened" to the "truth" about herself (vaguely) and the events of Maud's death. I am immediately reminded of a thought that Ginny had on pg. 135 "If you were born unaware, at least you'd be blissfully ignorant. It's not as if you're going to wake up one day and suddenly discover yourself."I think that Ginny is doing just that. Vivi has revealed things to Ginny and she is discovering the pain of the possibility that Vivi may not love her unconditionally as Ginny has loved her, along with the pain of Samuel dying.Ginny is emerging from a cocoon that has surrounded her since birth.
Message Edited by niknak13 on 03-11-2008 02:55 PM
Message Edited by psujulie on 03-11-2008 04:24 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 04:26 PM
Even though Clive's supervisor said it was best I was surprised that Ginny stopped visiting Clive and didn't see him for the five years before his death.
I was very sad about Ginny and Arthur's baby dying but I'm afraid I'm still wondering if some of this is in Ginny's mind when I see Vivi ignore Samuel's grave.
18- We learn in this chapter that Vivi thinks Maud was murdered by Clive and I think she's given Ginny something to think about because she realizes that she never saw her fall. And typical of this totally dysfunctional family that everybody knew about Maud's drinking and Ginny's abuse but no one did anything about it except maybe discuss it behind Ginny's back. And how like Ginny to go hide inside herself when Vivi confronts her about the whole thing.
19 - this chapter made Ginny see how selfish Vivi is, she rethinks her life, thinks a lot about Arthur and Samuel and Clive.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 04:45 PM
dhaupt wrote:
17 - I found it strange that Vivi only visited Ginny twice during the pregnancy and I feel that Arthur and Ginny became closer maybe than they should have. And I thought how strange must Vivi's and Arthur's marriage be that this would have transpired.
Even though Clive's supervisor said it was best I was surprised that Ginny stopped visiting Clive and didn't see him for the five years before his death.
I was very sad about Ginny and Arthur's baby dying but I'm afraid I'm still wondering if some of this is in Ginny's mind when I see Vivi ignore Samuel's grave.
18- We learn in this chapter that Vivi thinks Maud was murdered by Clive and I think she's given Ginny something to think about because she realizes that she never saw her fall. And typical of this totally dysfunctional family that everybody knew about Maud's drinking and Ginny's abuse but no one did anything about it except maybe discuss it behind Ginny's back. And how like Ginny to go hide inside herself when Vivi confronts her about the whole thing.
19 - this chapter made Ginny see how selfish Vivi is, she rethinks her life, thinks a lot about Arthur and Samuel and Clive.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 04:54 PM
dhaupt wrote:
...Even though Clive's supervisor said it was best I was surprised that Ginny stopped visiting Clive and didn't see him for the five years before his death.
I was very sad about Ginny and Arthur's baby dying but I'm afraid I'm still wondering if some of this is in Ginny's mind when I see Vivi ignore Samuel's grave.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 05:02 PM
"I stare out of the laboratory window into the silver darkness and suddenly
I feel him there, even though he's been there all along. I think of the flints
and the still mound of earth and I want to go back and, like a wild woman,
desperately paw at the ground, dig him up and hold him, just hold his lonely
bones, claim him, own him, be his mother, all because his real mother was too
selfish to have him."
It seemed that for the first time, Ginny realized that she had also let Samuel down. But, the anger she felt for her sister was incredible!
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 05:34 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 05:49 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 06:37 PM
DSaff wrote:
Arthur holds the baby past his death. What a poignant moment! "Okay. So, I'll hold you," says Arthur.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 06:51 PM
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 06:59 PM
Tarri wrote:These three chapters just made me sad. Sad for Ginny who lost her entire family in just a short time and who is so cut off from reality that when her baby dies she is unable to know how she should feel without someone telling her.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:08 PM
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:09 PM
I like that the mound for the shallow grave Ginny and Arthur dug that was left after burying Samuel still exists to this day. This seems an everlasting tribute to Samuel, more so than the lovingly-made headstone could ever do justice.
I refer to my above mention (for Chapter 17) of wondering if Ginny had abandoned studies when Clive checked himself into the senior center. It's just sad to see it's heartwrenching state of disrepair. It seems to me that, when Clive left, Ginny locked up the room as if to preserve the times/memories spent studying this field with her father.
I find it creepy that she is going through her poisons one at a time, remarking on the killing capacity of each one. Makes me wonder if Ginny has any future plans for the remaining poison or if it will be at all effective for whatever she plans to do with it?
Maybe Ginny will take up her studies as her passion for the study seems to be renewed, or is it just the "threat" of having members of the society show up and her being sorely unprepared that causes the renewal of interest?
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:17 PM
But is she really?
Because when she is threatened with what's outside the cocoon, sher goes off into her private space, which is her real cocoon.
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:19 PM
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:21 PM
Which seems to contradict, doesn't it?, Vivi's contention that everybody was protecting Ginny all the time? Where was her protection from this abuse?
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:23 PM
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Re: Sunday: Chapters 17 through 19
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03-11-2008 07:24 PM
Tarri wrote:These three chapters just made me sad. Sad for Ginny who lost her entire family in just a short time ...
Is it any wonder that she retreated into the house never to emerge?
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.