A question for all older readers of the fantasy genre

[FictionFanatic…]

I've got an open-answer question for all of you fantasy lovers. I've been reading Fantasy novels ever since I learned how to read and the older I got the more I started to notice that not many 20-somethings or older were reading Fantasy novels with mature themes. As someone who has been working on developing a dark, mature fantasy series for the last nine years, I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is even a market for my work.

So you all tell me, is there a market for a fantasy series that tells raw, dark, mature interpretations of characters' lives, actions, and situations? Where evil wins more than good? Where half of the characters are fence-sitters, and a good chunk of the plots involve radical, almost disturbing character perceptions on things like immortality, slavery, women as secondary citizens, lawful rape, sex, magic, genocide, masochisim, indentured servitude, glory killings, torture, and social and personal identity?

The psychology of my characters is what drives the plots, and most of the time those characters have some pretty horrific perceptions...especially the villians. That being said, I haven't set out to make a commentary on our reality, but rather have created an entirely new reality for these characters. A world that is darker, deeper, and more dangerous than anything in this world.

But as I'm nearing the end of my writing process, I'm beginning to wonder if the literary world is ready for such a fantasy series.

What do you all think? Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Just be honest.

-K

[orb9220]

I think there is plenty of room for the Dark Side!

As I would be interested in such deviations from the norm. Firsts for me was R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf series that was a refreshing change in the fantasy genre. And just like many of the Graphic Novels and even Superhero comics have more of the dark flavors to them.

And just as important that always doing right and good doesn't mean you always win. Sometimes it is about how you accept and deal with defeat. And what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. My strongest life lessons came from my own dark recesses of my mind. And how I conquered or gave in to them determined who I am today. I hope a better person.

I am always up for shinning a light into the dark to see and confront what is there. And acceptance of evil as a strong part of us. That requires constant battle.

.

[Omnigeek]

While not as marketable as Rick Riordan or J.K. Rowling's work, I do think there's a market for that kind of novel.  I wasn't a big fan of the Harry Potter series but if you notice, the books got much darker and more serious towards the end.  In addition, I see that a lot of the kids playing MMORPGs these days seem to want to play the evil side.  I actually think Hollywood is TOO drawn toward portraying the world as dark and menacing these days but there's definitely a market.

[RHWright]

I think there is a market for many different styles of fantasy. I'm glad there is, actually. Because not every book will appeal to each reader, a diverse range of options mean there is something for almost every taste.

That said, as reader in the "20-something or older" demo, my personal opinions on some of the ideas you throw out:

1) Good writing trumps alot. Not always, but often enough, a talented author can take you on an enjoyable journey despite your normal objections to the subject.

2) Dark does not (necessarily) = "mature" or "deep". I've seen plenty of dark fantasy that is shallow in its execution; I've seen plenty of heroic fantasy that is complex, thoughtful, and engaging on many levels. Again, IMO, maturity is a matter of execution not content.

3) "So you all tell me, is there a market for a fantasy series that tells raw, dark, mature interpretations of characters' lives, actions, and situations? Where evil wins more than good? Where half of the characters are fence-sitters, and a good chunk of the plots involve radical, almost disturbing character perceptions on things like immortality, slavery, women as secondary citizens, lawful rape, sex, magic, genocide, masochisim, indentured servitude, glory killings, torture, and social and personal identity?"

There is a market for complex stories well told. Specific appeal of these to me: evil wins more than good? No. But you seem to be veering toward moral ambiguities where "evil" isn't so simple. There are ways to make it work. Fence-sitting characters? No, and it's difficult to make them appealing, unless their internal conflict is key to the story. Slavery, women as secondary citizens? No. And if you're not making some kind of statement about how these are bad, you will have a limited audience. Sex? Yes, please. But if you're going for mainstream appeal, you can't push far over the line into full-on erotica. Magic? It is fantasy, after all. Genocide? Another tricky one, that must clearly be portrayed as a bad thing. Masochism? Well, Terry Goodkind's seeming fixation on S&M turned me off of his books. Indentured servitude, glory killings, torture? Once again, tricky topics for a mainstream audience. Social and personal identity? Depends on the disturbing perceptions you're considering, but this sounds the most interesting.

4) You seem to be working in a world of very disturbing (and disturbed) anti-heroes. The anti-hero can be made appealing and sympathetic. See Moorcock's Eternal Champion series, Rice's Vampire Lestat, or even Hannibal Lecter. Be aware that people generally like a protagonist they can root for, despite their flaws. Making them indistinguishable from villains undercuts their appeal.

5) Characters with horrific perceptions. Hmmm...tricky. Are you saying you like to write heroes that think slavery, degrading women, committing genocide, and getting off on killing and torture are good ideas? And that these have no negative implications, moral or otherwise in the story? Then, quite possibly, your ideas lack mainstream appeal. There may be an audience for it, but it is small percentage of the fantasy market.

Hope my insights were informative and helpful. Good luck with your endeavors!

[orb9220]

RHWright well thought out and presented.

Kudos and had to Laurel-ette You! 

.

[infael]

I love a good dark fantasy. Hard to find tho.

[swe196109]

Well I'm 50 and love to read these kind of stories and will until I die so please I would continue.

[fashoti]

I definitely thing that there is room for it. I would totally read that, it sounds really interesting. I love reading these kinds of books.

[Htom_Serveaux]

But as I'm nearing the end of my writing process, I'm beginning to wonder if the literary world is ready for such a fantasy series.

---

Let me start with: I don't mean for this to sound as curt as it will probably appear to be in cold print.

That said, have you ever heard of a slightly successful series called "A Song of Ice and Fire" aka "A Game of Thrones"?  There's also Joe Abercrombie's "First Law" series and the later books set in the same world, Glen Cook's "Black Company", the original "bad boy" "Elric of Melnibone" (still in print with re-releases every few years) and I could go on.

I guess all I'm really trying to say is that there are certainly good prospects and precedents for a well written and presented dark fantasy series with psychological overtones.

[FictionFanatic…]

Firstly, thank you for the thorough response. Allow me to address some of your concerns/questions.

When I say dark, I am categorizing the psychology of the stories. And when I say mature, I mean mature as in the mindset of the characters and the content of the plot as well as the overall 'rating' of the story. To me these are two separate things.

Evil wins more than Good- I'm not saying that Evil will triumph in the end, but it does tend to win most of the battles during the war, so to speak. You're correct, though; I'm leaning toward the ambiguity of evil as a focal point in the stories because evil is really a question of character perception and psychology to me.

Fence-sitting Characters- I actually disagree with you on this one. I truly believe that many readers are tired of the obviously evil/good characters and wouldn't mind a few characters they couldn't figure out. These people aren't so much anti anything, as they are undecided individuals who are standing at the crossroad of their life and can go one way or the other, but can't seem to make a decision either way. They are on a fence in the sense that they can't make up their mind, and will therefore do some really bad and some really good things in the process of making that decision.

Slavery and women as secondary citizens- No further comment than this-- without these, there would be no story.

Characters with horrific perceptions- Let me simply say this by way of response-- just because a character acts like a hero doesn't mean he/she is one. Same with villains. And yes, there are many negative and positive implications within the story. I don't write one-sided characters.

Once more, thank you for your lengthy and honest response.

[RHWright]

Thanks for elaborating.

It seems to boil down to this: you want to tell complex stories with complex, layered characters.

This is a good goal. If well executed, it is eminently marketable.

Certain topics may turn off certain readers but, as I said, good writing trumps many objections.

Terry Goodkind managed to turn me off and I never went back.

GRRM having a character throw a child out a window (in GoT) had me walk away until others convinced me to stick with it; and they were right.

No one reaches 100% of readers. But what you've described seems to have appeal in the fantasy marketplace. What you've hinted at has me waiting to see what comes of it.

Good luck with your endeavors!

[RHWright]

Just some thoughts that may start to spin this a little astray from the main topic:

1) "I started to notice that not many 20-somethings or older were reading Fantasy novels with mature themes." Admittedly, some adults only read books written for children but that have reached general popularity (Twilight, Harry Potter, Percy Jackson). But those aside, what novels would you count on either side of the divide?

2) Not quite clear on what you mean by "dark" psychology for characters. I'm drawing the inference that it's something more than just complex, fully-realized characters that don't fall neatly into a good/evil dichotomy. Can you expand on this?

I've been finding this quite an intriguing thread, with valuable, respectful dialogue going back & forth.

I'd love to keep it going for awhile longer.

[infael]

If you're asking what, if any YA books us older readers read, I've read some. Some are good, some are great, some are too juvenline for me. The YA books I liked:

The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper

Bartimaeus by Jonathan Stroud

The Golden Compass by Phil Pullman (the rest weren't that great)

Harry Potter

a series about doors, by Kevin Anderson and Rebecca Moesta

There was a SF series by an author that had a symbiotic dragon that was the last of its kind. The dragon teamed with a boy, to fight back against the alien race that killed off his people. The dragon lived inside the boy but was able to come out and manifest itself for a while. I liked that one.

[MacMcK1957]

Over the last several years there has been a huge amount of well-publicized fantasy targeted to the YA readers, to the point where some people might think YA has come to dominate the genre.  But adult fantasy is as strong as ever, maybe even stronger since the LOTR films and the HBO adaptation of George Martin's series.  Lately I've been enjoying L. E. Modesitt's books, which are excellent, and rereading Terry Brooks.  I love Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series.

As far as teenagers swooning over sultry vampires and brooding werewolves, I'll pass, but to each their own.

[RHWright]

I was thinking less along the lines of what YA books we adults are reading and more along the lines of what mainstream/adult titles the OP and other people thought qualify as "mature" in their themes and handling of those themes, characters, etc.; and which titles, purportedly targeted at adults, people thought were less so.

As someone mentioned, I think GoT does a good job. I'm also a fan of Gene Wolfe, Michael Moorcock, Ursula LeGuin, and others.

[AlySedai]

I definitely think that there is a market out there for the dark fantasy genre, especially in older readers.

Some people just never got "into" the fantasy genre from the beginning, but those I know who have, have studk with it.

As far as the points that you've made, here are my thoughts:

1.) Dark and Mature: To me, this means that the book deals with themes that are "mature." It deals with the nature of intrigue, of the ruthlessness of humanity (sometimes) and that things aren't always sunshine and roses. Many people read as an escape, to avoid or get away from the things that they see too often in real life. Often, people want their books to convey a sense of hope that they don't get in real life. I find that THAT might be the biggest problem that some people have with this genre. The good guys might not necissarily win...and people can't deal with that. If you want to see an example of this, take af look at the reviews for the books in the Hunger Games series (YA and more Sci Fi, but still). If you read the reviews on the first two books, the books where the main character is strong and doesn't show any weakness, people LOVE it. When you get to the third book, however, the series becomes darker, more mature, and frankly, more realistic. People did NOT like it. It's a matter of preference. Mature and Dark doesn't have to mean vulgar or inappropriate. It's just more gritty.

2.) Fence Sitters: People don't like to be reminded about how tough choices are. Personally, I love the fence sitter. I love the person who has to think about their choices. Not everything in life is cut and dry, and neither should it be in literature. On the other hand, fence sitters can get tedious. If they sit for too long, you lose the reader. And EVERY decision that they make shouldn't be contemplated for too long. Most people don't spend hours on every decision that they make. So your books shouldn't either.

3.) Horrific Perceptions, etc.: I really like alternate worlds like this. It's so vastly different from most of what we experience in real life. But there are people out there. Just like people enjoy watching reality TV because of the train wrecks that sometimes show their true colors in front of millions of people, so people enjoy reading about these sorts of people in books. I know I love shows like "Hoarders" and "Intervention." Shows that show the dark side of humanity, and shows that reveal hidden motivations and such, are a great attention grabber. Again, some people don't want to read about those things, but I think that there is still a market for it as well.

Aside from GRRM, there are some fantasy authors that do dark fantasy REALLY well. Check out Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series or Anne Bishop's Black Jewels trilogy for great examples of the genre. Good luck!

Kushiel's Dart (Kushiel's Legacy Series #1) 

Daughter of The Blood (Black Jewels Series #1)   

[deesy58]

I would think that would definitely be a market.  Look at the popularity of vampire and horror movies these days.  Although it would not appeal to me, personally, I'm sure that it would to many. 

I read fantasy and sci/fi as a form of escapism from the real world.  Dark stories remind me too much of where we live today.  While I want realistic characters and dialog, I also want somebody in the story to be wearing a white hat, so to speak. 

The comment about Glen Cook's Black Company is a good case in point.  The original book had the company's doctor as the central character, and he could hardly be referred to as "evil."  Sadly, the series seemed to slowly degenerate into a story line with gradations of evil and ruthlessness with little redeeming "goodness."  (I read all of the books.) 

I wouldn't the books you describe, but I'll bet a lot of readers would.  Go for it!

[FictionFanatic…]

RHWright:

We can continue this conversation as long as you like. I too am enjoying the back and forth and the insights.

Here is how I view fantasy. My mind breaks it into 4 seperate categories based on the maturity of the themes within a story. This is a brief list.

Calm (mature themes do not exist in the material) - L. Frank Baum's Oz series: no marriage, no dating, no sex, no racism, etc.

Choppy (mature themes exist, but are not overly expressed in the material) - The Giver: a boy discovers the reality of life within a spartan utopia: marriage, love, sex, politics, color recognition, names, identity of self based on your job... these aspects are explored through innocent bystanders, not through 'knowing' mature characters. The Water Trilogy, The Coville Unicorn novels.

Drowning (mature themes are given weight within the material, but the overall story is seen as Choppy) - The Twilight Series, The Southern Vampire Series, the Acorna series.

Visting Atlantis (systematicly mature material: from the vocabulary used to write the story, the sentence variance, the character mindsets, the depth of the plot, etc.) Game of Thrones, LOTR, The Eight (technically, this is historical fantasy, but still a strong example of fancy (aka whimsy) in literature), The Historian (ditto previous aside).

And this is where I plan to write...

Citizen of Atlantis (thoroughly mature material in every aspect of the story)

Let me think about the "dark psychology" definition and get back to you. It's proving difficult to explain my perceptions without giving too much away.

-K