ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

[dhaupt]

Okay I'm going to comment before I read all 59 comments and 3pages worth of participation.

Wow, a lot is going on, so much in fact that I'm having a hard time resolving one issue before Ken throws another one at us.

I'm really concerned for Isaak, what it means that his "heart" has a crack in it, what it might mean if the series had to go on with out him, after all he's been through to become "human" I would hate to loose him.

I'm not sure that I agree with Rudolfo sending Jin Li and Jakob into the spiders web of Ria and her "new/old" religious factors. I don't trust her.

Petronus having these day-dreams, it has to do with his coming back from death, but I just don't know what to make of it all. I'm assuming that the Hebba in these visions/dreams whatever is Neb's father and now I'm wondering if he really perished in the fall of Windwir by a comment made by Petronus on page 166 "How many of you survived Windwir?" hmmm see more to think about.

Then we have the Li Tams following the ghost in the waters

And Neb and Winters when you read the first two volumes it's obvious that they have a solid connection and in Canticle he's the homeseeker. Ah so many questions

[flouncyninja]

I think my biggest question stemming from this second section is whether Vlad Li Tam purposefully sent one of his daughters to the Y'zirite movement as a spy or if somehow her assignment diverged from it's original intentions?  I would think Vlad would have had an inkling of what was going on if he had an "inside man" and it sounds like the Tam that met up with Neb had been inside for quite some time (she had a hard time initially remembering Landlish).  I know this is a seemingly small detail in comparison with questions like what is going on with those older mechs, but it's the question I find tugging at my mind the most.  That and what/who her message was originally before Neb gave their position away.

Neb is the homeseeker and him finding the Marsh peoples new home is a threat to Ria's plans to take over the Named Lands on behalf of the Crimson Empress.  So she sent out runners who can withstand the blood magics to find him and take them to mechs, who also seem to be seeking out the answer to the moon's song. 

The song needs a response.  Is there only one correct response that eventually Neb, the older mechs, Isaak, etc., would come to and give to the song or are there many different responses that could have many different results?  Is it more an equation with a proper answer, as the number string that keeps being referenced would emply, or a question that leads to something depending on the answer it receives?  Can it be answered more than once or is the first person's response the "winner"?  So many questions, so many riddles!

Was it just me or, during Neb's last run through the aether before the unnamed Tam shot him with the thorn gun, did he end up on the Moon Tower with Isaac?  Did I misread that?  There was reference to the brown moon, the blue green sea... I thought his walking through the aether was more or less "real time" as much as real time includes dead fathers, but Isaak is not on the moon.  Is he moving through time as well as space?

Is the mech in the boat that the ghost sent the Tam family the deceased remains of our suicidal friend from Canticle?  Did the other older mechs give him a "burial at sea"?  Perhaps he's still in a way that he could be saved with the right help.

I really enjoyed the explanation of why Isaak is so different and how he's managed to create a personality through the fusing of his scrolls to the firestone that powers him.  I wonder if similar alterations have caused the older mechs to have similar personality changes or if the dream is just so much bigger that it affected them from the inside out.  And now Isaak has the dream, more or less embedded into his system through the scroll and he's going to search for his cousins.  Won't this lead him past the exploration team that Rodolfo has searching thourgh the mountains and will he approve to letting Isaak just disappearing underground?

I know there are a million other things to ponder - the blood temples in the Ninefold Forest, the underground insurgence with Winters people, the terrifying indoctrination of the Machvolk children into the Y'zirite gospel, Patronus traveling to Neb just as Neb was traveling to the wall - but now I think I will read everyone else's thoughts.

Leslie

[flouncyninja]

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vpenning wrote:

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ABShaeffer wrote:

Okay . . . is the Arch-behaviorist Hebda, Neb's father? Was the man masquerading as Hebda in Lamentation sent by the real Hebda to bring Neb to him in the waste? For what purpose? Who is Neb? He's special, but why? Because of his mother? Is she connected with the Crimson Empress? With House Y'Zir?

As far as prophecies go, if it's sequential, since we already saw "the thorn shall not sting him," we should expect to see, "nor the beasts of the beneath rend him, nor the ghosts in the water flee him." Will he encounter Vlad's ghost--perhaps his fallen moon, the one for whom the Canticle was sung?

So many questions.

It's taking a lot of willpower not to blaze through the book to find all the answers he'll give us in this volume.

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My take is that Hebda IS Nebs true father. There are many references in the other books that make me believe that he is the son of Hebda that he could not actually acknowledge, but like others of the Order found a way to be a father, and spend time with his son.

The fact that Neb is called an abomination makes be believe that there are two different races of people. Those from the blue/green moon, and those from the brown. I think that is why the blood magicks harm some, but others have not problem taking and living.

The Matchvolk are those from the blue/green moon...those who were from the Y'Zir moon. It is mentioned in the Weeping Czar that Alam is accused of falling in love with a Matchvolk boy.

I wonder if when they came to hatch their revenge on Fredrico's people, that they had folks trapped on the Brown moon...and they are now needing a way back.

And, Neb is a product of BOTH people. That he is an abomination because he has the blood of both races. It is said by Hebda in this section that he is how he is because of what he is.....

He may be the Homeseeker, because as one with blood from both races, he can find the portal and the means to return the Matchvolk back to their own moon.....

OK, just my musings after reading the Weeping Czar (finally) this morning, and then this section directly afterwards....

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I'm starting to think that Neb is not only the homeseeker, but the lands that Ria is so intent on taking back is really the same lands that Neb is seeking rather than the Named Lands.  I might be mistaken, but has there been a reference to the Named Lands as the home that the Y'zirites will take back as their rightful home?

Since Neb has also seen Hebda in his dreams and while walking through the aether, I'm more interested in wondering if he survived or if he's a spirit in the Beneath Places that can communicate through the stone in the quicksilver lake.  Maybe he's not Neb's biological father, but took the position up after his birth because he knew what Neb was to become.  I like the idea that Neb is of both people - Machtvolk from the blue green moon and those more fully from the brown earth.

[flouncyninja]

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Nadine wrote:

Melissa wrote:

I kind of don't think so.  I am just not sure how these Li Tam family members got to this side of the world.  ....  And Vlad Li Tam made a point of mentioning at the end of Lamentation that he took ALL his family EXCEPT his 42nd daughter, Jin Li Tam.  So has someone been taking the Li Tam family  members over the years past, when Vlad thought they where dead to bring them to this side?

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Another good point. Vlad knew all his children and grandchildren by name and they only did what he told them to do. That was the nature of the Tam family. So Vlad wasn't aware of this group. Your theory about them having been dead and brought back to life to serve another purpose seems far out, but who knows. "Nothing is as it seems to be."

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I know we were talking about the procreation rights of the Tam family in the last section's thread - can only the first son procreate or where are the aunts, uncles, etc.?  Since Jin Li Tam was encouraged to procreate, perhaps Vlad's children only have children when it's beneficial to his plans.  Then again, there were references to his grand children and his great grand children during his time in the blood temple, so I don't know if procreation "rights" are as strict as all that.

Which leads me to believe, what if this new Tam girl with Neb is actually a niece of Vlad's and not a direct decendant?  What if one of Vlad's own brothers or sisters were sent by his father (now known to be part of the Y'zirite movement or at least a crucial part of their plan) to this southern land and embedded into the Y'zirite movement.  Then the children of Vlad's brother or sister - his nieces and nephews - would probably be a large part of that society. 

I just find it odd that she has so many designs cut into her skin.  Ria and her people still just use the mud and ash to draw the circles and patterns on themselves, not actually cutting.  Perhaps the land of the Crimson Empress is more brutual and ritualistic and that's where the new Tam daughter is from.  She was taught the languages of the Named Lands (as Jin was taught the subverbal languages of cultures she might come across), but didn't necessarily use them.

[Nadine]

dalnewt wrote:

I don't consider the older model mechos to be a threat to anyone who isn't actively supporting this mysterious Y'Zirite Empire. The four mechos in the Wastes kill the Y'Zirite Waste running woman because she supports this mysterious empire that wants to bring about the Age of the Crimson Empress and is presumably hunting them, the artifact and Neb. As noted by Petroneus, the  woman's killing is humane and swift. Plus the mechos place a light stone near the head area of the woman's grave to represent the light of every human life, (a stone which Petronus throws away when the woman's re-buried). 

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Oh, yes. I had forgotten that. Excellent bit of important information. Mechoservitors can kill on their own initiative. They may have a moral code. And the burial! That is considered a very human trait. Humanoids are distinguished from other primates in archeology by the fact they bury their dead with reverence.

[Nadine]

vpenning wrote:

My take is that Hebda IS Nebs true father. There are many references in the other books that make me believe that he is the son of Hebda that he could not actually acknowledge, but like others of the Order found a way to be a father, and spend time with his son.

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I'm convinced of this also but then Beth Meachen, Ken's editor, made a remark that got me thinking otherwise. She didn't give away anything but the fact that she made the statement got me curious:

Beth Wrote:

Neb believes himself to be Brother Hebda's son, yes.  The rules of the Androfrancine order forbad the brothers from having children, though, and in LAMENTATION Neb talks about how he wanted to believe that the reason Hebda took such an interest in him was because he was Neb's father.

[krb2g]

Wow! What a section--from the moment of the attack during the library dedication, I knew we were going to be in for a rough ride. Who's the strange man that Jin Li Tam notices?

What's Brother Hebda's stake in all of this? I'm increasingly skeptical of/intrigued by the old Androfrancine order since Petronous, who was Pope, seems to have been in the dark about some of the order's most relevant (at least to the world that continues after the destruction of Windwir) projects. I feel like we're unpeeling an onion here--for every question that becomes more clear, several new layers of mystery pop up.

Nadine mentioned this on the thread for part 1, but after this section the connection between music and numbers seems even more important.

Isaak also seems more human--he's set up to potentially die of a heart attack--but also human in a strange way in that the reason his power source (in some ways akin to the heart) cannot be replaced is that it's tangled in his memory scrolls (which I'm reading as analogous to the brain). So he's now like a man who can't get a heart transplant because he'll lose his memory.

I was really happy to see that some of the Marshers are still loyal to Winters, though Jin Li Tam and Jakob's visit there struck me as a risky choice as well.

I'm definitely going to read the short stories next, but I'm not sure I'll be able to wait a week to read the next chunk of chapters!

[dalnewt]

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Nadine wrote:

vpenning wrote:

My take is that Hebda IS Nebs true father. There are many references in the other books that make me believe that he is the son of Hebda that he could not actually acknowledge, but like others of the Order found a way to be a father, and spend time with his son.

====================================

I'm convinced of this also but then Beth Meachen, Ken's editor, made a remark that got me thinking otherwise. She didn't give away anything but the fact that she made the statement got me curious:

Beth Wrote:

Neb believes himself to be Brother Hebda's son, yes.  The rules of the Androfrancine order forbad the brothers from having children, though, and in LAMENTATION Neb talks about how he wanted to believe that the reason Hebda took such an interest in him was because he was Neb's father.

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This info is really interesting about Neb believing that Hebda is his father. It certainly implies that someone else is the biological father of Neb.

He certainly is 'special' as evidenced by the 'Abomination' label; his ability to survive two poisonous thorns; his shared dreams with Winters of a homeland with a huge brown, blue and green moon; his ability to hear the Canticle despite the Wastes and/or dream/vison tamping and his certainty that he's destine to somehow decode the Canticle and find the Marsher's 'home'. Plus, Renard's statement in Canticle that Neb's father and mother knew he would be the 'homeseeker' even before his conception implies that he is some sort of melding of different peoples/races. We still don't know the identity of Neb's mother. Now, it seems we don't really know the id of his father either. I wonder if one of his parents was a Marsher/Machtvolk. It would certainly explain how he's able to share the dreams of destine homeland.     

[dalnewt]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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salander_9277 wrote:

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dalnewt wrote:

Ria is pitiful and twisted. She murdered Vlad's family and tortured Vlad. She believes it was necessary to complete a kin-healing with Vlad's family because, presumably, she was brain-washed to that belief in her youth. But, like any fanatic who does awful things to serve what they believe to be a higher purpose, she deserves to die, IMO.

I personally had a hard time empathizing with Jin Li when she accepted Ria's invitation to visit the Machtvolk territories. If I were her I'd want nothing more than to drive a knife into Ria's twisted heart (like Winter's does). Ria murdered Jin Li's brother and sisters, no, more accurately stated, Ria slowly tortured, then murdered Jin Li's brothers and sisters and probably some of her older nephews and nieces too. How Jin Li is able to accept the hospitality of the murderer of her family is a mystery to me. Sure, she wants to protect her son, but to go to the murderer of her family, nope, it's incomprehensible to me. I know that perhaps people can rationalize that she's actually gathering intelligence on Ria and the Machtvolk, but it still doesn't really explain how Jin Li could be in Ria's presence and not want kill her. Also, Jin Li was raised to hide her emotions/feelings and gather intelligence, but her actions in going to Ria still don't seem genuine to me. It's not what a real person would do if they had contact with the murderer of their family.     

P.S. I can understand Rudolfo's decision to send Jin Li and Jakob to Ria because, from his perspective, Ria and Machtvolk haven't harmed 'his' family. But, Jin's family has been grievously harmed by Ria and the Y'Zirites. And, even if Jin believes that Ria and her people will protect her son and herself, it doesn't seem plausible for Jin to accept the hospitality of the murderer of her family.

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I was wondering this myself!  I just kind of felt like Jin Li had been off on these missions for her father for so long that in a way she has been kind of distanced from all this family.  However, what a brutal personal attack for her anyway!  I cannot imagine she'd put herself near Ria without the intent of killing her.

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Karen POV:

I am with you on this sentiment.  What I couldn't believe was how docile she was about going, given the family history!  The same goes for Winter.  Question?  Are women basically treated like Chattel in this society?  Here we are talking the Mother of the "savior" figure and a Queen (even if she has been disposed).  Both should have been given a voice.  Boy does this play into the historical attitudes towards women in the early middle ages and definitely the "church's" attitude towards them during this same time period.  Oh the innuendos and complexities buried within :-). 

My question about Winters is:  Do you think it is possible that she could have acquiesed about going because she had her own agenda?  And this was a great cover for going back home to get a lay of the land?  We are back to Nadine's first quote: "Nothing is as it seems"

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Up until the point where Jin Li agreed to accept Ria's invitation to visit the Machtvolk lands I would have told you that women definitely aren't chattel in this series. Jin Li seemed to make her own decisions and act accordingly. But, there's really no explanation concerning her decision process when it comes to her agreement to seek asylum with Ria and Machtvolk. All we really have is some vague statement from her about gathering intelligence. But, her emotional turmoil about her family and how her son benefited from their pain/suffering/death just seems to contradict her later decision to go to Ria. 

I believe Winters agreed to accompany Jin Li because she feels she owes Jin Li and Rudolfo and thinks her superior knowledge of her people will benefit Jin Li in intelligence gathering. But, at least Winters shows inner animosity toward Ria. At least Winters wants to kill her and has to practice with the knife to calm herself.  

P.S. Of course, Jin Li initially considers her father's instructions, but she always factors in her own wishes/desires/decisions and, when her desires/decisions come in conflict with her father, (when she realizes he had Rudolfo's family killed as well as Rudolfo's friend Gregoric), she breaks from her father. 

[pen21]

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BryanThomasS wrote:

Several interesting thoughts from each of you.  My take is also the Hebda is the same as the one in Lamentation, Neb's father.  And it appears his disappearance back to Winwir there was not his death.  He appears to have been a co-conspirator in the city's destruction.  The question is: how does Neb fit in.  Did he bring Neb out of the city because he knew what was coming, leaving him there so he'd be safe, and go back to help destroy the city?  His intentions are a mystery and would obviously shed further light on Neb's role.

The explosion was quite well handled.  The growing humanity of Isaak continues to fascinate me.  I also like the evolution of Charles' feelings.  How he wonders why he's unable to feel anything for his mechanical children but then, after the explosion, discovers he does care about them, especially Isaak.  It's intriguing to find that there are modified versions he can't access.  Who has taken his work and now blocked him from the back doors he built in?

The further developments with the relations between Ria and Rudolfo's family are intriguing.  His acceptance of her offer to protect Jin and his son is an interesting twist, as is the arrival of mechoservitors determined to steal a book from the Marchfolk.  Who are they?  What will they do with it?  How are Jin and her son connected?

I am also anxious to learn more of the connection between Ria and Winter.  Different mothers?  What happened to her/them?  How did Winter know nothing about her?  How much did her father know?

Intriguing to know there are people among the Marshfolk who still support Winter as well.  What will come of that?  How many are there?  How do they keep it secret from Ria?

I loved the tunnel and temples discovered in the Ninefold Forests.  The idea of an underground world running beneath the above ground one we've gotten to know as the Named Lands is intriguing.  Who built it?  How ancient is it?  How far does it stretch?  Do underground networks stretch beyond the Ninefold Forests and the Marshlands?  How do the mechoservitors know about it?  Does Ria? 

The temple also implies deeper penetration of the old religion, which was hinted at earlier.  Now it is becoming a reality.  Rudolfo is being forced to take steps unheard of in the Ninefold Forests.  He is breaking tradition and setting new trends.  The mix of confidence and uncertainty he shows in doing so, combined with his increasing fear, is great character development, making him more real and relatable.

So much more here.  Very rich stuff.  One of the interesting things about the series is how well Ken does at leaving multiple questions hanging unanswered as he continues to pile on more and more.  When I write, I always keep track of the questions in each section, making sure to answer some as I go along, to satisfy the reader, while also keeping others hanging to keep them in suspense.  It's hard to remember which questions you haven't answered, even with just a few.  So I always have to keep track, and here's Ken having so many to juggle.  He does a masterful job of it.

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Just starting to go through the posts. Great section to read. Great breaking points Paul.

Bryan,

You made good points here. The explosion and how Ken handles that storyline. But finding the temple, just blew me away, right in the Ninefold forest.  That opens the Gyspies to having traitors they know nothing about. Who does know about this? I was thinking along with you, there are so many possiblitites. This is the third book and it is full of answers, but introduces more questions to keep me reading. Ken does a great job.

Luanne

[pen21]

So many posters have talked about Hebda.

To me Hebda has always been a father to Neb (real or adoptive father). Hebda was a protector to Neb. Was Neb destined to be at Windwir at that moment? In this section, Hebda is back to protect Neb. Is it a dream or real? After reading this section, I think Hebda is real. I am thinking that Hebda left Neb in Petronus's care at Windwir. Now that Neb is in 'trouble', Hebda has stepped in to protect Neb again.

Luanne

[pen21]

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salander_9277 wrote:

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Nadine wrote:

Note to Beth:

The Antiphon ARC does not have any maps. Will the published copy of Antiphon have a map? And will it have more information then the map in Canticle?

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Oh this is a good question.  I do want to note that the maps on the Nook are so small I really can't see much of what it says on the map and so I'm not sure if the e-book versions can be adjusted in the future to enlarge the map for readers or not.  Maybe if the maps were available online?  I just know I felt a bit sad when I could hardly view the map.

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I have noticed this issue with the nook also. Drawings are also miniscule. I hope they work on this problem. I end up at a bookstore just to look at maps or drawings.

Luanne

[pen21]

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Nadine wrote:

Wow! The back cover of the ARC says it all “Nothing is as it seems to be.”

Where to start.  (Good section breaks, Paul)

Chapter 7 Jin Li Tam POV

We have Lynnae, Lysias and the River Woman standing together joined just before the explosion by a mysterious and out-of-place young man.

Well some of us have been a bit suspicious of these three in the past postings. Lynnae because she coincidentally seemed to show up as a wet nurse to Jakob, Lysias (I think this was your suspicion Luanne) since he seems to switch loyalties, and the River Woman because she mixed the potions that got Jin Li Tam pregnant to begin with, the potions that supposedly kept Jakob alive (or could have kept him sick.) and also delivered him.

I do not think that the mechoservitor that shielded Jin and Jakob was Isaak. He was too badly damaged to be able to whisper in her ear “Safe” and I don’t think Jin saw him, only heard him. Also Isaak was not found near Jin. I think we have a magicked mechoservitor but from what group I haven’t the foggiest.

I also find it curious that Isaak was damaged in this blast but survived the destruction of Windwir.

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Nadine,

You know I have always been suspicous of Lysias. The placement of Lynnae, Lysias, the River Woman and the unknown man just jumped out at me. I agree with your thinking of them manipulating what is happening. but who would they be working with?

I really like your thinking of Isaak and another mechoservitor during the bomb scene. So who else wants to protect Jin and Jakob, could it be Ria sending a mechoservitor? She is the one that comes to mind right now, but it doesn't feel right.

Luanne

[pen21]

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dalnewt wrote:

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Nadine wrote:

Melissa wrote:

I kind of don't think so.  I am just not sure how these Li Tam family members got to this side of the world.  ....  And Vlad Li Tam made a point of mentioning at the end of Lamentation that he took ALL his family EXCEPT his 42nd daughter, Jin Li Tam.  So has someone been taking the Li Tam family  members over the years past, when Vlad thought they where dead to bring them to this side?

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Another good point. Vlad knew all his children and grandchildren by name and they only did what he told them to do. That was the nature of the Tam family. So Vlad wasn't aware of this group. Your theory about them having been dead and brought back to life to serve another purpose seems far out, but who knows. "Nothing is as it seems to be."

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This Tam daughter's death could have been faked, (by the Preservation for the Society of Light and/or by that daughter herself with help from Mal and his network), in order to explain her absence from Vlad's family. In the earlier books, Vlad notes that he has lost sons and daughters in service to the light. So, maybe he and his family believes that this daughter died. She apparently knows she's Vlad's daughter and speaks Landish. Plus, she bears a striking resemblance to Jin Li Tam. On the other hand, she covered with healed scars, is fully versed in the Y'Zirite gospels/practices and has become a member of the Honor Guard of the Crimson Empress indicating that she's been absent from Vlad's family and the Named Lands for years if not decade(s).    

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Lots of thoughts on Li Tam's and the woman Neb finds. I am still not sure. The ability to bring back to life does introduce so many possibilties.

Right now I am thinking that she turned Neb over and stole the silver moon crescent for her own use. Who she will give the silver moon crescent to, I am not sure. But she did know what it was and valued it more than Neb.

Luanne

[pen21]

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Nadine wrote:

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Melhay wrote:

I have a really far out thought.  After reading page 121 I wondered are teh Lunists the Light?

With the name of the book given to Isaak and the name of the dream book of the Kings... Tertius's Exegesis of Select Lunar Prophecies As Recorded in the Book of Dreaming Kings

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Nadine: Oh, you are good, Melissa!

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Then also reading page 124, when Petronus finds the woman that the metal men killed.  It made me think that there is a different Y'Zirite, as we have discussed a few times.  But I am wondering if the Lunists are affiliated with the Y'Zirite movement.  Maybe they are the ones from down far south.

But the thoughts started to click with reading of the last passage we have of Petronus here in this section.  Page 166.

I also went back and skimmed through the Weeping Czar.  I was wondering if the Lunarists are Y'Zirites also.  A different name used for a different time?  The Lunarists seemed to emerge from the Lunar Expedition, in which the first daughter was brought back to "earth" tortured and died.  They seem to have started around this time.  They believed in the "moon" wizards and used the name Lunar due to the "Lunar Expedition".  In time as they wizards name became known then they would be called Y'Zirites.

Just a thought...

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Nadine: And a good one! I can see why you are the champ. And congratulations on passing 2,000 laurels!

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Melissa,

Congratulations on over 2000.  You are champ because of ideas like this.

The Lunarists, how could I forget them. Your way out theory doesn't sound way out to me.  You spread out the logic for me to follow. I think I will be reading that Weeping Czar again.

Luanne

[pen21]

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flouncyninja wrote:

I really enjoyed the explanation of why Isaak is so different and how he's managed to create a personality through the fusing of his scrolls to the firestone that powers him.  I wonder if similar alterations have caused the older mechs to have similar personality changes or if the dream is just so much bigger that it affected them from the inside out.  And now Isaak has the dream, more or less embedded into his system through the scroll and he's going to search for his cousins.  Won't this lead him past the exploration team that Rodolfo has searching thourgh the mountains and will he approve to letting Isaak just disappearing underground?

Leslie

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Leslie,

That was a really good piece on Isaak that was presented in this section. I so agree with you. Isaak is presented as so human, like a young adult trying to find out the answers to the ultimate question. That was just a great piece of writing. Isaak has always been a special character for me, but this made him the character you will remember.

Luanne

[Nadine]

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krb2g wrote:

Wow! What a section--from the moment of the attack during the library dedication, I knew we were going to be in for a rough ride. Who's the strange man that Jin Li Tam notices?

What's Brother Hebda's stake in all of this? I'm increasingly skeptical of/intrigued by the old Androfrancine order since Petronous, who was Pope, seems to have been in the dark about some of the order's most relevant (at least to the world that continues after the destruction of Windwir) projects. I feel like we're unpeeling an onion here--for every question that becomes more clear, several new layers of mystery pop up.

Nadine mentioned this on the thread for part 1, but after this section the connection between music and numbers seems even more important.

Isaak also seems more human--he's set up to potentially die of a heart attack--but also human in a strange way in that the reason his power source (in some ways akin to the heart) cannot be replaced is that it's tangled in his memory scrolls (which I'm reading as analogous to the brain). So he's now like a man who can't get a heart transplant because he'll lose his memory.

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Nadine: When I read your post on Isaak, a terrible thought occurred to me. Isaak is going to heroically sacrifice himself at the end of the series! I'm really getting so attached to Isaak and if Ken has him die I will cry!

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I was really happy to see that some of the Marshers are still loyal to Winters, though Jin Li Tam and Jakob's visit there struck me as a risky choice as well.

I'm definitely going to read the short stories next, but I'm not sure I'll be able to wait a week to read the next chunk of chapters!

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Nadine: We usually start reading the next section around Wednesday so we are ready to start posting for the next section on Sunday or Monday.

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[pen21]

Neb is being called an abomination. I have toyed with the parentage being the reason, a mix of the different factions or religions in this series. But I keep coming back to him being an abomination because of what his 'destiny' has planned for him. As Rudolfo and Jin have found that Jakob is the Child of Promise. I think there are stories or prophecies about the Abomination Neb Homeseeker. This is just what keeps popping into my brain. Is Neb a savior of some sort?

Luanne

[pen21]

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Nadine wrote:

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krb2g wrote:

Wow! What a section--from the moment of the attack during the library dedication, I knew we were going to be in for a rough ride. Who's the strange man that Jin Li Tam notices?

What's Brother Hebda's stake in all of this? I'm increasingly skeptical of/intrigued by the old Androfrancine order since Petronous, who was Pope, seems to have been in the dark about some of the order's most relevant (at least to the world that continues after the destruction of Windwir) projects. I feel like we're unpeeling an onion here--for every question that becomes more clear, several new layers of mystery pop up.

Nadine mentioned this on the thread for part 1, but after this section the connection between music and numbers seems even more important.

Isaak also seems more human--he's set up to potentially die of a heart attack--but also human in a strange way in that the reason his power source (in some ways akin to the heart) cannot be replaced is that it's tangled in his memory scrolls (which I'm reading as analogous to the brain). So he's now like a man who can't get a heart transplant because he'll lose his memory.

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Nadine: When I read your post on Isaak, a terrible thought occurred to me. Isaak is going to heroically sacrifice himself at the end of the series! I'm really getting so attached to Isaak and if Ken has him die I will cry!

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I was really happy to see that some of the Marshers are still loyal to Winters, though Jin Li Tam and Jakob's visit there struck me as a risky choice as well.

I'm definitely going to read the short stories next, but I'm not sure I'll be able to wait a week to read the next chunk of chapters!

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Nadine: We usually start reading the next section around Wednesday so we are ready to start posting for the next section on Sunday or Monday.

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Nadine,

How could you say that Nadine: When I read your post on Isaak, a terrible thought occurred to me. Isaak is going to heroically sacrifice himself at the end of the series! I'm really getting so attached to Isaak and if Ken has him die I will cry!.

I have been trying not to think about that. Shame on you!  

[dalnewt]

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Nadine wrote:

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krb2g wrote:

Isaak also seems more human--he's set up to potentially die of a heart attack--but also human in a strange way in that the reason his power source (in some ways akin to the heart) cannot be replaced is that it's tangled in his memory scrolls (which I'm reading as analogous to the brain). So he's now like a man who can't get a heart transplant because he'll lose his memory.

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Nadine: When I read your post on Isaak, a terrible thought occurred to me. Isaak is going to heroically sacrifice himself at the end of the series! I'm really getting so attached to Isaak and if Ken has him die I will cry!

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I wonder if Isaak will die because he sings something again? Perhaps he'll be forced to sing the Seven Cacophonic Deaths again. (perhaps to destroy this mysterious Y'Zirite Empire's force). Or, perhaps he'll die singing the response to the Canticle. Then again, Neb had a dream of Isaak singing something (perhaps the Canticle and its response) on the moon with him. So perhaps Isaak isn't destine to 'die'.

P. S. Perhaps singing the response to the Canticle will heal Issak's cracked heart.