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pen21
Posts: 3,648
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


Mountain_Muse wrote:

pen21 wrote:

I have been thinking of Hebda and Petronus as both working to oversee Neb. We have heard more from Hebda in the first 2 sections of Antiphon. Hebda has appeared to Neb and to Petronus. To me it was it time for Hebda to come back to take care of Neb. Hebda is now directing Petronus to help Neb. Is Hebda working alone to protect Neb? I don't think so. I think there is a faction that is looking out for Neb, taking care to protect him. I hope to find out what Neb's purpose in the Antiphon is soon. But I am thinking that we won't find out about Neb's family, his purpose, etc til the later books.

Luanne


 

Luanne,

 

I think you are spot on about this.  I am looking to see where Ken is going to take him.

 

Also, I have decided that I am going to pull back this next week and focus on going back and reading the last two books so I can get a complete picture.  Following and reading the bits and pieces as you all post has been to fragmented to pick up the true story line. So I am going to go back and do it the right way so I can fill in the blank places that are not making sense.  I am not gone ---- just catching up.  Will see you guys in a week or so.

Karen


 

 

Karen,

They are such good books, enjoy. It will help fill in story line.

Also you can help us out, it will be fresh in your mind.

The threads are here and one can post as they get to that section.

I even go back to old, old threads when I finally get to that book in my TBR pile.

So feel free to add your comments to the Lamentation and Canticle threads.

Luanne

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Mountain_Muse
Posts: 1,104
Registered: ‎06-09-2010
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167


pen21 wrote:

 

 

Also, I have decided that I am going to pull back this next week and focus on going back and reading the last two books so I can get a complete picture.  Following and reading the bits and pieces as you all post has been to fragmented to pick up the true story line. So I am going to go back and do it the right way so I can fill in the blank places that are not making sense.  I am not gone ---- just catching up.  Will see you guys in a week or so.

Karen

 

Karen,

 

They are such good books, enjoy. It will help fill in story line.

Also you can help us out, it will be fresh in your mind.

The threads are here and one can post as they get to that section.

I even go back to old, old threads when I finally get to that book in my TBR pile.

So feel free to add your comments to the Lamentation and Canticle threads.

Luanne


Thank you Luanne...If I have a real epiphany I'll pipe-up over here.

Karen

 

A really good book is much like an artichoke. As you peel back each page of the of the book, you get closer and closer to the succulent heart of the story.
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DSaff
Posts: 2,048
Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Altered perceptions seems to be appropriate for this section! It is very hard to figure out what is real and what isn't, which leads me to many questions.

 

Was JIn Li Tam"s journey with her son a mistake? I have a hard time trusting Ria and those around her, but am thinking that is how the author wants me to feel, so.....

 

What is going on with Isaak? I really like his character but think there is evil afoot here. He is close to the family and trusted, but with all the questions he is asking, I wonder how much of what he is doing is controlled by others. The scripts are unknown. Will he survive this or die because his "heart" gives out or because he fights the hold another has on him or.....?

 

Will Neb and Winters ever see each other again?The "sisters" appear to want that possibility closed forever.

 

What is truly leading Vlad Li Tam and is it harmless or harmful?

 

So many more questions, but it is time to read the third section.

DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


Mountain_Muse wrote:

pen21 wrote:

 

 

Also, I have decided that I am going to pull back this next week and focus on going back and reading the last two books so I can get a complete picture.  Following and reading the bits and pieces as you all post has been to fragmented to pick up the true story line. So I am going to go back and do it the right way so I can fill in the blank places that are not making sense.  I am not gone ---- just catching up.  Will see you guys in a week or so.

Karen

 

Karen,

 

They are such good books, enjoy. It will help fill in story line.

Also you can help us out, it will be fresh in your mind.

The threads are here and one can post as they get to that section.

I even go back to old, old threads when I finally get to that book in my TBR pile.

So feel free to add your comments to the Lamentation and Canticle threads.

Luanne


Thank you Luanne...If I have a real epiphany I'll pipe-up over here.

Karen

 


 

Also you can add the information to any of these threads if they add to our information bank as to what is happening now. I too think have to go back to the previous books (and I have read them several times), but I'm going to wait until the end of this book and garner the information I need to make my forward predictions. I am finding so much that happened in Lamentation and Canticle I overlooked because I did not realize the relevance at the time. Now it is all clicking into place. Ken has really set all the current events up in the earlier books.

 

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Mountain_Muse
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167


Nadine wrote:

 


Mountain_Muse wrote:

pen21 wrote:

 

 

Also, I have decided that I am going to pull back this next week and focus on going back and reading the last two books so I can get a complete picture. 

Also you can add the information to any of these threads if they add to our information bank as to what is happening now. I too think have to go back to the previous books (and I have read them several times), but I'm going to wait until the end of this book and garner the information I need to make my forward predictions. I am finding so much that happened in Lamentation and Canticle I overlooked because I did not realize the relevance at the time. Now it is all clicking into place. Ken has really set all the current events up in the earlier books.

 


Nadine,

 

I, too, am guilty of going back to re-read a book several times.  There are one or two that I have wore out and had to replace, they have been re-read so many times....This series smacks of the reader's addiction.--- "Now how did I miss that?"

A really good book is much like an artichoke. As you peel back each page of the of the book, you get closer and closer to the succulent heart of the story.
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PeteyParker
Posts: 24
Registered: ‎07-02-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

I finally had time to finish Section 2 which quite literally I see started with a bang heh.

 

I don't recall who said it in the first section discussion but I see they were correct in thinking that Hebda was still among the living.

 

The speculation of Neb being part of another world is an interesting take and would certainly make sense considering that some view him as an "abomination" I have to say that it wasn't something I thought of (although I seemed to have missed the significance of the different colored moons somewhere in my readings)

 

 

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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


PeteyParker wrote:

I finally had time to finish Section 2 which quite literally I see started with a bang heh.

 

I don't recall who said it in the first section discussion but I see they were correct in thinking that Hebda was still among the living.

 

The speculation of Neb being part of another world is an interesting take and would certainly make sense considering that some view him as an "abomination" I have to say that it wasn't something I thought of (although I seemed to have missed the significance of the different colored moons somewhere in my readings)

=======================

 

You didn't miss anything. We really don't know yet. Many of us have speculated that blue-green smaller moon is the "moon" much like ours only inhabitable because of the efforts of the Younger Gods. The wizard Raj Y'Zir and his daughters lived there in The Weeping Czar story. The larger brownish "moon" might be the "earth," the planet of the Named Lands, as seen from the "moon". This Blue-Green small moon might be the "home" of the Marsh folks and Neb's and Winter's dreams takes them to this moon where they view the big brownish one.

 

 


 

 

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PeteyParker
Posts: 24
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


Nadine wrote:

 


PeteyParker wrote:

I finally had time to finish Section 2 which quite literally I see started with a bang heh.

 

I don't recall who said it in the first section discussion but I see they were correct in thinking that Hebda was still among the living.

 

The speculation of Neb being part of another world is an interesting take and would certainly make sense considering that some view him as an "abomination" I have to say that it wasn't something I thought of (although I seemed to have missed the significance of the different colored moons somewhere in my readings)

=======================

 

You didn't miss anything. We really don't know yet. Many of us have speculated that blue-green smaller moon is the "moon" much like ours only inhabitable because of the efforts of the Younger Gods. The wizard Raj Y'Zir and his daughters lived there in The Weeping Czar story. The larger brownish "moon" might be the "earth," the planet of the Named Lands, as seen from the "moon". This Blue-Green small moon might be the "home" of the Marsh folks and Neb's and Winter's dreams takes them to this moon where they view the big brownish one.

 

 


 

 


 

Gotcha. Thanks. I really need to read that Weeping Czar story that was linked to before.

 

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All-Things-Stephen-King
Posts: 29
Registered: ‎05-17-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Hey Everyone,

 

Someone might have already thought of this, but here goes anyway.  What does everyone think of Winters being this "Crimson Empress" that is being talked about by everyone?  I just find it interest and curious that every time Ria mentions the Empress, she gives this almost "knowing" look to Winters.  I can't help but notice that she is mentioned in most following sentences.  In addition, could that make Neb the bridegroom?  Just a quick thought from something I read over the weekend.  Take care.

 

Rob

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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


All-Things-Stephen-King wrote:

Hey Everyone,

 

Someone might have already thought of this, but here goes anyway.  What does everyone think of Winters being this "Crimson Empress" that is being talked about by everyone?  I just find it interest and curious that every time Ria mentions the Empress, she gives this almost "knowing" look to Winters.  I can't help but notice that she is mentioned in most following sentences.  In addition, could that make Neb the bridegroom?  Just a quick thought from something I read over the weekend.  Take care.

 

Rob


 

 

Rob, you know early on I thought that Winters might be the Crimson Empress as well. In fact, I think I figured almost every lead female has been the Crimson Empress at one time or other! :smileywink: But I'm glad you brought up this point of view, because it did get me thinking. The gospels are made up, people and their destinies are being manipulated, and nothing is as it seems. Aside from the "facts" that are being given to us and all the other characters, the union of Winters and Neb does make the most sense.

 

Just for grins here are some of my predictictions from Canticle:

-------------------------------

 

paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

----------

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

Ah, I just thought of two other female possibilities.
First, Ken had Ria mating with Mal. Must be more to that then just a pasing incident. Maybe Ria is pregnant and her child will be the Crimson Queen.

But the other possibility has my interest and I will have to do more research but it stikes me as a real possibility. A character introduced in Canticle with her own POV who somehow becomes "magiked" and dies "unseen and invisible" in a situation only witnessed by her husband Baryk. She is supposedly buried as an "invisible" person in a sack with only Vlad and Baryk as witnesses. Rae Li Tam may still live and could be the Crimson Queen.

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dalnewt
Posts: 2,725
Registered: ‎06-16-2009

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

[ Edited ]

 


All-Things-Stephen-King wrote:

Hey Everyone,

 

Someone might have already thought of this, but here goes anyway.  What does everyone think of Winters being this "Crimson Empress" that is being talked about by everyone?  I just find it interest and curious that every time Ria mentions the Empress, she gives this almost "knowing" look to Winters.  I can't help but notice that she is mentioned in most following sentences.  In addition, could that make Neb the bridegroom?  Just a quick thought from something I read over the weekend.  Take care.

 

Rob


 

When the first references to the Crimson Empress occurred in Canticle I didn't really know what to think. The Y'Zirites just seemed so bloodthirsty and untrustworthy that I thought perhaps it was just some sort of ploy or gambit. But, after reading Antiphon's first two sections, I became convinced of their sincere belief about the Crimson Empress. And, the blood magick'd women in the Wastes also tended to support the notion of a hidden Y'Zirite empire. Given the small snippets of Y'Zirite gospel revealed in the first two sections and the vague references to Jacob making the path straight for the Crimson Empress, I reached a conclusion that the Empress hasn't been born yet, but is expected. And, have further reasoned that perhaps the Crimson Empress will be a Wizard Queen who will be born or re-born into the World through some sort of blood magick. The Y'Zirites worship the wizards as gods, so it would make sense that they would want a wizard empress. I also formed a tentative hypothesis that perhaps Amal, the daughter of the Great Blood Wizard Raj Y'Zir whose spirit traveled to this world via the bargaining pool might actually be wizard spirit destine or planned to be reborn into the world.

 

 

As regards Winters, since Ria replaced her as the Queen of the Machtvolk I doubt that she would be considered a suitable candidate, by the Machtvolk, for their Crimson Empress. Further, I always associated Winters with the 'homeward dream' and Neb.

 

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dhaupt
Posts: 11,832
Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


Nadine wrote:

 


All-Things-Stephen-King wrote:

Hey Everyone,

 

Someone might have already thought of this, but here goes anyway.  What does everyone think of Winters being this "Crimson Empress" that is being talked about by everyone?  I just find it interest and curious that every time Ria mentions the Empress, she gives this almost "knowing" look to Winters.  I can't help but notice that she is mentioned in most following sentences.  In addition, could that make Neb the bridegroom?  Just a quick thought from something I read over the weekend.  Take care.

 

Rob


 

 

Rob, you know early on I thought that Winters might be the Crimson Empress as well. In fact, I think I figured almost every lead female has been the Crimson Empress at one time or other! :smileywink: But I'm glad you brought up this point of view, because it did get me thinking. The gospels are made up, people and their destinies are being manipulated, and nothing is as it seems. Aside from the "facts" that are being given to us and all the other characters, the union of Winters and Neb does make the most sense.

 

Just for grins here are some of my predictictions from Canticle:

-------------------------------

 

paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

----------

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

Ah, I just thought of two other female possibilities.
First, Ken had Ria mating with Mal. Must be more to that then just a pasing incident. Maybe Ria is pregnant and her child will be the Crimson Queen.

But the other possibility has my interest and I will have to do more research but it stikes me as a real possibility. A character introduced in Canticle with her own POV who somehow becomes "magiked" and dies "unseen and invisible" in a situation only witnessed by her husband Baryk. She is supposedly buried as an "invisible" person in a sack with only Vlad and Baryk as witnesses. Rae Li Tam may still live and could be the Crimson Queen.


 

I've been thinking about this too and here's what I think.

First I don't agree with Paul (sorry Paul) I don't think we know her yet.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Child of Promise, aka, Jakob supposed to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Queen, so that leaves out the Tams right.

 

Okay here's my guess, She's the offspring of Winters and Neb

 

That was me waaaaay out on a limb.

Correspondent
LadyMin
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎11-29-2009

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

dhaupt wrote:

 


Nadine wrote:

 


All-Things-Stephen-King wrote:

Hey Everyone,

 

Someone might have already thought of this, but here goes anyway.  What does everyone think of Winters being this "Crimson Empress" that is being talked about by everyone?  I just find it interest and curious that every time Ria mentions the Empress, she gives this almost "knowing" look to Winters.  I can't help but notice that she is mentioned in most following sentences.  In addition, could that make Neb the bridegroom?  Just a quick thought from something I read over the weekend.  Take care.

 

Rob


 

 

Rob, you know early on I thought that Winters might be the Crimson Empress as well. In fact, I think I figured almost every lead female has been the Crimson Empress at one time or other! :smileywink: But I'm glad you brought up this point of view, because it did get me thinking. The gospels are made up, people and their destinies are being manipulated, and nothing is as it seems. Aside from the "facts" that are being given to us and all the other characters, the union of Winters and Neb does make the most sense.

 

Just for grins here are some of my predictictions from Canticle:

-------------------------------

 

paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

----------

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

Ah, I just thought of two other female possibilities.
First, Ken had Ria mating with Mal. Must be more to that then just a pasing incident. Maybe Ria is pregnant and her child will be the Crimson Queen.

But the other possibility has my interest and I will have to do more research but it stikes me as a real possibility. A character introduced in Canticle with her own POV who somehow becomes "magiked" and dies "unseen and invisible" in a situation only witnessed by her husband Baryk. She is supposedly buried as an "invisible" person in a sack with only Vlad and Baryk as witnesses. Rae Li Tam may still live and could be the Crimson Queen.


 

I've been thinking about this too and here's what I think.

First I don't agree with Paul (sorry Paul) I don't think we know her yet.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Child of Promise, aka, Jakob supposed to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Queen, so that leaves out the Tams right.

 

Okay here's my guess, She's the offspring of Winters and Neb

 

That was me waaaaay out on a limb.


I'm thinking along the same lines that we don't know The Crimson Empress yet. I don't think it's Winters. She could be an offspring of one of the Tam's. I don't think marrying a relative would bother these people. The Tams have red hair, and crimson is red. And then again, crimson could be referring to red as in blood.

 

 

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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

LadyMin wrote:

I'm thinking along the same lines that we don't know The Crimson Empress yet. I don't think it's Winters. She could be an offspring of one of the Tam's. I don't think marrying a relative would bother these people. The Tams have red hair, and crimson is red. And then again, crimson could be referring to red as in blood.

 ----------------------------------------

 

And don't forget, she could also be a fiction, created to influence others like the gospels. Beth reminded us that Androfrancines were expert Behaviorists (and more and more, I think that splinter group of Androfrancines is behind all of this). Experts in manipulating people know that one of the best ways in through religion, and if you don't have a readily available religion, invent one.

Wordsmith
elaine_hf
Posts: 389
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

I've been thinking about this too and here's what I think.

First I don't agree with Paul (sorry Paul) I don't think we know her yet.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Child of Promise, aka, Jakob supposed to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Queen, so that leaves out the Tams right.

 

Okay here's my guess, She's the offspring of Winters and Neb

 

That was me waaaaay out on a limb.

 

 


I don't think that's out on a limb at all... I posted a thought in another section that I also initially believed that Winters could be the Crimson Empress. But I agree, the Child of Promise, already identified as Jakob, is to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Empress, which it seems could only be the unborn offspring of someone that we presumably are already familiar with. Winters and Neb? Seems very possible. Or, a child of Ria??? It would still serve the purpose of tying together different factions.Just another crazy thought here......

 

 

‎"Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God." -Bokonon
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dhaupt
Posts: 11,832
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


elaine_hf wrote:

I've been thinking about this too and here's what I think.

First I don't agree with Paul (sorry Paul) I don't think we know her yet.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Child of Promise, aka, Jakob supposed to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Queen, so that leaves out the Tams right.

 

Okay here's my guess, She's the offspring of Winters and Neb

 

That was me waaaaay out on a limb.

 

 


I don't think that's out on a limb at all... I posted a thought in another section that I also initially believed that Winters could be the Crimson Empress. But I agree, the Child of Promise, already identified as Jakob, is to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Empress, which it seems could only be the unborn offspring of someone that we presumably are already familiar with. Winters and Neb? Seems very possible. Or, a child of Ria??? It would still serve the purpose of tying together different factions.Just another crazy thought here......

 

 


 

Thanks elaine and even after finishing the novel I still think it. Only now I wonder about so many more things too. ;-)

 

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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


dhaupt wrote:

 


elaine_hf wrote:

I've been thinking about this too and here's what I think.

First I don't agree with Paul (sorry Paul) I don't think we know her yet.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Child of Promise, aka, Jakob supposed to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Queen, so that leaves out the Tams right.

 

Okay here's my guess, She's the offspring of Winters and Neb

 

That was me waaaaay out on a limb.

 

 


I don't think that's out on a limb at all... I posted a thought in another section that I also initially believed that Winters could be the Crimson Empress. But I agree, the Child of Promise, already identified as Jakob, is to be the bridegroom of the Crimson Empress, which it seems could only be the unborn offspring of someone that we presumably are already familiar with. Winters and Neb? Seems very possible. Or, a child of Ria??? It would still serve the purpose of tying together different factions.Just another crazy thought here......

 

 


 

Thanks elaine and even after finishing the novel I still think it. Only now I wonder about so many more things too. ;-)

 


 

 

I have also speculated that it could be an unborn child and I was thinking of Ria and Mal. But I ended up dropping that theory because for any such marriage to take place, we would have to jump ahead at least 15 years. So far, Ken has kept the story in fairly current time. So far, in three books, we have only moved forward two years.

 

But the prophecy is there. But prophecies have a habit of not being what they appear to be on the surface. They tend to be more ambiguous than factual.

 

Now the made-up Gospel of Ahm Y'Zir states:

 

"At the end of days, a Crimson Empress shall rise from the south and a Child of Promise from the north to reunite a kinship long severed. And their reign shall heal this broken earth and restore the Machtvolk to their rightful home." Antiphon page 149

 

"And it shall come to pass that the city of P'Andro Whym shall become a pyre and in the shadow of that pyre a child of great promise shall be born to make ready all people for the advent of the Crimson Empress and the Homecoming of House Y'Zir." Canticle pg 340.

 

Now to start analyzing some of these things is to look at them a different way. For instance we are making an assumption that the "city of P'Andro Whym" is Windwir. However, I believe I read somewhere that P'Andro Whym was from a city in the south of The Churning Waste.

 

Also the idea of "a child of great promise shall be born to make ready all people for the advent of the Crimson Empress". This could be more of a John the Baptist type. He could even be The Regent. Also, I believe in scriptures a "bridgroom" is not meant to be a husband in fact but a more symbolic.

 

I don't know where I am going with this yet, except that prophecies are more often meant to be misleading. Now, Ken wouldn't deliberately mislead us :smileywink: -- you bet he would!!!