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paulgoatallen
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ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 

 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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ABShaeffer
Posts: 24
Registered: ‎07-10-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Okay . . . is the Arch-behaviorist Hebda, Neb's father? Was the man masquerading as Hebda in Lamentation sent by the real Hebda to bring Neb to him in the waste? For what purpose? Who is Neb? He's special, but why? Because of his mother? Is she connected with the Crimson Empress? With House Y'Zir?

 

As far as prophecies go, if it's sequential, since we already saw "the thorn shall not sting him," we should expect to see, "nor the beasts of the beneath rend him, nor the ghosts in the water flee him." Will he encounter Vlad's ghost--perhaps his fallen moon, the one for whom the Canticle was sung?

 

So many questions.

 

It's taking a lot of willpower not to blaze through the book to find all the answers he'll give us in this volume.

Artists of all disciplines must be willing to go into the dark, let go control, be surprised. - Madeleine L’Engle
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vpenning
Posts: 71
Registered: ‎11-03-2009

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


ABShaeffer wrote:

Okay . . . is the Arch-behaviorist Hebda, Neb's father? Was the man masquerading as Hebda in Lamentation sent by the real Hebda to bring Neb to him in the waste? For what purpose? Who is Neb? He's special, but why? Because of his mother? Is she connected with the Crimson Empress? With House Y'Zir?

 

As far as prophecies go, if it's sequential, since we already saw "the thorn shall not sting him," we should expect to see, "nor the beasts of the beneath rend him, nor the ghosts in the water flee him." Will he encounter Vlad's ghost--perhaps his fallen moon, the one for whom the Canticle was sung?

 

So many questions.

 

It's taking a lot of willpower not to blaze through the book to find all the answers he'll give us in this volume.


 

 

My take is that Hebda IS Nebs true father. There are many references in the other books that make me believe that he is the son of Hebda that he could not actually acknowledge, but like others of the Order found a way to be a father, and spend time with his son.

 

The fact that Neb is called an abomination makes be believe that there are two different races of people. Those from the blue/green moon, and those from the brown. I think that is why the blood magicks harm some, but others have not problem taking and living.

 

The Matchvolk are those from the blue/green moon...those who were from the Y'Zir moon. It is mentioned in the Weeping Czar that Alam is accused of falling in love with a Matchvolk boy.

 

I wonder if when they came to hatch their revenge on Fredrico's people, that they had folks trapped on the Brown moon...and they are now needing a way back.

 

And, Neb is a product of BOTH people. That he is an abomination because he has the blood of both races. It is said by Hebda in this section that he is how he is because of what he is.....

 

He may be the Homeseeker, because as one with blood from both races, he can find the portal and the means to return the Matchvolk back to their own moon.....

 

OK, just my musings after reading the Weeping Czar (finally) this morning, and then this section directly afterwards....

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ToniWI
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Okay, I have got to get my hands on the Weeping Czar, maybe that will clear a few things up.

 

I agree that Neb is Hebda's true son.  But who else is he?  What if he, not Jakob, the Child of Promise?  

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pdxtrent
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎07-10-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Toni,

I think that we'll discover why Neb is an abominiation when we find out who his mother is.  I think she might be the younger god that awoke during the laughing madness and built the bridge.  Which would make Neb half younger god, if the younger gods were in fact something other than ordinary humans.

I need to reread Canticle, cause I don't remember if this awakened younger god is mentioned.

 

Hebda clearly has some connection to the arcane, and I suspect it is through her.

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vpenning
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


pdxtrent wrote:

Toni,

I think that we'll discover why Neb is an abominiation when we find out who his mother is.  I think she might be the younger god that awoke during the laughing madness and built the bridge.  Which would make Neb half younger god, if the younger gods were in fact something other than ordinary humans.

I need to reread Canticle, cause I don't remember if this awakened younger god is mentioned.

 

Hebda clearly has some connection to the arcane, and I suspect it is through her.


 

Interesting thought. Didn't consider the Younger God theory. Will have to muse on that.

 

Frequent Contributor
BryanThomasS
Posts: 53
Registered: ‎06-15-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Several interesting thoughts from each of you.  My take is also the Hebda is the same as the one in Lamentation, Neb's father.  And it appears his disappearance back to Winwir there was not his death.  He appears to have been a co-conspirator in the city's destruction.  The question is: how does Neb fit in.  Did he bring Neb out of the city because he knew what was coming, leaving him there so he'd be safe, and go back to help destroy the city?  His intentions are a mystery and would obviously shed further light on Neb's role.

 

The explosion was quite well handled.  The growing humanity of Isaak continues to fascinate me.  I also like the evolution of Charles' feelings.  How he wonders why he's unable to feel anything for his mechanical children but then, after the explosion, discovers he does care about them, especially Isaak.  It's intriguing to find that there are modified versions he can't access.  Who has taken his work and now blocked him from the back doors he built in?

 

The further developments with the relations between Ria and Rudolfo's family are intriguing.  His acceptance of her offer to protect Jin and his son is an interesting twist, as is the arrival of mechoservitors determined to steal a book from the Marchfolk.  Who are they?  What will they do with it?  How are Jin and her son connected?

 

I am also anxious to learn more of the connection between Ria and Winter.  Different mothers?  What happened to her/them?  How did Winter know nothing about her?  How much did her father know?

 

Intriguing to know there are people among the Marshfolk who still support Winter as well.  What will come of that?  How many are there?  How do they keep it secret from Ria?

 

I loved the tunnel and temples discovered in the Ninefold Forests.  The idea of an underground world running beneath the above ground one we've gotten to know as the Named Lands is intriguing.  Who built it?  How ancient is it?  How far does it stretch?  Do underground networks stretch beyond the Ninefold Forests and the Marshlands?  How do the mechoservitors know about it?  Does Ria? 

 

The temple also implies deeper penetration of the old religion, which was hinted at earlier.  Now it is becoming a reality.  Rudolfo is being forced to take steps unheard of in the Ninefold Forests.  He is breaking tradition and setting new trends.  The mix of confidence and uncertainty he shows in doing so, combined with his increasing fear, is great character development, making him more real and relatable.

 

So much more here.  Very rich stuff.  One of the interesting things about the series is how well Ken does at leaving multiple questions hanging unanswered as he continues to pile on more and more.  When I write, I always keep track of the questions in each section, making sure to answer some as I go along, to satisfy the reader, while also keeping others hanging to keep them in suspense.  It's hard to remember which questions you haven't answered, even with just a few.  So I always have to keep track, and here's Ken having so many to juggle.  He does a masterful job of it.

 

 

 

Author of "The North Star Serial" and "The Worker Prince."

www.bryanthomasschmidt.net
Reader 4
Shel29
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎06-14-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

I enjoyed your interpretation of this section.......I didn't remember it quite so vividly, thus the raising of many of your questions.  I think Ria and Winter have different Mothers and her father knows a lot more than we think.

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salander_9277
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎07-07-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

[ Edited ]

 

Oh man where do I begin.  Well we discovered the woman in the Wastes was a Tam.  Are her sisters Tams also, or is that more of a religious or bonded term for the women who accompany her?  Why are they cutting him?  To get information?
So Hebda is still alive I gather?  I was skeptical, thinking his spirit was somehow interacting with Neb and Petronus but not any more.  What is his role in this exactly?  Where is he getting his information from to pass on to Petronus?
Also, this Blood Guard of the Crimson Empress has me intrigued.  How is it they have a Tam woman (or more) in their midst?
The secret underground passages and the discovered Blood Temple are eye-opening.  How long has this resurgence been brewing?
I wish Isaak would share the dream and the reasoning behind his convictions to go help the other mechoservitors.  It's killing me with suspense!

 

To acquire the habit of reading is to construct for yourself a refuge from almost all the miseries of life. ~W. Somerset Maugham

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ToniWI
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

I found one line on page 119 that is interesting. Isaak's mechoservitor cousin says "Even now the antiphon is being shaped.". A definition of antiphon is according to the free online dictionary is: "A short liturgical text chanted or sung responsively preceding or following a psalm, psalm verse, or canticle." Throughout the story we read of a song, one that requires a response. We know the that Neb is carrying a silver crescent, the same one carried by the last weeping Czar? In it he hears music that is calling to him and is becoming clearer to him. We also know that this requires a response. This is what is known to us, but what does it mean! It's a thread that is carried throughout the story, but where does it lead us? Well that has been haunting me? Anybody have any ideas?
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Nadine
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

[ Edited ]

 


ToniWI wrote:
I found one line on page 119 that is interesting. Isaak's mechoservitor cousin says "Even now the antiphon is being shaped.". A definition of antiphon is according to the free online dictionary is: "A short liturgical text chanted or sung responsively preceding or following a psalm, psalm verse, or canticle." Throughout the story we read of a song, one that requires a response. We know the that Neb is carrying a silver crescent, the same one carried by the last weeping Czar? In it he hears music that is calling to him and is becoming clearer to him. We also know that this requires a response. This is what is known to us, but what does it mean! It's a thread that is carried throughout the story, but where does it lead us? Well that has been haunting me? Anybody have any ideas?

 

 

Toni I will not be responding on this thread until Sunday, August 8th but I can give you a general answer to your question straight from Ken [bold mine]:

 

-------------------------------

Nadine Wrote:

Ken, music is certainly a significant aspect of Psalms of Isaak. The destruction of Windwir comes about through a song (interestingly Tolkien created the world with a song) and the titles of all the books are basted on religious ritual songs: Lamentation, Canticle, Antipon, Requiem, and Hymn. I vaguely remember somewhere that you might have had some interest in music. Even though I know the titles have something to do ritual songs of some sort, I'm not exactly sure what they mean or what they relate to. About the only ones that have any specific meaning for me is that a Requiem is a Mass for the dead.and people sing Hymns in church all the time and that it seems positive but I don't know exactly what makes a song a hymn and not something else. Could you possible explain these terms?.

 

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kenscholes
Posts: 116
Registered: 10-17-2008
 
Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes 

Hi Nadine...yep, I'm also a musician.  I spent a few years as a roving religious singer/songwriter back in my clergy days.  Because I was going for that "otherworldly biblical epic" feeling, I wanted the titles to support that sense of the events being sacred and with high stakes.  Each title is tied to events in the books.  Lamentation speaks to the fall of Windwir and the grief it creates.  A canticle is a non-metrical song taken from a biblical text other than the Psalms and an antiphon is a response to a canticle or psalm (in this case, a response to a canticle.)   You've nailed down requiem nicely.  And a hymn is a song of praise or thanksgiving.

 

There's a line near the end of the book, in Rudolfo's POV, where it says "And he saw how a lamentation could become a hymn."

 

I hope that's helpful!  There's much more info on the music terms out on the Great 'Net.  I'm not getting too meticulous about hidden meanings in the titles but each book will make reference in some way that will make sense within the context.

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Mountain_Muse
Posts: 1,104
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Nadine, Like Ken, I am also a musician who is steeped in both church and music history, especially the early periods when "the church" was all powerful and played lead in the politics of the "civilized" world. No wonder I am so drawn to Ken and this series.:smileyhappy:  Music was an intrical part of the church.  Music and worship were synomonous.    

 

What I see in the book and discussions so far is not so much a parallel be the Messianic Story, but deep lines to the inner politics of the various Orders within the Church of the middle ages.  (i.e.. The Franciscan Order and the Jesuit Order)  Both Orders were within the Catholic Church AND both were "protecting the truth", but there was a huge war within for power.   Meanwhile, there were sects from outside the "established" church who proclaimed that "the church" was hiding the truth and and sharing only what they wanted to be known, for the advancement of "the church".   Is this sounding familiar?  The church set out to squelch and destroy these voices of "change" or "false teachings",, hence the inquisitions.    Ken.....you are GOOD!!!! 

 

That is just on one level....but this is only one newbie layman's opinion.  Ken, one question for you.....did you get your degree through public university before entering the ministry, or did you attend seminary? 

 

I am looking forward to going back and reading books 1 and 2. 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------- Nadine Wrote: Ken, music is certainly a significant aspect of Psalms of Isaak. The destruction of Windwir comes about through a song (interestingly Tolkien created the world with a song) and the titles of all the books are basted on religious ritual songs: Lamentation, Canticle, Antipon, Requiem, and Hymn. I vaguely remember somewhere that you might have had some interest in music. Even though I know the titles have something to do ritual songs of some sort, I'm not exactly sure what they mean or what they relate to. About the only ones that have any specific meaning for me is that a Requiem is a Mass for the dead.and people sing Hymns in church all the time and that it seems positive but I don't know exactly what makes a song a hymn and not something else. Could you possible explain these terms?. kenscholes Author Posts: 116 Registered: 10-17-2008 ..Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes .... 03-08-2009 09:20 AM Hi Nadine...yep, I'm also a musician. I spent a few years as a roving religious singer/songwriter back in my clergy days. Because I was going for that "otherworldly biblical epic" feeling, I wanted the titles to support that sense of the events being sacred and with high stakes. Each title is tied to events in the books. Lamentation speaks to the fall of Windwir and the grief it creates. A canticle is a non-metrical song taken from a biblical text other than the Psalms and an antiphon is a response to a canticle or psalm (in this case, a response to a canticle.) You've nailed down requiem nicely. And a hymn is a song of praise or thanksgiving. There's a line near the end of the book, in Rudolfo's POV, where it says "And he saw how a lamentation could become a hymn." I hope that's helpful! There's much more info on the music terms out on the Great 'Net. I'm not getting too meticulous about hidden meanings in the titles but each book will make reference in some way that will make sense within the context. ........Report Abuse to a Moderator (34 Views) .................

A really good book is much like an artichoke. As you peel back each page of the of the book, you get closer and closer to the succulent heart of the story.
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Mountain_Muse
Posts: 1,104
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Toni & Vpenning,

 

I think I have to agree with Pdxtrent.  If Ken is sticking with the "historical " basis, which he seems to be, then it would stand to reason that Neb would be the son of a human and a younger god.   In greek mythology they referred to the younger gods as demi-gods.  The demi-gods were famous for sneaking down to earth and mating with humans.  In ancient religious context, there is a consistant reference to the "angels", "gods", "nephilim", etc marrying the daughters of men.  It can be found in the texts dating back to the ancient Egyptian, Ugaritic, Acadian, other texts of the most ancient religious references.  I would need to go back and research to review what special abilities the children of these "marriages" had, but they were "set apart". 

Just thinking....has anyone thought about the potentiality of Winter and Neb getting back together and that union creating the Scarlett Empress?  Just a thought.

 

 

pdxtrent wrote:

Toni,

I think that we'll discover why Neb is an abominiation when we find out who his mother is.  I think she might be the younger god that awoke during the laughing madness and built the bridge.  Which would make Neb half younger god, if the younger gods were in fact something other than ordinary humans.

I need to reread Canticle, cause I don't remember if this awakened younger god is mentioned.

 

Hebda clearly has some connection to the arcane, and I suspect it is through her.

A really good book is much like an artichoke. As you peel back each page of the of the book, you get closer and closer to the succulent heart of the story.
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Mountain_Muse
Posts: 1,104
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Hey everyone,

I need to correct my previous post.  According to Greek Mythology, Neb would be considered a demi-god.  That said.....I've got more reading and thinking to do. 

A really good book is much like an artichoke. As you peel back each page of the of the book, you get closer and closer to the succulent heart of the story.
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Nadine
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

[ Edited ]

 

Great information. But is this all speculation based on the fact that Neb is referred to as an "abominiation"? Or have I missed something in my reading up to page 167? Could you please reference your speculation?

 

"awakened younger god"?

 


Mountain_Muse wrote:

Toni & Vpenning,

 

I think I have to agree with Pdxtrent.  If Ken is sticking with the "historical " basis, which he seems to be, then it would stand to reason that Neb would be the son of a human and a younger god.   In greek mythology they referred to the younger gods as demi-gods.  The demi-gods were famous for sneaking down to earth and mating with humans.  In ancient religious context, there is a consistant reference to the "angels", "gods", "nephilim", etc marrying the daughters of men.  It can be found in the texts dating back to the ancient Egyptian, Ugaritic, Acadian, other texts of the most ancient religious references.  I would need to go back and research to review what special abilities the children of these "marriages" had, but they were "set apart". 

Just thinking....has anyone thought about the potentiality of Winter and Neb getting back together and that union creating the Scarlett Empress?  Just a thought.

 

 

pdxtrent wrote:

Toni,

I think that we'll discover why Neb is an abominiation when we find out who his mother is.  I think she might be the younger god that awoke during the laughing madness and built the bridge.  Which would make Neb half younger god, if the younger gods were in fact something other than ordinary humans.

I need to reread Canticle, cause I don't remember if this awakened younger god is mentioned.

 

Hebda clearly has some connection to the arcane, and I suspect it is through her.


 

 

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Nadine
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Note to Beth:

The Antiphon ARC does not have any maps. Will the published copy of Antiphon have a map? And will it have more information then the map in Canticle?

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salander_9277
Posts: 108
Registered: ‎07-07-2010

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


Nadine wrote:

Note to Beth:

The Antiphon ARC does not have any maps. Will the published copy of Antiphon have a map? And will it have more information then the map in Canticle?


 

Oh this is a good question.  I do want to note that the maps on the Nook are so small I really can't see much of what it says on the map and so I'm not sure if the e-book versions can be adjusted in the future to enlarge the map for readers or not.  Maybe if the maps were available online?  I just know I felt a bit sad when I could hardly view the map.

 

To acquire the habit of reading is to construct for yourself a refuge from almost all the miseries of life. ~W. Somerset Maugham

http://greatexpectationsbookreview.blogspot.com
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cmmn
Posts: 29
Registered: ‎07-02-2009

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

I find Winter's dream in chapter 12 facinating.  It seems to be the same type of dreaming Neb had when he touched the stone in the Tam sister's bag.  A metal man told both that they shouln't be there.  Now, she too hears the song that "requires a response".

Author
kenscholes
Posts: 136
Registered: ‎10-17-2008

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

Wow.  Some impressive speculation.  It's an interesting experence for me to watch you all guess at something that is so intrinsically just known to me.  And I really appreciate the post about the inner politics of church history.  I studied history at Western Washington University and have a B.A. in it.  My unofficial emphasis was church history in Europe, the Americas, Africa, and Asia. 

 

And happy to answer the other question about my background.  I started early in the ministry in small fundamentalist churches, preaching in my late teens. I was licensed as a Baptist minister by 20 based on "showing evidence of my call."  At 24, I was ordained and pastored a small church in Bellingham, WA while I finished my B.A.  The plan had been to go to seminary at a satellite campus in Portland but in the midst of my last year at WWU, I started my long, slow crawl away from that life.  So I never ended up going to seminary.  I started running nonprofit organizations and started writing short stories again.

 

Now, holler if I missed any questions.  I'll be back tomorrow.

 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 2, Altered Perceptions: page 88-167

 


ABShaeffer wrote:

Okay . . . is the Arch-behaviorist Hebda, Neb's father? Was the man masquerading as Hebda in Lamentation sent by the real Hebda to bring Neb to him in the waste? For what purpose? Who is Neb? He's special, but why? Because of his mother? Is she connected with the Crimson Empress? With House Y'Zir?

------------------------------------------------------

Nadine: I always thought from the beginning that Hebda survived and that all this was set up so Neb would have a tramatic experience. I figured he had not really returned to Winwir. But later on I've been wondering if he was the one who triggered, Isaak.

------------------------------------------------

 

As far as prophecies go, if it's sequential, since we already saw "the thorn shall not sting him," we should expect to see, "nor the beasts of the beneath rend him, nor the ghosts in the water flee him." Will he encounter Vlad's ghost--perhaps his fallen moon, the one for whom the Canticle was sung?

------------------------------

Nadine: Good thought.

------------------------

 

So many questions.

 

It's taking a lot of willpower not to blaze through the book to find all the answers he'll give us in this volume.

----------------------------

Nadine: Me too but the story is so rich that there is a lot to dig out that is easily missed on a quick reading. There are also a lot of threads running through the story and I want to keep them all in sorted out. In the long run, I think that will pay off. I have read the previous books several times and each time I keep finding more that I've missed.

---------------------------------