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pen21
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

 


Melhay wrote:

As for Isaak being gone. I don’t think he can be. He has to still be around in one way or another. As mentioned the series is named after him. He went down with the Watcher, and yes they are made of different metals (or so we are lead to believe). But at the end of the section on page 363 it is mentioned that the Watcher is still alive.

“…His hand throbbed from where he’d thrust it into the boiling pool, and he felt the kin-raven still clutched in it. With his last conscious thought, Neb cast about within the aether.

‘Isaak?’

But there was no answer as the gray became a dark that swallowed him. And this time, when Neb dreamed about the moon, the Watcher waited for him there, laughing down at him from the pinnacle of a tower that remained closed to him."

 

I have a couple of thoughts on this…

1) Could it be that the Watcher was a vessel for the Wizard King to watch and work through? That he is still at his tower and this is how Neb hears on the tower.

2) The Watcher machine was able to swim the Veins to be back at the moon. And maybe Isaak is here too.


 

 

I agree, I never thought Isaak was gone or dead. I think Isaak has a mission to complete. That mission might be on the moon. Isaak said he has been trained as a weapon and I think we will be seeing that happen in Requiem. Isaak is too crucial to the story to eliminate now. Ken would get a nasty post from me.

Luanne

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pen21
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

 


Melhay wrote:

Okay, I am still stuck on the Kin-wolf.  Don't ask me why.  But I really feel there is more with these beastly animals than just beast.

 

How is it that the kin-wolf by-pass Petronus, on more than one occasion? How do they recognize the Y’Zir marks? I still have a feeling they are controlled like the kin-ravens. There is some one in control of them, in order to know who to avoid and who to attack.


 

To me the kin-wolves must be more than beast to control who they attack. Would they also have some type of programming or be partially a mechoservitor? They are controlled beings. Also Aedric had them skinned and placed the pelts for the Watcher to see, I keep wondering what the significance of that was for Aedric to do that. Luanne

 

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kenscholes
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

I can answer that one, Luanne.  :smileyhappy:

 

It's Aedric's response to Page 217, Paragraph 4.   

 

 

 

 

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dalnewt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

What I remember about the kin-wolves from Canticle is that they are twice the size of timber wolves and are legend to have been bred by the Wizard Kings through blood magick. Because of the infusion of blood magick, they are more vicious than a regular wolf and were supposedly utilized by the Wizard Kings. They are thought to be close to extinction, but isolated wolves/packs still roam the wastes. With the return of the Y'Zirite religion and its practice of blood magick, the kin-wolves seem to be making a come-back similar to the reappearance of kin-ravens.  

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dalnewt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

Through the process of inductive reasoning, I've come up with a theory concerning these mysterious Y'Zirites from Y'Zir, the Crimson Empress and the real goal behind the Y'Zirite resurgence.

 

These are the facts I utilized.

 

1. Xhum Y'Zir initially unleashed the Seven Cacophonic deaths because his sons had been killed and, according to the Y'Zirite gospel, Xhum Y'Zir believed, "...[It] was better to wipe clean the slate and start anew than for men--and women--to live without the oversight of gods. (See Antiphon p. 267.)

 

2. Despite Xhum Y'Zir's goal to wipe out men and women because it's better to wipe clean the slate, he releases his Machtvolk servants and gypsy thieves into reserved lands behind the Keeper's Gate/Wall.

 

3. Despite the choirs of mechos who sang out Xhum Y'Zir's Seven Cacophonic deaths, pockets of people from the Old World survived and were led out the wastes beyond the Keeper's Gate to start a new life in the Named Lands. (Note, these survivors hid in known caves and other known protected places.) 

 

4. These mysterious Y'Zirites from Y'Zir also survived the Seven Capcophonic deaths with intact knowledge of ancient things, (like the practice of blood magick and  Frederico's behemoth as well as the Moon Wizard's staff, etc...). They also have/had knowledge of the Antiphon and Neb, scriptures/gospels that closely resemble the Machtvolk Y'Zirite gospel and a firm belief in the advent of the Crimson Empress and her (and presumably their own) preeminence on earth. 

 

5. These mysterious Y'Zirites are doing everything they can to stop the Antiphon and Neb, yet their Regent agrees to allow Winters any those Marshers/Machtvolk who believe in the 'homeward' dream to leave. This course of behavior indicates that these mysterious Y'Zirites don't really care that much about the Antiphon, they're focused on earth not the moon. But they nonetheless hunt Neb, the Crescent and the mechos forming the Antiphon presumably because their scriptures tell them too.

 

6. The Machtvolk Y'Zirites, probably in accordance with Regent Xhum's orders, are excavating Windwir to unearth the different elements of each of the separate death curses of the Seven Cacophonic Deaths. Further, there is legend to be an eighth Cacophonic death spell somehow hidden within the Seven Cacophonic Death spell.  

 

7. Xhum Y'Zir calls the ancient mecho 'his Watcher,' and the Watcher apparently dates back to the time of Xhum Y'Zir and the seven Wizard Kings.

 

8. Like all mechos, the Watcher's behavior and actions are determined by his scripting, which probably also dates back to Xhum Y'Zir.

 

9. We don't yet know who or what the Crimson Empress is, however, the Tam grandfather, who conspired with these mysterious Y'Zirites to bring about the Machtvolk Y'Zirite resurgence, believes/believed there is or will be a Crimson Empress and leaves instruction for the granddaughter who becomes the 'Great Mother' to go to Y'Zir and kill the Crimson Empress.

 

Rather than immediately revealing my theory, I want to ask any interested participants in these discussion to look at the above facts (and perhaps add to those facts) and come up with their own theory(ies). 

 

 

 

 

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pen21
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

 


kenscholes wrote:

I can answer that one, Luanne.  :smileyhappy:

 

It's Aedric's response to Page 217, Paragraph 4.   

 

 

 

 


 

Thank you, Ken. I get it now.

 

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dalnewt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

[ Edited ]

Since no one responded to my post above, I just want to reveal my thoughts about the Y'Zirite faith and Crimson Empress. 

 

Xhum Y'Zir undoubtedly anticipated the survival of some people from the then settled lands and perhaps even the survival of his sons' killer, P'Andro Whym. He apparently knew about the Younger God Whym because the knowledge of the abomination was imparted to the Y'Zirites, and Xhum Y'Zir (or his mecho Watcher) was/is the logical source of that information. As reflected in the Y'Zirite gospel, Xhum Y'Zir wanted to wipe the slate clean, so he put into action a diabolical plan.

 

Xhum Y'Zir had seven years to plan out not the Seven Cacophonic Deaths (as well as a legend Eighth Cacophonic Death). In that time he could have also created a new Y'Zirite religion. And, to make sure that this religion had plentiful future followers, he founded or sent loyal young people, (perhaps related to one or more of his numerous wives), to a remote colony as well as releasing the Machtvolk who were always ruled by mysticism. Note, he also released the gypsies, possibly thinking that they also would be more amenable to the Y'Zirite faith because of their familiarity with blood magick practices.

 

I know this scenario borders on precognition by Xhum Y'Zir, but he knew his sons' killer, knew P;Andro was the leader of the scientism movement, and probably knew that P"Andro was sired by a Younger God. In this scenario Xhum Y'Zir could anticipate that the followers of P'Andro would eventually establish a city. Plus, he could have even left instructions (within the Y'Zirite scriptures or elsewhere) to plant the completed spell of the Seven Cacophonic Deaths in the Wastes or any place where agents of this future city would be likely to find it. 

 

In accordance with the theory, the purpose of the Y'Zirite religion is not to heal the land, but to ensure the death of every human. The Y'Zirites (both Machtvolk and those from Y'Zir) believe in a sadistic Utopia ruled over by a Crimson Empress. But, it's a trap. The Named Lands will be ravaged by a Y'Zirite Machtvolk army and/or death spells/plagues. Then, the survivors will be killed by a conjured Crimson Empress. She will be a goddess of destruction or some other nightmare (perhaps created through the legend Eighth Cacophonic Death). (Note, the Eighth Cacophonic Death was supposedly hidden within the Seven Cacophonic Deaths and created to revenge the rape and killing of Xhum Y'Zir's favorite wife.)       

 

Note, this hypothesis is pure speculation. Nonetheless, it is supported by the Y'Zirite gospel which states that Xhum Y'Zir wanted to wipe the slate clean because men and women should not live without a god. Moreover, it explains why Regent Eliz Xhum so assiduously tries to stop the Antiphon but agrees to allow Winters and her people to leave. In this construct, Eliz Xhum doesn't really care about the Moon and those Machtvolk who leave with Winters to follow that dream. He's focused on the earth and conquering the Named Lands. But, he does everything he can to stop the Antiphon because his Y'Zirite faith demands it. As stated above, it's a good bet that Xhum Y'Zir knew about Whym and the eventual creation of a future son of Whym. To prevent anyone from escaping his planned genocide, Xhum Y'Zir ensures, through the Y'Zirite faith, that the Antiphon will not succeed. 

 

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AnnahE
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

  Well, I am with the majority on this...I didn't see any of this coming.  My jaw kept dropping and I read faster and faster and had to go back several times.  I don't believe that Isaak is gone forever...it just can't be.  It will be a long wait for for the next installment but I am glad that it will be coming.  Thanks for a great read!

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dalnewt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

I guess everyone is expecting this next book to be full of armed conflict. It's entitled "Requiem" and the series has almost reached a critical point of open hostilities. But, honestly, I don't really know what's going to happen next. Also, I'm on tenterhooks in terms of Vlad's quest, Jin's mission in Y'Zir,  Rudolfo's untenable position, Neb's completion of the 'homeward' dream, and, closest to my heart, the fate of Isaak.

 

I wonder whether Rudolfo will be replaced in "Requiem" by this emissary from Y'Zir. As someone mentioned earlier, Ria apparently died of moonpox fever as did Ire Li Tam, and both apparently came back from the dead (or, were somehow put into a state where they looked dead).  And, if I recall correctly, Rudolfo's older brother supposedly died of moonpox as a child. Perhaps Rudolfo's older brother will actually be this 'emissary' and the 'transition' referred to in the kin-raven message will actually be a transference of the kingship to an elder brother previously thought deceased. 

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cmmn
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

What a cliff hanger ending.  When I read the last page I couldn't believe there weren't anymore pages.  It will seem like forever until the next book comes out.

Thank you for the wonderful world to escape to for awhile.

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paulgoatallen
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

 


cmmn wrote:

What a cliff hanger ending.  When I read the last page I couldn't believe there weren't anymore pages.  It will seem like forever until the next book comes out.

Thank you for the wonderful world to escape to for awhile.


 

All I can say is: Requiem is going to be AMAZING.

 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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pen21
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

Ken Scholes  posted from Hollywood on Saturday. Ken gave us a peek at his work in progress on the ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: General Discussion thread. The title is -
The Ship that Sailed the Moon
(Being the 100th Tale of Lord Felip Carnelyin)

Check it out.

Luanne

 

http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Fantasy-Science-Fiction/ANTIPHON-SNEAK-PEEK-General-Discussio...

Author
kenscholes
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

:smileyhappy:  I hope folks enjoy that little snippet over there.  But I want to assure everyone -- I'm not tackling that book until I've wrapped up Requiem and Hymn for you.  And I'll do my best to not keep you all waiting too long.  It was a profoundly hard year with the new twins, stacked on top of a profoundly hard previous year losing my parents and my nephew.  I've only just now become aware of how amazing it is that I was able to get Canticle and Antiphon wrapped up in the midst of all that loss.

 

I have my editor, Beth, to thank in part for that.  She was amazing at helping me understand and accept the impact of those deaths on my writing process and she was tenacious in gently pushing me to get the first three wrapped before the babies.

 

It really does take a village.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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salander_9277
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380


dalnewt wrote:

I guess everyone is expecting this next book to be full of armed conflict. It's entitled "Requiem" and the series has almost reached a critical point of open hostilities. But, honestly, I don't really know what's going to happen next. Also, I'm on tenterhooks in terms of Vlad's quest, Jin's mission in Y'Zir,  Rudolfo's untenable position, Neb's completion of the 'homeward' dream, and, closest to my heart, the fate of Isaak.

 

I wonder whether Rudolfo will be replaced in "Requiem" by this emissary from Y'Zir. As someone mentioned earlier, Ria apparently died of moonpox fever as did Ire Li Tam, and both apparently came back from the dead (or, were somehow put into a state where they looked dead).  And, if I recall correctly, Rudolfo's older brother supposedly died of moonpox as a child. Perhaps Rudolfo's older brother will actually be this 'emissary' and the 'transition' referred to in the kin-raven message will actually be a transference of the kingship to an elder brother previously thought deceased. 


 

You always amaze me with your attention to detail and the conclusions you draw!
To acquire the habit of reading is to construct for yourself a refuge from almost all the miseries of life. ~W. Somerset Maugham

http://greatexpectationsbookreview.blogspot.com
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dalnewt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

[ Edited ]

 


pen21 wrote:

 


Melhay wrote:

Okay, I am still stuck on the Kin-wolf.  Don't ask me why.  But I really feel there is more with these beastly animals than just beast.

 

How is it that the kin-wolf by-pass Petronus, on more than one occasion? How do they recognize the Y’Zir marks? I still have a feeling they are controlled like the kin-ravens. There is some one in control of them, in order to know who to avoid and who to attack.


 

To me the kin-wolves must be more than beast to control who they attack. Would they also have some type of programming or be partially a mechoservitor? They are controlled beings. Also Aedric had them skinned and placed the pelts for the Watcher to see, I keep wondering what the significance of that was for Aedric to do that. Luanne

 


 

 

I think the kin-wolves are controlled by blood magick in some way. According to Renard, the wizard kings were legend to have bred kin-wolves, through the use of blood magic, to be their viscous watchdogs. If so, anyone who bore the scent of blood magick would be immune to the wolves' aggression.

 

I believe that Aedric ordered the kin-wolves skinned and those skins folded and placed outside the Watcher's cave to harken back to the way the Watcher returned the folded clothes of the gypsy scouts who the Watcher killed and reduced to piles of meat. In other words, Aedric was telling the Watcher to go screw himself by leaving the pelts neatly folded outside the cave. 

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All-Things-Stephen-King
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

------------------------------------------------

So, does Winters not love Neb anymore? I think this has to be worked out before the end of the series. Neb will have to return to a resemblance of normal and him and Winters have to have their dream come true.

------------------------------------------------

 

I don't think we have to worry about Neb and Winters.  Their dreams always seem to have them together once they find their way home.  Also, during the most of this book, they seemed to have been floating apart in their feelings.  Neb was finding it hard to remember Winters face.  He was having some form of lost feelings towards Winters, especially when he was helping Jin supposed sister in the "Wastes".  But when he became aware of Winters in a distressed state and he had the means to try and come to her aide, it was his love for her that matter most.  I believe this going to matter significantly in the story to come. 

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dhaupt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

 


All-Things-Stephen-King wrote:

------------------------------------------------

So, does Winters not love Neb anymore? I think this has to be worked out before the end of the series. Neb will have to return to a resemblance of normal and him and Winters have to have their dream come true.

------------------------------------------------

 

I don't think we have to worry about Neb and Winters.  Their dreams always seem to have them together once they find their way home.  Also, during the most of this book, they seemed to have been floating apart in their feelings.  Neb was finding it hard to remember Winters face.  He was having some form of lost feelings towards Winters, especially when he was helping Jin supposed sister in the "Wastes".  But when he became aware of Winters in a distressed state and he had the means to try and come to her aide, it was his love for her that matter most.  I believe this going to matter significantly in the story to come. 


 

I agree

 

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BryanThomasS
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

Finally caught up.  Wow, what a whirl wind this last section was.  Talk about your building to a climax.  For anyone interested, here's my review of the book, which posts to my blog, Facebook, Twitter, and Goodreads.

 

http://bryanthomasschmidt.blogspot.com/2010/09/review-ken-scholes-antiphon.html

 

The last part of the book took off like a race.  Once Neb left to save Winter, everything which had been building up just exploded on the pages for me, and I loved it.

 

I loved the original SF element of metal men, and I love even more the element of the ship.  It reminds me a bit of the steampunk airships, and it will be interesting to see what happns with it.

 

It's intriguing the strength Jin has to go off with the regent and her child.  I wonder how many parents could take such a risk, and I think Ken's leaving some of those thoughts a mystery to us is very helpful to keep us propelled toward the next book.

 

I found it interesting the Rudolfo really started to take a lesser, back role in the last half of this book.  He was such a major character in the first and second books, I hadn't expected that.  His alcohol problem perhaps is a result of him feeling slighted by the author.  (Just kidding, Ken)  No, I liked the fact that a character who had so often surprised us with his strength found a new weakness.  We saw it early on with his feelings toward his son, and it amazes me Ken could write so well about how a parent loves a child, when his own twins weren't born until right as he turned in the manuscript for "Antiphon."  I can only imagine how much strongly infused with emotions the scenes in the last two books will be.  Rudolfo's internalization here, along with his playing a role less as catalyst and more as defender is an interesting twist.  The results of the difficult, nontraditional choices he's having to make will be fun to watch.

 

Neb's growth is intriguing and yet also leaves me wondering.  I knew he was changing but saw the depth of it when he saw it himself, and the new distance Winter feels leaves me wondering whether Neb will also lose his love or they will find their way back together.  Yet another cliffhanger nicely handled.

 

I like the way Issak becomes so much more human throughout the course of the book, and how the humans almost come to consider him one of their own, certainly thinking of him like family.  We too have come to love him that way, and so I'm sure we'll all await news of his fate in the next book.  (Ken, stop reading this and get busy writing already!)

 

The spiders are an intriguing future threat as well.

 

The mystery of Vlad's future and the various role others in his family continue to play also has me guessing.  I liked the way his final scene tied in so well with "Weeping Czar."  It's a hint of the pieces coming together yet not enough that we have it all figured out.  Especially intruiging is the idea of Vlad as Frederico's son.  Is that a literal son or are all the people in the Named Lands his descendents?  We'll await that answer as well.

 

Petronus also seemed less of a catalyst in this book and his assignment to go along and help Neb foreshadows intriguing possibilities of what's to come.

 

Most intriguing and amazing to me was the depth of Winter's love for her people.  Taking on the knives herself, willingly, suffering the torture, and yet growing stronger from it, is amazing.  She has continued to grow through each event since she first appeared, and what lies ahead for her wandering band also foreshadows interesting possibilities.

 

That's the best summary of my thoughts so far on the last section I can come up with for now.  It's time to read yours.

 

Bryan

 

 

Author of "The North Star Serial" and "The Worker Prince."

www.bryanthomasschmidt.net
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dhaupt
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

 


BryanThomasS wrote:

Finally caught up.  Wow, what a whirl wind this last section was.  Talk about your building to a climax.  For anyone interested, here's my review of the book, which posts to my blog, Facebook, Twitter, and Goodreads.

 

http://bryanthomasschmidt.blogspot.com/2010/09/review-ken-scholes-antiphon.html

 

The last part of the book took off like a race.  Once Neb left to save Winter, everything which had been building up just exploded on the pages for me, and I loved it.

 

I loved the original SF element of metal men, and I love even more the element of the ship.  It reminds me a bit of the steampunk airships, and it will be interesting to see what happns with it.

 

It's intriguing the strength Jin has to go off with the regent and her child.  I wonder how many parents could take such a risk, and I think Ken's leaving some of those thoughts a mystery to us is very helpful to keep us propelled toward the next book.

 

I found it interesting the Rudolfo really started to take a lesser, back role in the last half of this book.  He was such a major character in the first and second books, I hadn't expected that.  His alcohol problem perhaps is a result of him feeling slighted by the author.  (Just kidding, Ken)  No, I liked the fact that a character who had so often surprised us with his strength found a new weakness.  We saw it early on with his feelings toward his son, and it amazes me Ken could write so well about how a parent loves a child, when his own twins weren't born until right as he turned in the manuscript for "Antiphon."  I can only imagine how much strongly infused with emotions the scenes in the last two books will be.  Rudolfo's internalization here, along with his playing a role less as catalyst and more as defender is an interesting twist.  The results of the difficult, nontraditional choices he's having to make will be fun to watch.

 

Neb's growth is intriguing and yet also leaves me wondering.  I knew he was changing but saw the depth of it when he saw it himself, and the new distance Winter feels leaves me wondering whether Neb will also lose his love or they will find their way back together.  Yet another cliffhanger nicely handled.

 

I like the way Issak becomes so much more human throughout the course of the book, and how the humans almost come to consider him one of their own, certainly thinking of him like family.  We too have come to love him that way, and so I'm sure we'll all await news of his fate in the next book.  (Ken, stop reading this and get busy writing already!)

 

The spiders are an intriguing future threat as well.

 

The mystery of Vlad's future and the various role others in his family continue to play also has me guessing.  I liked the way his final scene tied in so well with "Weeping Czar."  It's a hint of the pieces coming together yet not enough that we have it all figured out.  Especially intruiging is the idea of Vlad as Frederico's son.  Is that a literal son or are all the people in the Named Lands his descendents?  We'll await that answer as well.

 

Petronus also seemed less of a catalyst in this book and his assignment to go along and help Neb foreshadows intriguing possibilities of what's to come.

 

Most intriguing and amazing to me was the depth of Winter's love for her people.  Taking on the knives herself, willingly, suffering the torture, and yet growing stronger from it, is amazing.  She has continued to grow through each event since she first appeared, and what lies ahead for her wandering band also foreshadows interesting possibilities.

 

That's the best summary of my thoughts so far on the last section I can come up with for now.  It's time to read yours.

 

Bryan

 

 


 

Great review and summary.

 

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BryanThomasS
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Re: ANTIPHON SNEAK PEEK: Section 4, Bombshells!: page 265-380

Couple more thoughts:

 

Are they flying off in the airship to save/rescue Lesser Gods who are hiding out?

 

Seems like we have a theme from our culture here:  Secular belief system v. Religious one where the religious one is seen as extreme or fundamentalist and the secular one as more rational and reasoned

 

(Wonder where that came from, Ken?  LOL)

Author of "The North Star Serial" and "The Worker Prince."

www.bryanthomasschmidt.net