Reply
Reader-Moderator
liisa22
Posts: 606
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

 


liisa22 wrote:

OK-  I have to admit that I am just not getting into it. Is that because I havent' read the first two?  I don't usually do a lot of sci-fi/fantasy, But have read enough to enjoy some. Please tell me that it may be because I didn't read the others.  I feel like I am missing too much.  :smileysad:


 

 

ABSOLUTELY! Reading Antiphon without first reading Lamentation and Canticle, well, it would be like picking up The Lord of the Rings in the last book of the trilogy. You're missing EVERYTHING – the initial world building, the character development, the beginning of all of the plotlines, etc.

 

Please read Lamentation and Canticle first – I'll gurantee that you'll be into Antiphon then!  :smileyhappy:

 

Paul


 

OK, Thanks!  I will get ahold of those and read- then come back to read Antiphon!  

 

Reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body.
-Sir Richard Steele

http://bookreviewsbyliisa.blogspot.com/
Wordsmith
elaine_hf
Posts: 389
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!


liisa22 wrote:

OK-  I have to admit that I am just not getting into it. Is that because I havent' read the first two?  I don't usually do a lot of sci-fi/fantasy, But have read enough to enjoy some. Please tell me that it may be because I didn't read the others.  I feel like I am missing too much.  :smileysad:


 

 

ABSOLUTELY! Reading Antiphon without first reading Lamentation and Canticle, well, it would be like picking up The Lord of the Rings in the last book of the trilogy. You're missing EVERYTHING – the initial world building, the character development, the beginning of all of the plotlines, etc.

 

Please read Lamentation and Canticle first – I'll gurantee that you'll be into Antiphon then!  :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 

Well, I would beg to differ with you on this point. I haven't read anything in this genre for years, no - decades, and after signing on to this read I was a little afraid that I wouldn't be happy with this book. However, once I got into the thick of it, and accepted that I wouldn't know all of the background, I absolutely can't put it down! I spent last week helping my mother move and was concerned that I couldn't contribute anything to the Part II discussion (my mom can't access the internet from her old or new house, which is not such a bad thing in her case...), but now I'm just a few pages from getting into the discussion of the whole book. Reading fantasy for me is a little like having a dreamstone - you have to allow your mind to just flow with it, and see where it takes you. But I am most definitely going to pick up the first two volumes after this.

 

‎"Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God." -Bokonon
Inspired Wordsmith
krb2g
Posts: 289
Registered: ‎02-05-2008

Reading Order

I'm not as familiar with what I'm about to say as I could be, I suppose, but I have heard that one of the results of the 18th century practice of printing books in multiple volumes was that they weren't always read in order--you'd read the volume available to you--and then if you could find others, all the better. I may be out of line here, but it looks like the way this series is developing, it might be worth considering it as a five-volume epic, rather than five books in a series.
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

 


elaine_hf wrote:

liisa22 wrote:

OK-  I have to admit that I am just not getting into it. Is that because I havent' read the first two?  I don't usually do a lot of sci-fi/fantasy, But have read enough to enjoy some. Please tell me that it may be because I didn't read the others.  I feel like I am missing too much.  :smileysad:


 

 

ABSOLUTELY! Reading Antiphon without first reading Lamentation and Canticle, well, it would be like picking up The Lord of the Rings in the last book of the trilogy. You're missing EVERYTHING – the initial world building, the character development, the beginning of all of the plotlines, etc.

 

Please read Lamentation and Canticle first – I'll gurantee that you'll be into Antiphon then!  :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 

Well, I would beg to differ with you on this point. I haven't read anything in this genre for years, no - decades, and after signing on to this read I was a little afraid that I wouldn't be happy with this book. However, once I got into the thick of it, and accepted that I wouldn't know all of the background, I absolutely can't put it down! I spent last week helping my mother move and was concerned that I couldn't contribute anything to the Part II discussion (my mom can't access the internet from her old or new house, which is not such a bad thing in her case...), but now I'm just a few pages from getting into the discussion of the whole book. Reading fantasy for me is a little like having a dreamstone - you have to allow your mind to just flow with it, and see where it takes you. But I am most definitely going to pick up the first two volumes after this.

 


 

Actually there are several first-time readers starting with Antiphon who have said something similar. You can enjoy this book without having read the first two, which is a tribute to Ken for having struck the right balance between providing enough backstory in this book to satisy the new reader but not boring the reader who as read the previous two books. A good book should stand alone even if it is part of a series. But to play the game we play in this discussion group it is more fun to have read the other two.

 

 

Reading fantasy for me is a little like having a dreamstone - you have to allow your mind to just flow with it, and see where it takes you.

 

I'm with you there, Elaine. I'm something of a realist in my reading having been primarily a non-fiction reader. Learning to go with the "flow" of fantasy was a bit of adjustment. But once I learned to except the basic principles of the given fantasy world, it worked for me -- as long as the author remains consistant to the rules of that fantasy world. I also found it fun. Who really knows what is real anyway.

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Epic Series

 


krb2g wrote:
I'm not as familiar with what I'm about to say as I could be, I suppose, but I have heard that one of the results of the 18th century practice of printing books in multiple volumes was that they weren't always read in order--you'd read the volume available to you--and then if you could find others, all the better. I may be out of line here, but it looks like the way this series is developing, it might be worth considering it as a five-volume epic, rather than five books in a series.

 

 

I'm not strong on terminology or classification here, but in my head this seems like a five-volume epic. I tried tracking down a definition of an epic novel but it is difficult to pin down. Maybe this sums it:

 

a prose narrative that covers large events, such as war, and the lives and deeds of heroic characters

 

Or maybe this one says it better:

 

"The dividing line between a regular novel and an epic novel is not defined; like the infamous definition of pornography, you can only know it when you see it. Suffice it to say that an epic novel is much longer than the average novel and contains a great deal many more characters and subplots."

 

Any one have a better definition or can explain what Epic means to them?



Inspired Wordsmith
krb2g
Posts: 289
Registered: ‎02-05-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Epic Series

I would actually disagree with the idea that an epic must be a novel--although I've seen a lot of epic novels. I'd trace the epic in literature as starting with The Iliad and The Odyssey and going through to The Aeneid--all of which are poetry, as is Beowulf.

Some characteristics of the epic that I would identify as important are: 1) large scope, often in time or space (for example Odysseus's and Aeneas's journeys or the Trojan War); 2) starting in medias res (that is, in the middle of the action)--which as we get farther and farther into this story, we realize is definitely the case!; 3) the epic simile (introduced with velut or veluti in Latin--it's an extended metaphor comparing one type of behavior to another--just as [often some type of animal] does something, so do [often these soldiers] do something else)--this might be the one element of epic I'm not seeing so much of in this series; 4) noble characters, the dealings of gods, the affairs of state as important plot elements.

As far as literature goes, I study 19th century American novels (long, but not epic, except maybe Moby Dick)--so don't take this as a full or fancy definition by any means. These are just my thoughts after several years of study. If learning about a thing by studying its opposite appeals to anyone, there are lots of great mock-epics--I'd particularly recommend Tom Jones or Don Quixote.

Wordsmith
elaine_hf
Posts: 389
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

Actually there are several first-time readers starting with Antiphon who have said something similar. You can enjoy this book without having read the first two, which is a tribute to Ken for having struck the right balance between providing enough backstory in this book to satisy the new reader but not boring the reader who as read the previous two books. A good book should stand alone even if it is part of a series. But to play the game we play in this discussion group it is more fun to have read the other two.

 

 

Reading fantasy for me is a little like having a dreamstone - you have to allow your mind to just flow with it, and see where it takes you.

 

I'm with you there, Elaine. I'm something of a realist in my reading having been primarily a non-fiction reader. Learning to go with the "flow" of fantasy was a bit of adjustment. But once I learned to except the basic principles of the given fantasy world, it worked for me -- as long as the author remains consistant to the rules of that fantasy world. I also found it fun. Who really knows what is real anyway.

 


 

 

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone here! The one thing I might suggest to Ken is to consider some kind of list of the 'characters' in the beginning of each volume, and their significance. I realize that there are a few whose lineage is muddled or unclear in the first part of Antiphon, and you wouldn't want to put a 'spoiler' up front. But there were many instances where a little one or two liner about the person would have been very helpful. Also, as in The Lord of the Rings and other similar books, a map of the Named Lands and, in fact, all of the areas described would also help me to firm up the image in my mind. 

‎"Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God." -Bokonon
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

Elain wrote:

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone here! The one thing I might suggest to Ken is to consider some kind of list of the 'characters' in the beginning of each volume, and their significance. I realize that there are a few whose lineage is muddled or unclear in the first part of Antiphon, and you wouldn't want to put a 'spoiler' up front. But there were many instances where a little one or two liner about the person would have been very helpful. Also, as in The Lord of the Rings and other similar books, a map of the Named Lands and, in fact, all of the areas described would also help me to firm up the image in my mind.

==================================

 

Yes, I think a list of characters is now becoming essential. Dido on place names. We don't need anything specific about them but who they are. It should be in the appendix. I am actually starting to make up my own since I'm constantly looking up names so I get the reference and spelling correct and it is becoming tedious. If most readers end up having to do this, it really should be in the book. It is a small addition and would be well appreciated.

 

There is a map but it just doesn't happen to be in the ARC. Beth said it is the same map as was in Canticle. I think a map of a fantasy land is essential and enriches the immersion in the story. I am a map fantatic. I love to actually follow the characters and see where they are going and where they are located. But I would like to see more on the map. Where is that Blood Temple located? What are the names of all those ruins?

 

And as I mentioned earlier, I would like to see "The Weeping Csar..." in the appendix.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Correspondent
1archi1
Posts: 104
Registered: ‎07-07-2010

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!


liisa22 wrote:

OK-  I have to admit that I am just not getting into it. Is that because I havent' read the first two?  I don't usually do a lot of sci-fi/fantasy, But have read enough to enjoy some. Please tell me that it may be because I didn't read the others.  I feel like I am missing too much.  :smileysad:


 

I agree...it was so hard for me to get into it also.  At first I thought it was because I was trying to read it when my boys were awake and I couldn't focus, or that I'm not really a Si/fi reader but I think it was more that I had not read the first two books.  So I started reading Lamentation, and although it was slow going at first, I do have to say, that I am starting to actually want to get back to the book to find out what is going to happen.  Don't get me wrong, the metal birds and mechoservitors are way out there but I started opening my mind and I stopped saying, what are you kidding me, metal birds??? and I have found that it really is a good book.  I am hoping to finish up Canticle by this weekend so I can catch up on the Antiphon posts.  I think it just took time and no interruptions for me to really understand what was going on and to kind of think outside the box from what I normally read.  I am glad that I have stuck with it though because I would have missed out on a good book. 

:smileyhappy:
Contributor
tumbling_block
Posts: 16
Registered: ‎05-03-2010
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

I, too, have been having a hard time getting into the book.  I have Lamentations on my nook and think that it might be a good idea to start that.  But, I don't want to get behind on the posts.

Stacey

Distinguished Bibliophile
dalnewt
Posts: 2,725
Registered: ‎06-16-2009

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

[ Edited ]

I have to say the reading the first two books isn't a prerequisite to enjoying and understanding Antiphon. However, reading those first two books exponentially deepens one's understanding of the conflicts and mysteries as well as deepening one's appreciation for the manner in which the characters develop.

 

As applied to my own reading experience, I became totally invested in the fates of Rudolfo, Jin Li Tam, Petronus and Neb (Nebios) in Lamentation. And, in Canticle I totally became invested in the fate of Vlad Li Tam. Plus, the mystery of the Y'Zirite resurgence, (which reintroduced sadistic blood magick originally practiced by the Wizard Kings of the Old World), really intrigued me.

 

I previously posted a broad historical outline on the first page of the Antiphone General Discussion thread. Here's the link to that thread http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Fantasy-Science-Fiction/ANTIPHON-SNEAK-PEEK-General-Discussio.... Further, I would be happy to provide a list of the main characters for anyone who hasn't read Lamentation and Canticle.

 

Note, this series concerns the survival of Named Lands or a portion of the population of the Named Lands free from the sadistic blood magick practiced by the Wizards Kings of the Old World. Further, it's about the role of Neb in leading the Machtvolk/Marshers back to their home world on the moon, (which was made habitable by the Younger Gods brought earth and water to the moon following a cataclysmic war on earth during the Age of the Younger Gods/First World/Mechanical Age).

 

The history of the world in which thie books are set extends back to the time of metal men, metal birds and Younger Gods known as the Age of the Younger Gods a/k/a First World a/k/a Mechanical Age. There were two other periods of stable civilization following the First World known as the Time of the Czarist Empire/Age of the Weeping Czars followed by the Age of the Wizard Kings a/k/a Old World. The books are set in the Time of the New World, following the destruction of the Old World where Wizard Kings ruled the earth. Note, all this is reflected in my Broad historical outline.       

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

dalnewt wrote:

Further, I would be happy to provide a list of the main characters for anyone who hasn't read Lamentation and Canticle.

------------------------------------------------

 

Please do! I was about to start my own list. I've been scibbling down names here and there but now the cast of characters is becoming very long. If you start a list, the rest of us could add to it if we discover others.

Distinguished Bibliophile
dalnewt
Posts: 2,725
Registered: ‎06-16-2009
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

[ Edited ]

 


Nadine wrote:

dalnewt wrote:

Further, I would be happy to provide a list of the main characters for anyone who hasn't read Lamentation and Canticle.

------------------------------------------------

 

Please do! I was about to start my own list. I've been scibbling down names here and there but now the cast of characters is becoming very long. If you start a list, the rest of us could add to it if we discover others.


 

I'll start working on it tomorrow. Note, I'm not going to attempt to list all the characters, and I'm going to limit the list to only those main characters who have relevance to understanding Antiphon. (This 'Antiphon relevant' character limitation is partially to avoid unnecessary work and also to avoid the possibility of unintentionally revealing spoiler(s) with respect to the first two books.) Plus, I'm not going to list any characters who are newly introduced in Antiphon. Note, this decision to eliminate the newly introduced Antiphon characters is imposed to avoid spoiler(s) for those who are starting or will be reading Antiphon.

 

Moderator
dhaupt
Posts: 11,832
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: ARCS FOR ANTIPHON BY KEN SCHOLES! READ THIS THREAD, PEOPLE!!!

This is in response to the commenters who didn't read the first two books.

When I found out I was participating in Antiphon I got the first two books and read them and I have to say that if I hadn't I wouldn't have understood half of the thinking behind what was going on. There are so many clues in the first two books that help us understand the mind set of the characters, for example if you just picked up Antiphon you wouldn't have the history of the relationship and marriage of Jin and Rudolfo and really knowing where they were helped me to know why they are where they are now. Also you wouldn't know the story behind why Petronus is such an important part of this web of mystery or Neb and Winters, if I hadn't read the first two I would not know why Neb delayed getting to the Antiphon by healing Winters, I would have really scratched my head on that one.

So while Antiphon is a very strong story on it's own, yes, I think you do yourself and the series a disservice if you don't read it in it's entirety.

I'm sure (since I have to wait so long for the next installation) that I'll read all three before the next novel comes out because I'm sure by then I will have forgotten half the things that will make the next read a true treasure that I'm sure it will be.