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Nadine
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

OK, here is a really dumb novice question. Can somebody translate what was said below? I don't know what a "RPG fantasy" or a "TSR D&D game" is.


-----------

Paul: Here's two authors who, in large part, redefined adventure fantasy (especially RPG fantasy) decades ago with phenomenally successful series.

Paul: The Dragonlance novels were "supplements" to the TSR D&D game so if you imagine a killer D&D campaign written in novel form, that's a pretty good description of a classic W/H collaboration.

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paulgoatallen
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

Nadine:

TSR was the company that produced all of the Dungeon & Dragons gaming merch in the '70s, '80s and '90s.... I think they were bought by Wizards of the Coast a while back so there is no "TSR" anymore but back in the day, TSR was the company for RPG product: books, gaming campaigns,  miniature figurines, dice, etc.

 

And RPG stands for role-playing game –  there's an entire industry specializing in a wide range of RPG but I guess the average SF/fantasy reader would think of RPG as D&D...

Paul

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Nelsmom
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

Nadine,

 

I will try and help you out TSR is a trademark and they were the orginal publishers of Dragonlance.  They also developed the Role Playing Games.  They have since been bought out by West Coast Inc. D&D stands for Dungeons and Dragons which is another RPG or role playing game.  I hope that that helps you.  I guess we need to do a list for that kind of thing.

 

Toni

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Nadine
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

Thanks Paul and Toni. I am probably the only one on this board who doesn't know these terms. I'll catch on eventually.
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Nadine
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

I am curious about something. According to some comments from readers I've read, the Dragonlance series was considered cutting edge adventure fantasy series and, for some, on par with Tolkien's LOTR. I had not noticed any mention of it before but sometimes I don't pick up things.

 

So I went to the "Top Ten Best Fantasy/SF" thread to see what people had posted. Not one person mentioned the Dragonlance series. I was particularly curious because I was going to tackle a fantasy series and was trying to decide whether I should read Jordan's first three books of The Wheel of Time series, tackle the ultra huge Wizard's First Rule of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, or do the Weiss/Hickman Dragonlance Chronicles. There may be other newbies like me trying to decide where to take the fantasy series plunge.

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paulgoatallen
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

Nadine:

This is obviously just my opinion but Weis and Hickman's Dragonlance novels are excellent adventure fantasy but when measured against works like Tolkien's LOTR, Brooks' Shannara, even Salvatore's Drizzt saga, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Adventure fantasy, to me, is all about the quest – the action and adventure, the medal-to-the-metal pacing, the shocking plot twists, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be thematically deep or profoundly moving, although in many cases adventure fantasy novels are both action-packed and profoundly moving.  

 

Brooks' Shannara, Salvatore's Drizzt, Martin's Ice and Fire, Feist's Midkemia, Jordan's Wheel of Time, Goodkind's Sword of Truth – all are categorized as epic fantasy although they could easily be classified as adventure fantasy as well...

 

I've found that epic fantasy sagas tend to be more thematically intricate and explore character development more so than adventure fantasy, which, as a whole, is more focused on the action and many times feature two-dimensional characters. I think many of the top-notch "adventure fantasy" sagas (like Dragonlance) get treated like a red-headed stepchild by some fantasy readers because of the prejudice that the novels will be formulaic quest fantasy with the proverbial band of assorted humans, elves, dwarves and wizards embarking on an against-all-odds quest for some invaluable treasure. (Cue the dragons and the goblin armies...) There is some truth to that prejudice though – there's a lot of adventure fantasy that is uninspired, mediocre, derivative, whatever you want to call it. Dragonlance, however, is one of those series that should be included in with the aforementioned epic fantasy series.

Paul 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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TiggerBear
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


paulgoatallen wrote:

Nadine:

TSR was the company that produced all of the Dungeon & Dragons gaming merch in the '70s, '80s and '90s.... I think they were bought by Wizards of the Coast a while back so there is no "TSR" anymore but back in the day, TSR was the company for RPG product: books, gaming campaigns,  miniature figurines, dice, etc.

 

And RPG stands for role-playing game –  there's an entire industry specializing in a wide range of RPG but I guess the average SF/fantasy reader would think of RPG as D&D...

Paul


Wow am I the only old school gamer on here?

 

There were several major RPG game companies   

 

Wargamers West- United Kingdoms company   responceable for Warhammer, Space Marines, and Battle bowl mostly   -- If you ever played Starcraft, they ripped off the WarhammerSpace marine model masively.

 

White wolf- Vampires, Werewolf, Changeling, and co

 

Bard- lesser known games, best standout Talislantia

 

R. Talisorian- the first and best CYBERPUNK, and a few war statagie games

 

Fasa- Battletech, Earthdawn, Shadowrun

 

Steve Jackson Games- niche market stand alone games, best Illuminati game ever

 

TSR- Dungens and Dragons and all it's incarnations D&D, AD&D, AD&D 2, ect....

 

 

all this stuff started by a few guys in collage and their game, the original -Tunnels and Trolls

Two of those fellows went on, Steve Jackson and Gary Gygax.

Steve went on the market of cheep, easy to learn, quick to play (yet highly fun).

Gary went on to create D&D, which was really just an expanded T&T. Him and a few finacial backer formed TSR. The company went a little bloated and greedy when Mr. Gygax sold out his share and influence in the late 80tys. Growing and falling in on itself to grow again. Until Wizards of the cost bought it. Cleaned it up a bit, but also paved over most of the flavor. Kinda like going to Bush Gardens to experiance Europe. (chuckle) 

 

 And Paul

Wargamers West had the better figurines and still do.

Gamescience did and still make the best dice.

 

Back then the skimpiest game supplier would at least stock Fasa, TSR, White Wolf.

 

 

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paulgoatallen
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

Tigger:

Hey, you're singing to the choir – I used to manage bookstores from the mid 80 to the mid 90s and most stores I ever worked in had a pretty massive Gaming section. I still remember the special place we had for all of the dice behind the counter because they kept getting ripped off all of the time! 

 

I obviously simplified the whole industry down to a few sentences but, yeah, D&D is just the tip of the iceberg.... Most "nongamers" probably visualize D&D when they think about RPG but, you're right, there's hundreds of RPG games that have nothing to do with dungeons or dragons...

Paul 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Nadine
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

I see. D&D is a game. Looks kind of complicatd if you don't know it already. I found this web site that seems to have a good description.

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/whatisdnd

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TiggerBear
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


paulgoatallen wrote:

Tigger:

Hey, you're singing to the choir – I used to manage bookstores from the mid 80 to the mid 90s and most stores I ever worked in had a pretty massive Gaming section. I still remember the special place we had for all of the dice behind the counter because they kept getting ripped off all of the time! 

 

I obviously simplified the whole industry down to a few sentences but, yeah, D&D is just the tip of the iceberg.... Most "nongamers" probably visualize D&D when they think about RPG but, you're right, there's hundreds of RPG games that have nothing to do with dungeons or dragons...

Paul 


Sorry Paul, it was like  you squashed baseball into "that game with sticks". 

(chuckle) Can't believe you ever had them on the shelves.

 

Most book stores still have a section. Including B&N, check you local store display.  

 

Nongamers (sigh) You guys miss out.

 

Nadine  while were on the subject do you need the definition of LARP, cosplay, CCGs?

 

---------------------

Back in the day books got turned into games  Zeleney's Amber series, H.P Lovecrafts Cthulla, Tolkiens Midworld. Games spawned companion books Vampire, Shadowrun, ect...

And some of the best game sessions got turned into masterpieces like DragonLance.

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Melhay
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


Nadine wrote:

I am curious about something. According to some comments from readers I've read, the Dragonlance series was considered cutting edge adventure fantasy series and, for some, on par with Tolkien's LOTR. I had not noticed any mention of it before but sometimes I don't pick up things.

 

So I went to the "Top Ten Best Fantasy/SF" thread to see what people had posted. Not one person mentioned the Dragonlance series. I was particularly curious because I was going to tackle a fantasy series and was trying to decide whether I should read Jordan's first three books of The Wheel of Time series, tackle the ultra huge Wizard's First Rule of Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, or do the Weiss/Hickman Dragonlance Chronicles. There may be other newbies like me trying to decide where to take the fantasy series plunge.


 

Nadine,

Thank you for asking.  I have been walking around the bookstore looking for books to read and I keep coming back to these series.  I am going to have to look through the past threads here to see if there are any that talks on these series.

 

I have read Raymond Fiest.  I am just taken by the series.  I like the medieval, swords, dragons, elves, and magic.  There is a little of all in his series but the way he writes just pulls me in and is just so discriptive.  I have been looking for another series that just pulls you in and you just have to keep going.

 

I will have to keep note these all and start at the beginning.

 

Thanks to everyone for helping with this.  We will have to start at the beginning of the first series for the good stuff.

 

Melissa

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Nelsmom
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

I finally got the book from the library and from what little I have read I think that have done a good job of laying out the world and characters that have been introduced.  In some respects it is reminding me of their Deathgate Cycle which had seven books.  It started slow but got better as each book came out and by the end it was really great.  They expanded the world and characters with each book.  I will post more when I have finished the book.

 

Toni

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Nelsmom
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

I spent the whole afternoon reading this book and just now finished it.  I really enjoyed the book.  It has a few flaws similar to the first Deathgate book but good enough that I will read the next book and see how they develop the story.  It will be interesting to see what happens since they lost their editor at Tor.  But will worth the read but I definitely will not buy the Hardcover.

 

I had a bit of a hard time keeping the Gods and Goddess's straight.  Some of the characters seemed weak but that could of been done on purpose.  So like I said it will be interesting to see where they go.

 

Toni

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paulgoatallen
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


Nelsmom wrote:

It will be interesting to see what happens since they lost their editor at Tor.


TLC:

That's news to me – where'd you hear about this?

Paul 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Bradinator1
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

Sorry Paul,

I picked it up, looked it over, mulled the contents of my wallet and went with Butcher's Princeps Fury. It just did not inspire me with confidence.

 

Brad

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Nelsmom
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

[ Edited ]

It was in the dedication part of the book that I read.  He died of a Heart Attack very unexpected and just 57 years old.  They said that they were going to dedicate the whole series to him.

 

Toni

Message Edited by Nelsmom on 01-23-2009 03:31 PM
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paulgoatallen
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


Nelsmom wrote:

It was in the dedication part of the book that I read.  He died of a Heart Attack very unexpected and just 57 years old.  They said that they were going to dedicate the whole series to him.

 

Toni


Ah, man... that is tragic. 57 is considered "young" these days.

Paul 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Bonnie824
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

I spent awhile on the library waiting list, and just got this book, and came on this site to see if anyone else was reading it. I guess I missed the discussion. Darn prices on hardback books!
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TiggerBear
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


Bonnie824 wrote:
I spent awhile on the library waiting list, and just got this book, and came on this site to see if anyone else was reading it. I guess I missed the discussion. Darn prices on hardback books!

Never worry, no discussion is EVER entirely over.

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Bonnie824
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Re: JANUARY FEATURE #1: Bones of the Dragon by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman


Nelsmom wrote:

I finally got the book from the library and from what little I have read I think that have done a good job of laying out the world and characters that have been introduced.  In some respects it is reminding me of their Deathgate Cycle which had seven books.  It started slow but got better as each book came out and by the end it was really great.  They expanded the world and characters with each book.  I will post more when I have finished the book.

 

Toni


 

I am about a third of the way in now Toni, and I agree. The world and characters were built at a good pace- withou dragging out long chapters of no plot to do it. I like the way the dragons, the gods, the ogre's, the fae, and the humans are explained and tied together. It is easy reading, but not too simplistic. I am pretty sure I will be reading the rest of the series as they come out. BTW- I went on a website about the authors and found out "Tracy" is a man, which surprised me- but not now that I've read more. You can clearly see a male POV throughout.