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Distinguished Bibliophile
dalnewt
Posts: 2,725
Registered: ‎06-16-2009

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

 

ScribbledNotes wrote:

 

dalnewt wrote:

I finished The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms (Inheritance Trilogy Series) yesterday and felt the need to comment on the book. It was a engrossing read which kept me up half the night. The narrative voice of the protagonist, Yeine Darr, was compelling., The mythology and related world building were impressive. And, the plot was convoluted, intriguing and satisfying. Nonetheless, I did have some reservations which concerned the mythology created within the book and the character of the protagonist.

 

In regard to the mythos, a female deity or form has been worshiped since pre-historic times as the creator of life/fertility. (The rotund stone statues of obviously pregnant females attest to this long-held myth.) On the other hand, archeologists have not found male figures as deities until the rise of the first civilization in ancient Sumer. It has been surmised that there were no male deities until hunter-gatherer groups of humans settled and organized themselves under the rule of physically stronger males. Essentially, male dominance equalled male deities. Eventually, the monotheistic male god figure came to predominant.

 

As applied to the book, it predictably casts the female god as the deity of life/balance while simultaneously acknowledging the predominance of the male god, by having two male gods to the one female and by casting a male god, Nahadoth, as the first and oldest god. Note, it's not that I object to this mythology, it's just that I crave a book which creates a mythos that doesn't pay tribute to the predominance of the male diety and/or doesn't predictably cast a female deity in the role of the goddess of life/fertility.

 

With respect to the character of Yeine, she just wasn't quite as conflicted or nuanced as I believe most individuals are. Note, she was quite compelling and engaging, but her thoughts and actions seemed too scripted and directed (and not what a real 19 year old girl would experience in her place). Further, when she ascends to godhood, she's just seemed too blase, remote and competent. She's a 19 year old girl, not an millenniums old deity. In short, her transformation just seem too easy and a bit artificial to me.  

 

 

Hmmm...I also did think that the ending of the books moved faster than I expected, but I don;t think it hurt the book. It seemed to me at the end, that while Yeine achieved godhood, part of her was still Enefa. I think that Enefa and Yeine combined to form a new separate god-entity, which would explain her slightly different demeanor post-transformation.

 

I would like to respectfully disagree with your comment about the male/female deity portrayal. I think that there was a part of the book in which one of the Enefadeh reminded Yeine that Enefa also did plenty of destroying as well as life-giving. And I actually thought that the portrayal of Itempas and the larger relationship between the Three demonstrated the flaws and evils that can result from a single-god dominated system of living. Itempas' tyranny is shown to be very wrong, in my opinion. I actually think that  the gender of the gods had little to do with the major themes of the book. But that;s just my opinion as well.

 

Brandon

 

 

I don't believe that the text supports an interpretation that Enefa and Yeine merged to form a separate godlike entity. On p. 377 a discussion occurs between the Yeine's soul and the soul of Enefa. Enefa asks Yeine if she understands what happened. Yeine answers that she is dead but that she is still there because of the stone. Enefa specifically states,"Yes, in the presence of the stone which houses the last of my power." On p. 378 Enefa confirms that Yeine can come back to life with the stone but emphasizes that her body will change as a result of that rebirth and will no longer be able to hold two souls. It ends with Yeine saying farewell to Enefa and Enefa expressing her thanks (and presumably disappearing). From that text, it's clear that Yeine was resurrected as a god by the power contained within the stone. But, that power cannot really explain how Yeine suddenly knows how to effectively utilize that power. Note, the text does state, on p. 387, "The knowledge of my power was within me as instinctive as how to think and how to breathe."  But this contradicts earlier explanations within the book which state that it took Enefa an incalculable amount of time playing with the materials of the universe to create life. And even when she successfully created her 'toys', she destroyed them at first because they were defective and/or not what she wanted. Since it took a born god millenniums of ages to learn how to use her power, Yeine really shouldn't instantaneously know how to do it. The fact that Yeine does instantaneously know how to wield the power is a flaw (or plot hole) given the facts set forth within the book. Logically, Yeine should be a newborn god, uncertain and inept in her power. 

 

As regards the female gender issue, all I can say is that deities which represented fertility/life (including the cycle of life ending in death/mortality) were almost exclusively female. And, predictably, the book casts a female in that role.

 

As regards the importance of the gender of the three gods, one theme in the book encompasses the basic notion of a moderating entity who/which comes between and balances two more extreme entities, (one being rigid/regimented and the other being chaotic/spontaneous). Again, that moderating/balancing entity is predictably cast as a female.

 

Finally, just let me say that gender always matters, and this is especially the case when a creation myth or mythos involving gods is utilized. And, it matters that the most junior of the gods, outnumbered two to one by male counter-parts, is cast as a female while the two older gods (who created the universe between them) are cast as male.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Author
NKJemisin
Posts: 50
Registered: ‎02-18-2010

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

Poking in super-briefly; am at a conference in Florida and the hotel charges the earth for internet access...

 

I shouldn't be surprised by now at how you guys really churn once you get going!  Fascinating to read all the speculations and analyses.  I can't respond to all this stuff individually, but just some general thoughts:

 

-Yeine is indeed a newborn goddess.  This means she does lack some of the skills that Enefa had, which she alludes to during the confrontation with Itempas -- she's worried that she doesn't know how to fight as gods fight, and knows that if Nahadoth wasn't there, Itempas would attack her.  That said, there are still some skills which are instinctive, because they're part of her nature as a goddess of life and death.  She can create new life.  She can kill.  Frankly, she could do that as a human, no special knowledge needed.  So I figured even a newborn goddess would have some basic skills at birth.

 

-Kurue really is dead.  :smileyhappy:  Finished, finito, na na na na hey hey hey goodbye.

 

-T'vril will appear, briefly, in book 2.

 

-Keep in mind that the "amalgamated" characters of the story were amalgamated throughout the story.  Yeine has always been influenced by Enefa, so she acts like a 19-year-old woman with an ancient god's soul.  Her behavior is typical for girls with ancient god souls. :smileyhappy:  Also, remember, in her culture she has been considered an adult for several years, and expected to behave as such; she's not a "teenager" in anything but the physical sense.  Having met some teenagers from cultures that don't coddle their teens the way our culture does, they really don't act like what we would expect.  I tried to convey this in Yeine's behavior.  Also, Viraine acts like a 40-something man with an ancient -- and mad, and lonely -- god's soul.

 

-A key point:  Nahadoth is not really male.  He appears as such, so I refer to him as such, but this is just shorthand.  Kurue comments on this in the library scene, that Itempas forced him into a single shape -- and gender -- when he incarnated Nahadoth in human form.  But the library image hints at his true nature, which is any/all gender.  He's been male at points in history; he's been female at other points; he's been both and neither; he's made up his own genders that don't exist in the human species.  I also deliberately implied a female role in his creation of the universe:  he gave birth to its raw substance, literally out of his own body, which Itempas later helped him organize.  We'll see a little more of this in the followup books.

 

In essence, the Three are designed as checks and balancers of each other, on multiple overlapping levels.  Enefa was stronger than either of her brothers, but the two of them working together could overpower her.  Itempas is the weakest of the Three, but his power is the most reliable, while Nahadoth's fluctuates wildly and unpredictably, and Enefa's ebbs and flows in regular cycles.  Itempas is always male; he never takes a female form.  Enefa is always female.  Nahadoth varies depending on how he's feeling on a given day.  (So at various points in the universe's history, the Three have actually been two females and one male.  In book 2 we'll meet a godling who is the daughter of Nahadoth and Itempas.  She's a little messed up. :smileyhappy:  )  Even their visual appearances are meant to complement and overlap:  Nahadoth is very white.  Itempas is very black.  Enefa/Yeine is brown.  Between the three of them, they mostly cover the full spectrum of humanity.

 

And remember that they have multiple roles.  Enefa was not just the goddess of life and death.  She was also the goddess of balance -- akin to the Preserver of the Hindu Trimurti.  Her job was to keep her brothers' battles in check, through overpowering them if necessary but also through sacrificing herself to make them happy.  (Yes, this is stereotypically feminine, and yes it's deliberate.)  Her most important job is to love them, equally.  I wouldn't call her the dominant member of the Three any more than the average woman has the dominant role in a typical American nuclear family -- most women are raised to be the maintainers/mediators in a relationship, and to be the ones to "keep the family together".  (That doesn't usually work, because one person can't make a family work; the whole family has to work at it.  Which is why Enefa failed, because Itempas and Nahadoth didn't do their parts either.)

 

OK, got to get some sleep.  :smileyhappy:

 

Nora

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

dainewt wrote

I don't believe that the text supports an interpretation that Enefa and Yeine merged to form a separate godlike entity. On p. 377 a discussion occurs between the Yeine's soul and the soul of Enefa. Enefa asks Yeine if she understands what happened. Yeine answers that she is dead but that she is still there because of the stone. Enefa specifically states,"Yes, in the presence of the stone which houses the last of my power." On p. 378 Enefa confirms that Yeine can come back to life with the stone but emphasizes that her body will change as a result of that rebirth and will no longer be able to hold two souls. It ends with Yeine saying farewell to Enefa and Enefa expressing her thanks (and presumably disappearing). From that text, it's clear that Yeine was resurrected as a god by the power contained within the stone. But, that power cannot really explain how Yeine suddenly knows how to effectively utilize that power. Note, the text does state, on p. 387, "The knowledge of my power was within me as instinctive as how to think and how to breathe."  But this contradicts earlier explanations within the book which state that it took Enefa an incalculable amount of time playing with the materials of the universe to create life. And even when she successfully created her 'toys', she destroyed them at first because they were defective and/or not what she wanted. Since it took a born god millenniums of ages to learn how to use her power, Yeine really shouldn't instantaneously know how to do it. The fact that Yeine does instantaneously know how to wield the power is a flaw (or plot hole) given the facts set forth within the book. Logically, Yeine should be a newborn god, uncertain and inept in her power. 

 

As regards the female gender issue, all I can say is that deities which represented fertility/life (including the cycle of life ending in death/mortality) were almost exclusively female. And, predictably, the book casts a female in that role.

 

As regards the importance of the gender of the three gods, one theme in the book encompasses the basic notion of a moderating entity who/which comes between and balances two more extreme entities, (one being rigid/regimented and the other being chaotic/spontaneous). Again, that moderating/balancing entity is predictably cast as a female.

 

Finally, just let me say that gender always matters, and this is especially the case when a creation myth or mythos involving gods is utilized. And, it matters that the most junior of the gods, outnumbered two to one by male counter-parts, is cast as a female while the two older gods (who created the universe between them) are cast as male.

=================================================

 

Excellent reference on Yeine and Enefa. I guess I slipped over that.

 

Very good analysis of the mythology.

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

Great post, Nora. All sorts of great information.

 

Good you said Kurue was definitely gone. I was think of resurecting her in my next book guesses. And T'vril will make a brief appearance. Hmmm. That may alter my time placement of the next book.

 

============================

Nahadoth is very white.  Itempas is very black.  Enefa/Yeine is brown.  Between the three of them, they mostly cover the full spectrum of humanity.

=============================

 

That is kind of the opposite of what I was envisioning. I thought of Nahadoth as dark and Itempas as bright and light.

 

Great information on your mythology. That really helps a lot!

Author
NKJemisin
Posts: 50
Registered: ‎02-18-2010

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

 

Nadine wrote:

Great post, Nora. All sorts of great information.

 

Good you said Kurue was definitely gone. I was think of resurecting her in my next book guesses. And T'vril will make a brief appearance. Hmmm. That may alter my time placement of the next book.

 

============================

Nahadoth is very white.  Itempas is very black.  Enefa/Yeine is brown.  Between the three of them, they mostly cover the full spectrum of humanity.

=============================

 

That is kind of the opposite of what I was envisioning. I thought of Nahadoth as dark and Itempas as bright and light.

 

Great information on your mythology. That really helps a lot!

 

 

Hi Nadine.  Nahadoth is dark -- in personality, in nature, in his true state.  But for the majority of the book he has extremely pale skin.  This was deliberate.

 

In quite a lot of fantasy that I've read, the "dark lord" or evil character actually has black skin or is physically "dark" in some way.  (Actually, Jacqueline Carey touched on this in her BANEWREAKER and its followup book -- don't recall the name of that one...  But it was essentially Lord of the Rings if it had been written from Sauron's perspective.  It made Satoris, the bad guy of that series, a three-dimensional human character rather than, well, a dark lord.  But the moment when people started thinking of him as evil was after he got burned by his brother, and his previously pale skin turned black.)  And in a lot of actual mythology, the sun god is depicted as a physically pale-skinned and/or blond person -- which makes no sense to me, as pale blonds are the sorts of people who would sunburn most easily, develop skin cancer, etc.  So this is why Nahadoth is very pale -- partly because the Arameri like him that way, but also as a person who avoids sunlight should be, IMO.  And Itempas is a very dark-skinned black man -- with white hair and weirdly-colored eyes, yes, but he has the complexion to suit being the living embodiment of the sun.  He also has a "light" nature -- but as book 2 will show, "light" does not necessarily mean "good" or "nice" or any of the other terms we normally associate with brightness.  Very bright light can destroy your eyes, after all.  Get too close to the sun and you'll burn to death.

 

Nora

Distinguished Bibliophile
dalnewt
Posts: 2,725
Registered: ‎06-16-2009

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

[ Edited ]

I've got a question about the killing of Kinneth, Yeine's mother.

 

On p. 370 Sieh states that Kurue killed Kinneth after Kurue declares that she would rather die than be beholding to a human (Yeine) for her freedom.

 

Kurue then goes on to explain that the death of Yeine was the only sensible course because the soul of Enefa will linger near the flesh of Yeine and be finally destroyed by Itempas when he arrives.

 

But, that doesn't explain why the death of Kinneth was necessary. Yeine could have been called to Sky despite her mother's continued existence as a shunned/excommunicated member of the family.

 

A speculation is that Kinneth's death might have been required to finally push Dekarta over the edge (past any hope of reconciliation with his daughter) and motivate Dekarta to send for Yeine to act as the family sacrifice. This explanation is supported by an exchange between Dekarta and Yeine on pp. 360-61. On p. 361, (after Yeine has accused Dekarta of killing her mother), Dekarta responds that he didn't kill Kinneth and would have welcomed Kinneth back to Sky with Yeine in tow if Kinneth hadn't hated him. He then states that he came close to killing Yeine when he heard of Kinneth's death. In this somewhat convoluted way, Dekarta accuses Yeine of killing her own mother and Yeine responds with incredulity. Then, on p. 362 Dekarta states:

 

"Perhaps you aren't one of us.... Now I see you are innocent, and by killing you I only destroy what remains of her. There is a part of me which regrets this. But I will not lie, Granddaughter. There is another part of me that will rejoice in your death. You took her from me. She left Sky to be with your father, and to raise you."  

 

So, this seems to support the theory that Kinneth's death was required to prompt Dekarta to send for Yeine and to use Yeine as the family sacrifice.

 

But, of course, all that seems unnecessary. As a god Itempas could have hunted down Yeine and killed her anywhere in the world. And, the soul of Enefa would have lingered near Yeine's body anyway allowing Itempas to destroy it at that time.

 

So a further question remains. Specifically, why was this convoluted plan for manipulating Dekarta relied upon? Perhaps it was simply a matter of Itempas wanting to dash all hopes of Nahadoth and the Enefadeh. Perhaps it was simply pride on the part of Itempas, thinking that he could manipulate everything.  But, why take the chance about Dekarta? Dekarta could have simply killed Yeine before she even arrived at Sky (as Dekarta believed that Yeine had killed her own mother). Also, why allow Yeine to get anywhere near the stone? Why didn't Itempas safely direct Dekarta to appoint some other inconsequential family member to act as the sacrifice and, then, emerge from Viraine and kill Yeine within her northern country and simultaneously destroy the remnant soul of Enefa? Perhaps it was simply a matter of Itempas' pride, but the whole plan still seems shaky (relying on an uncertain response by Dekarta to Kinneth's death) and risky (allowing Enefa's soul, housed with the Yeine's body, to come into close contact with the last remnant of Enefa's power).

 

I also have some problems with some of the decisions made by Yeine after her transformation, but this post is getting too long, so I'll probably express those questions/speculations later. 

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms: Through End of book!

Nadine wrote:

Now there are a few unresolved things for me. But this is only the first book in a trilogy. One is the Chaos chapter dream. That has got to have some purpose. Did it happen in the past, will it happen in the future, will Yeine become part of some other mortal, or was it just a dream to establish the cruelty of the Arameri.

 

The altarskirt rose. Yeine makes a point of saying this is important. Page 3:

 

"There is a rose that is famous in the High North. (This is not a digression.) It is called the alterskirt rose. Not only do its petals unfold in a radiance of pearled white, but frequently it grows an incomplete secondary flower about the base of its stem. In its most prized form, the altarskirt grows a layer of overlarge petals that drape the ground. The two bloom in tandem, seedbearing head and skirt, glory above and below."

 

It is also in the glossary so it has to have some relevance. My only thought is that it represented the kind of symbiotic relationship between Yeine and Enefa and Viraine and Itempas. But I'm not sure. I don't think it comes up again in the book.

 

 

 

Ahhh, I am so glad you brought up this Altarskirt Rose.  I had noted this way back when I read it on page 3.  I was wondering then if it was a symbolizm, but not sure of what... Sky, her (Yeine) or her mother?  This was something I wanted to talk on.

 

Also, something I am wondering now too is - when is the story being told?  This is a trilogy.  So is this story being told after all three books have happened or only after the first book?  If it is being told after all the happenings are done, then the blips by Yeine could possibly be references to or clues to the future books. I may have to go back through all the little blips and reread them.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008
0 Kudos

Re: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms: Through End of book!

ScribbledNotes wrote:

 

Melhay wrote:

On T'vril and what he was talking to the servants.

On page 304 Yeine realizes what he was talking to the servants about.  I believe it was an evacuation routine in case something went array with the Earth Stone being delivered to the room and with the gods being present.

"Immediately after the ball, the Stone of Earth will be sent through the palace's central shaft to the ritual chamber, in the solarium spire."

"Ah. I heard you warning the servants about this last week."

T'vril turned the clipboard in his fingers gently, not looking at me/ "Yes/ A fleeting exposure supposedly does no harm, but..." He shrugged. "It's a thing of the gods. Best to stay away."

 

On page 397 Yeine, the goddess, is now talking with her grandfather.  I think she is able to see, or know things that are happening around.  I don't know if this realy shows anything to do with the plan, maybe more of his qualities to take charge and be the next heir.

I smiled to myself, seeing without eyes through the layers of Sky.  Within, the palace was not so very different.  Bark and branches had replaced the pearly Skystuff in places, and some of the dead spaces had been filled with living wood.  But even this simple change was enough to terrify the denizens of Sky, highblood and low alike.  At the heart of the chaos was T'vril, marshaling the palace's servants and organizing an evacuation.

 

I think he was trying to get his people away from where the gods and the Stone of Earth are when the stone is transported there.

 

 

Wow, I'm surprised that I couldn't remember this. I knew I must have read it somewhere but I justcouldn;t place it. Thanks for letting me know!

 

Brandon

 

Brandon you are welcome! :smileyhappy:  That's way Nadine and everyone pick on me.  *chuckle* I have the pages marked with my post-its.  I am such a geek. :smileyhappy:  I always have to go back and look this stuff up for myself.  Glad I could help you!

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

Brandon Wrote:

Hmmm...I also did think that the ending of the books moved faster than I expected, but I don;t think it hurt the book. It seemed to me at the end, that while Yeine achieved godhood, part of her was still Enefa. I think that Enefa and Yeine combined to form a new separate god-entity, which would explain her slightly different demeanor post-transformation.

---------------------------------------------------------

Nadine Wrote: 

I'm a bit fuzzy on this but I'm inclined to go along with your thinking, Brandon. Whether true or not, I like the idea of Yeine and Enefa forming a new god person. This is especially true since Yeine not only moved up to godhood fast but also seems to be the top dog god. It was she who made most of the final decisions and the rest of the gods (and humans) followed her decisions.

 

I am still wondering who was Yeine's father. And if this final transference was part of Kinneth plan.

---------------------------------

 

First I have to just say this right here is why I love doing these discussions.  There are so many different views on the book and takes on it.  I love hearing these.

 

Now I am going to share a few thoughts too. :smileyhappy:

 

I was thinking Enefa had influenced Yeine more than everyone realized.  In who Yeine grew up to be both in physical and mental strengths.  I think Yeine had started to get lost in her thinking because she wasn't sure where She ended and Enefa began.  Being two souls together, I think there would be some sharing going on.  For an example, I would have to say Yeine talking about what she wanted if she was free.  She even kept going on this thought process in her blips after her talk with Nightlord.  I think Enefa had realized what she had created and what needed to be adjusted to make it better.  Yeine also saw these things and felt the same way.  Then she was stuck on that process for a while.

 

Then, when Yeine died and became a god with Enefa's Earth Stone.  She has a piece of Enefa in her to remember Enefa.  I don't think Enefa is influencing her any longer.  I think Enefa had left the seed there long ago when the souls shared the body together and now Yeine's thoughts and beliefs where influence into that thinking process.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: The Broken Kingdom

 

Nadine wrote:

I thought I would start looking at some things that we know about the next book.

 

In her interview in the back, Nora makes some statements about what will be in the next book.

 

1. "In book two, you'll learn what becomes of Itempas after his fall from power."

 

2. "what caused him to turn on his fellow gods at the start of the Gods' War.

 

3 "In book two, I want to focus on the ordinary people of this world .

 

4. "how they cope when giant trees obscure the sky"

 

5. "the corner grocer might be a godling in disguise."

 

6. "The story will focus on a young blindwoman who finds a homeless man in her trash heap one morning--glowing like the rising sun."

 

7. :smileyfrustrated:he takes him in and this simple act of kindness lands her in the middle of a conspiracy to destroy the gods."

 

8. "Many characters from the first book will put in an appearance"

 

 

Just thought I would add this to the list of things we know about the next book.

 

9. He [Itempas] also has a "light" nature -- but as book 2 will show, "light" does not necessarily mean "good" or "nice" or any of the other terms we normally associate with brightness.

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

It seemed to me in the end of the book that Yeine was having a hard time remembering herself and who people where to her.  Like when she rubbed Siehs hair, she didn't know why she did that or even wanted to do it.  She almost seemed to lose the Yeine in her as she changed to the Goddess. 

 

Or was this Enefa that wanted felt these connections and Yeine, now only one soul - her own, vaguely remembering these patterens and going with them?

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008
0 Kudos

Re: The Broken Kingdom

Nadine wrote:

 

Nadine wrote:

I thought I would start looking at some things that we know about the next book.

 

In her interview in the back, Nora makes some statements about what will be in the next book.

 

1. "In book two, you'll learn what becomes of Itempas after his fall from power."

 

2. "what caused him to turn on his fellow gods at the start of the Gods' War.

 

3 "In book two, I want to focus on the ordinary people of this world .

 

4. "how they cope when giant trees obscure the sky"

 

5. "the corner grocer might be a godling in disguise."

 

6. "The story will focus on a young blindwoman who finds a homeless man in her trash heap one morning--glowing like the rising sun."

 

7. :smileyfrustrated:he takes him in and this simple act of kindness lands her in the middle of a conspiracy to destroy the gods."

 

8. "Many characters from the first book will put in an appearance"

 

 

Just thought I would add this to the list of things we know about the next book.

 

9. He [Itempas] also has a "light" nature -- but as book 2 will show, "light" does not necessarily mean "good" or "nice" or any of the other terms we normally associate with brightness.

 

Don't forget this comment by Nora:

 

10. T'vril will appear, briefly, in book 2

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: The Broken Kingdom

When I first started to read the sample chapter for The Broken Kingdom, I had not realized that the narrator was blind, especially since she was a painter and appeared to see "people". But now I realize that she can only see gods, which I guess makes them more apparent to her.

 

I gather the the person she finds in the trash pile is Itempas. But he reminds me so much of Nahadoth.

 

Page 425

"But as I stood there, transfixed by those eyes, I saw something else: pain."

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: The Broken Kingdom

Comment by Nora:

-T'vril will appear, briefly, in book 2

________________________________________-

 

This one comment has me thinking, along with the notes I have written to think what may come in the next book.

 

1)  We know there is going to be struggle among the humans.  The Aramari are going to have to fight to keep what the have.  And since they ruled with such a strong thumb all these years, so close to Itempas, they are going to be the ones in trouble - remember they are not ones for fighting either.  Maybe poor T'vril will meet an unkind end due to this struggle the Aramari are going to have with the rest of the world.

 

2)  I think Enefa has planted a seed in Yeine in which there are things in the world that needs adjusted to run smoother.  I think this may be something that will show up through the next books.  This seemed to be a major thought to Yeine and what to do to fix it.

 

3)  Which relates back to #1.  What is going to come of the world of humans with out godly influence on it?  Where are the people going to be, do, and worship?  I feel this could come into play as well.

 

4)  Itempas!!!  He is a major player to come.  What will come of him?  I think we have to go down the dirty road with him and watch as he creates some waves for Yeine and Nightlord to work with.  He could be an interesting character with as mad as he was in the end of this book.

 

5)  Darre.  Darre was being destroyed the last we had seen, by Scimina's lands.  I am curious to see what happens there.  Could Itempas go there to torment Yeine?  Just a thought.

 

6)  Yeine has made a promise to Enefa to unite the family again.  To have all three gods together and get along, or as well as expected being they are complete opposites.  This is what I think will be a struggle through to the end of the trilogy.  This is to be the end result.  Now if it happens we shall see.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: The Broken Kingdom

Melissa wrote:

Don't forget this comment by Nora:

 

10. T'vril will appear, briefly, in book 2

-----------------------------------------------------

 

How could I forget that!

 

I have been trying to place the time of the next book in relationship to the last book. This world seems to be well populated by godlings and I don't think that was the case in the last case. So someone is now doing a lot of reproducing! I was also assuming that it takes a normal amount of time for godlings to "mature" but maybe not. Because I was making that assumption I thought this might also be taking place many years from the end of the last book. But if T'vil is in fact the leader now, and he is a mortal, this story may begin soon after.

 

I have the feeling that Yeine has left the scene. I kind of thought her thinking was that humans should be left to their own devices without interference from the gods. Though this "little" tree she created seems to be causing all sorts of problems. I'm not all sure why she did that. We know Sieh is still hanging around since he narrates the third book.

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: The Broken Kingdom

Melissa wrote:

 

Comment by Nora:

-T'vril will appear, briefly, in book 2

________________________________________-

 

This one comment has me thinking, along with the notes I have written to think what may come in the next book.

 

1)  We know there is going to be struggle among the humans.  The Aramari are going to have to fight to keep what the have.  And since they ruled with such a strong thumb all these years, so close to Itempas, they are going to be the ones in trouble - remember they are not ones for fighting either.  Maybe poor T'vril will meet an unkind end due to this struggle the Aramari are going to have with the rest of the world.

========================

 

Great points, Melissa! You are still the champ!


Actually, there could end up a class war just among the Aramari. T'vil was from the "servant" class so I would think they would be on his side. But they would have a great deal of bitterness toward the cruel upper class of Aramari. I kind of feel, after all those years of make-believe controlled war, that the kindoms would start fighting among themselves for real.

Nadine

===========================

 

2)  I think Enefa has planted a seed in Yeine in which there are things in the world that needs adjusted to run smoother.  I think this may be something that will show up through the next books.  This seemed to be a major thought to Yeine and what to do to fix it.

 

3)  Which relates back to #1.  What is going to come of the world of humans with out godly influence on it?  Where are the people going to be, do, and worship?  I feel this could come into play as well.

=========================

They might go back to their old religions, and we got a taste of that idea back in the chapter Sar-enna-nem. But I don't know if that would work with absense of Itempas.

Nadine

=============================

 

4)  Itempas!!!  He is a major player to come.  What will come of him?  I think we have to go down the dirty road with him and watch as he creates some waves for Yeine and Nightlord to work with.  He could be an interesting character with as mad as he was in the end of this book.

=============================

 

Yes, I think Itempas is going to be a major player in TBK. He can't be too happy with his situation and he is going to want to change it. He is basically a cruel god. I'm not sure if his punishment was meant to be permenent or whether he is expected to have some atonement for his past behavior.

Nadine

====================================

 

5)  Darre.  Darre was being destroyed the last we had seen, by Scimina's lands.  I am curious to see what happens there.  Could Itempas go there to torment Yeine?  Just a thought.

 

=====================================

I think Zhakkam when off to fix that up. Bottom of page 394

"Darr," I said.

"I'll see to things," Zhakkarn replied and vanished.

================================

 

6)  Yeine has made a promise to Enefa to unite the family again.  To have all three gods together and get along, or as well as expected being they are complete opposites.  This is what I think will be a struggle through to the end of the trilogy.  This is to be the end result.  Now if it happens we shall see.

========================

Since we have two more books to go this can't happen until the end. But then we have something completely different by the end.

Nadine

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: The Broken Kingdom

The section of the book where Goddess Yeine talks to her Uncle makes me think there will be wars or fighting among the different people.  Or the next book could start years later will these are still going on or after the fact.

 

pg 396:

"You'll choose another heir, who will hold on to your power as best he can.  Whether he succeeds or not, we will be gone, Naha and I, and Itempas will be useless to you.  It should be interesting to see what mortals make of the world without our constant interference."

Dekart stared at me in disbelief and horror. "Without the gods, every nation on this planet will rise up to destroy us.  Then they'll turn on each other."

"Perhaps."

"Perhaps?"

"It will definitely happen," I said, "if your descendants are fools.  But the Enefadeh have never been the Arameri's sole weapon, Grandfather; you know that better than anyone.  You have more wealth than any single nation, enough to hire and equip whole armies.  You have the Itempan priesthood, and they will be very motivated to spread your version of the truth, since they are threatened, too.  And you have your own fine-honed viciousness, which has served well enough as a weapon all this time." I shrugged. "The Arameri can survive, and perhaps even retain power for a few generations.  Enough, hopefully, to temper the worst of the world's wrath."

 

This whole section seems to play so many possible thoughts for the future books.

~ It seems as the Gods are not to interfer with the mortals to see it that will work.  Maybe if not Yeine will create Godlings to help the mortals.

~ Arameri may be able to hold the crown for a while but the world will end up working against them.  But hopefully if the Arameri put the right person as king they will weather through the storm of major change to work with all the other people and races.

~ There looks to be a change of religions beliefs to come around.  Whether back to the old way or to a new way we are not sure.

 

 

Now I have a question.  Will the new heir have any power?  There is nothing there to control.  The sigil had other relatively helpful things, as it kept the family from killing each other.  Remember Scimina spoke of this when she was torturing Sieh, that Yeine could not kill her with her knife.  Now the sigil was given by Itempas, so maybe it has no power anymore.  Just curious...

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Author
NKJemisin
Posts: 50
Registered: ‎02-18-2010

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

 

dalnewt wrote:

I've got a question about the killing of Kinneth, Yeine's mother.

 

On p. 370 Sieh states that Kurue killed Kinneth after Kurue declares that she would rather die than be beholding to a human (Yeine) for her freedom.

 

Kurue then goes on to explain that the death of Yeine was the only sensible course because the soul of Enefa will linger near the flesh of Yeine and be finally destroyed by Itempas when he arrives.

 

But, that doesn't explain why the death of Kinneth was necessary. Yeine could have been called to Sky despite her mother's continued existence as a shunned/excommunicated member of the family.

 

A speculation is that Kinneth's death might have been required to finally push Dekarta over the edge (past any hope of reconciliation with his daughter) and motivate Dekarta to send for Yeine to act as the family sacrifice. This explanation is supported by an exchange between Dekarta and Yeine on pp. 360-61. On p. 361, (after Yeine has accused Dekarta of killing her mother), Dekarta responds that he didn't kill Kinneth and would have welcomed Kinneth back to Sky with Yeine in tow if Kinneth hadn't hated him. He then states that he came close to killing Yeine when he heard of Kinneth's death. In this somewhat convoluted way, Dekarta accuses Yeine of killing her own mother and Yeine responds with incredulity. Then, on p. 362 Dekarta states:

 

"Perhaps you aren't one of us.... Now I see you are innocent, and by killing you I only destroy what remains of her. There is a part of me which regrets this. But I will not lie, Granddaughter. There is another part of me that will rejoice in your death. You took her from me. She left Sky to be with your father, and to raise you."  

 

So, this seems to support the theory that Kinneth's death was required to prompt Dekarta to send for Yeine and to use Yeine as the family sacrifice.

 

But, of course, all that seems unnecessary. As a god Itempas could have hunted down Yeine and killed her anywhere in the world. And, the soul of Enefa would have lingered near Yeine's body anyway allowing Itempas to destroy it at that time.

 

So a further question remains. Specifically, why was this convoluted plan for manipulating Dekarta relied upon? Perhaps it was simply a matter of Itempas wanting to dash all hopes of Nahadoth and the Enefadeh. Perhaps it was simply pride on the part of Itempas, thinking that he could manipulate everything.  But, why take the chance about Dekarta? Dekarta could have simply killed Yeine before she even arrived at Sky (as Dekarta believed that Yeine had killed her own mother). Also, why allow Yeine to get anywhere near the stone? Why didn't Itempas safely direct Dekarta to appoint some other inconsequential family member to act as the sacrifice and, then, emerge from Viraine and kill Yeine within her northern country and simultaneously destroy the remnant soul of Enefa? Perhaps it was simply a matter of Itempas' pride, but the whole plan still seems shaky (relying on an uncertain response by Dekarta to Kinneth's death) and risky (allowing Enefa's soul, housed with the Yeine's body, to come into close contact with the last remnant of Enefa's power).

 

I also have some problems with some of the decisions made by Yeine after her transformation, but this post is getting too long, so I'll probably express those questions/speculations later. 

 

 

Hi Dalnewt (?),

 

Hmm, it sounds to me like you're a little confused as to who was trying to do what.  Itempas wasn't trying to get the soul, for example; he didn't even know the soul was in Yeine until Kurue told him (not long before the events of the novel).  Itempas didn't *care* about the soul, really.  Let me see if I can explain.  It helps if you consider the various characters' motives, not just the actions they took.

 

This was Kurue's plan:  to give Enefa's soul to Itempas, without letting her fellow Enefadeh know of her betrayal in advance (because they would kill her), and in a way that would make her look good in Itempas' eyes so he would set her free.  Also, without making the Arameri realize she was rebelling against them (because then they might have interfered with her plans, or tortured her to find out what she was up to, or who knows what else).

 

This was Itempas' plan:  to be near Nahadoth.  Loneliness is his prime motivator.  Also, his goal was to manipulate Nahadoth into finally giving in to him, so they could be together again.  Making Nahadoth suffer was his long-term plan.  Getting one of the Enefadeh to betray the rest wasn't something he'd initially planned, but when he realized Kurue was ready to rebel, he decided to take advantage of it.  By removing Nahadoth's support system (i.e., the other Enefadeh), and killing his other lovers to make him despair, Itempas hoped to break Naha's spirit and encourage him to capitulate.

 

This was Dekarta's plan:  to find out whether Yeine killed Kinneth.  He could've just killed her on the strength of his suspicions -- but because he loved Kinneth, he wanted proof.  Yeine is very much like him, in this respect; they both wanted to know the truth of Kinneth's death.

 

Dekarta wouldn't have had any reason to summon Yeine to Sky if Kinneth hadn't died.  He had already decided to let Kinneth live her own life.  Itempas would have had no reason to kill Yeine if the Enefadeh hadn't put Enefa's soul into her -- and if Nahadoth hadn't loved her, which triggered the old jealousy. 

 

Kurue didn't have to wait 'til Yeine and the Stone were in the same room; she could've killed Yeine at any point after Yeine got to Sky.  But that would have a) made the other Enefadeh and the Arameri suspicious, and b) pissed off Itempas, who would've lost the chance to make Nahadoth despair a little more.  She needed to keep Itempas happy so he would set her free.  Basically she was playing Itempas against the other Enefadeh, using the Arameri (including Kinneth and Yeine) as her pawns.

 

I know this is convoluted, but does that clarify things at all?

 

Nora

Distinguished Bibliophile
dalnewt
Posts: 2,725
Registered: ‎06-16-2009

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

 

NKJemisin wrote:

 

Hi Dalnewt (?),

 

Hmm, it sounds to me like you're a little confused as to who was trying to do what.  Itempas wasn't trying to get the soul, for example; he didn't even know the soul was in Yeine until Kurue told him (not long before the events of the novel).  Itempas didn't *care* about the soul, really.  Let me see if I can explain.  It helps if you consider the various characters' motives, not just the actions they took.

 

This was Kurue's plan:  to give Enefa's soul to Itempas, without letting her fellow Enefadeh know of her betrayal in advance (because they would kill her), and in a way that would make her look good in Itempas' eyes so he would set her free.  Also, without making the Arameri realize she was rebelling against them (because then they might have interfered with her plans, or tortured her to find out what she was up to, or who knows what else).

 

This was Itempas' plan:  to be near Nahadoth.  Loneliness is his prime motivator.  Also, his goal was to manipulate Nahadoth into finally giving in to him, so they could be together again.  Making Nahadoth suffer was his long-term plan.  Getting one of the Enefadeh to betray the rest wasn't something he'd initially planned, but when he realized Kurue was ready to rebel, he decided to take advantage of it.  By removing Nahadoth's support system (i.e., the other Enefadeh), and killing his other lovers to make him despair, Itempas hoped to break Naha's spirit and encourage him to capitulate.

 

This was Dekarta's plan:  to find out whether Yeine killed Kinneth.  He could've just killed her on the strength of his suspicions -- but because he loved Kinneth, he wanted proof.  Yeine is very much like him, in this respect; they both wanted to know the truth of Kinneth's death.

 

Dekarta wouldn't have had any reason to summon Yeine to Sky if Kinneth hadn't died.  He had already decided to let Kinneth live her own life.  Itempas would have had no reason to kill Yeine if the Enefadeh hadn't put Enefa's soul into her -- and if Nahadoth hadn't loved her, which triggered the old jealousy. 

 

Kurue didn't have to wait 'til Yeine and the Stone were in the same room; she could've killed Yeine at any point after Yeine got to Sky.  But that would have a) made the other Enefadeh and the Arameri suspicious, and b) pissed off Itempas, who would've lost the chance to make Nahadoth despair a little more.  She needed to keep Itempas happy so he would set her free.  Basically she was playing Itempas against the other Enefadeh, using the Arameri (including Kinneth and Yeine) as her pawns.

 

I know this is convoluted, but does that clarify things at all?

 

Nora

Thanks for responding, It's late and I just got back home so please excuse any typos.

 

 

So, exactly why was Kinneth's killed then? I thought it was to set up the scenario whereby the soul of Enefa would be available to be destroyed by Itempas as it lingered near the body of Yeine? If that's so, are you saying that Kurue purposely killed Kinneth so she could set the whole thing up and somehow please Itempas thereby winning her freedom? If that is so, then I don't understand certain passages in the book on p. 373, which occurs after Itempas has emerged from Viraine as follows:

____________________

 

"Viraine,"...(Dekarta says), "You were ...part of him?"

 

Itempas lets him flounder to silence, then says, "Since your daughter left Sky."

 

Dekarta looks over at Kurue. "You knew this?"

 

She inclines her head, regal. "Not at first. But Viraine came to me one day and let me know that I need not be damned to this Earthly hell for all eternity. Our father could still forgive us, if we proved ourselves loyal." She glance over at Itempas, and even her dignity cannot hide her anxiety. She knows how fickle his favor can be. "Even then I wasn't certain though I suspected. that was when I decided on my plan."

 

(Dekarata responds.) "But...that means..." Dekarta pauses then, realization-anger-resignation flickering across his face in quick succession. I can guess his thoughts: Bright Itempas orchestrated Kinneth's death.    (Emphasis added.)

 

_______________

 

Note, Yeine's statement that Itempas orchestrated Kinneth's death is never refuted within the text and is supported by Dekarta's reactions.

 

If Itempas didn't know about the soul of Enefa being placed inside Yeine, then why did he orchestrate Kinneth's death? 

 

Also, why would Kurue hold back the part about Enefa's soul being placed inside Yeine? And, if Kurue didn't hold back that knowledge from Viraine/Itempas, then Itempas knew about Enefa's soul and chose to take the risk of bringing together Enefa's soul and the stone which held the last of Enefa's power. (In any case, Viraine/Itempas certainly knew about Enefa's soul when he stabbed Yeine to prevent her from holding the stone which means that he must have taken the risk of bringing together the stone and soul of Enefa.)  

 

Furthermore, regardless of whether it was Itempas or Kurue who orchestrated the whole tower room scenario, one of them apparently relied upon a far from certain response in Dekarta (of sending for Yeine and using her for the family sacrifice rather than killing her outright or continuing to ignore her); and, also took the risk of bringing the stone (which held the power of Enefa) in close proximity to the soul of Enefa hidden within the body of Yeine. 

Inspired Bibliophile
Nelsmom
Posts: 2,628
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisin

I haven't been reading the posts because I didn't want the book spoiled for me. I just got it from the library and will post my feelings when I am more into the book.  I know I'm late to the party but others got the book before me and I had to wait my turn.

 

Toni

Toni L. Chapman
Everyone needs some Tender Loving Care