The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms: Pages 140-238

[paulgoatallen]

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pen21 wrote:

Paul it is hard to stop after that first section.

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Pen:

You have no idea! I'm going to read ahead anyway – and shut my mouth on this thread! – because I want to write my Monday blog on The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms. The blogs are read by more mainstream readers and I really think that this novel would appeal to just about anyone who enjoys a great story. I'm loving this book.

Paul

[Nadine]

Schedule:

Well now that we have a header for the next reading section, why don't we consider reading the next section over the weekend and open up the next discussion under the heading Pages 140-238. Those who are behind can clearly tell from the header that it is the next section and avoid those posts until they are ready.

One Hundred Thousand Kingdoms
Table of Contents

First week of March - 139 pages
1. Grandfather...1
2. The Other Sky...13
3. Darkness...24
4. Magician...35
5. Chaos...50
6. Alliance...56
7. Love...74
8. Cousin...82
9. Memories...99
10. Family...107
11. Mother...123

Section 2: Pages 140-238 - 98 pages

12. Sanity...140
13. Ransom...150
14. The Walking Dead...167
15. Hatred...177

16. Sar-enna-nem 187

17. Relief...207
18. The Oubliette...226

Section 3: Pages 239-302 - 63 pages

19. Diamonds...239
20. The Arena...253
21. First Love...272
22. Such Rage...287

Section 4: Pages 303-344 - 41 pages

23. Selfishness...303
24. If I Ask...316
25. A Chance...324

Final Section - 53 pages

26. The Ball...345
27. The Ritual of Succession...357
28. Twilight and Dawn...368
29. The Three...381

[Nadine]

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Melhay wrote:

I was thinking on the other end of the spectrum.  I think they would tell them to keep lights on to protect them from Nahadoth and to worship Bright to leave them on.  BUT, I think the underlaying meaning is with the lights on Bright will see and hear everything.  He will know who is plotting against him.  He will know the way of his world.  He will maintain his control over everything so the Enefadeh don't rise and leave their prisons.

Which now makes me think on who is the good and who is the bad?

Is the god of Bright really the good guy? Could the Enefadeh be the ones who are on the good side?

Why are the Enefadeh thought to be so evil? Why would they kill people? What are we missing so far in the theories and ideas behind the Gods? I am going to have to look back through for this idea and chart it.

---

I'm having the same problem, Melissa. I started out with one set of assumptions and now I'm not sure. My gut feeling is that we are in for a lot of surprises and a lot of our initial assumptions on who are the baddies and who are the goodies is going to change.

[paulgoatallen]

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Nadine wrote:

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Melhay wrote:

I was thinking on the other end of the spectrum.  I think they would tell them to keep lights on to protect them from Nahadoth and to worship Bright to leave them on.  BUT, I think the underlaying meaning is with the lights on Bright will see and hear everything.  He will know who is plotting against him.  He will know the way of his world.  He will maintain his control over everything so the Enefadeh don't rise and leave their prisons.

Which now makes me think on who is the good and who is the bad?

Is the god of Bright really the good guy? Could the Enefadeh be the ones who are on the good side?

Why are the Enefadeh thought to be so evil? Why would they kill people? What are we missing so far in the theories and ideas behind the Gods? I am going to have to look back through for this idea and chart it.

---

I'm having the same problem, Melissa. I started out with one set of assumptions and now I'm not sure. My gut feeling is that we are in for a lot of surprises and a lot of our initial assumptions on who are the baddies and who are the goodies is going to change.

---

I think this could in many ways be the crux of the storyline – as well as a pretty powerful allegory. It's all about perception. I mean, look at America. Most Americans, I'd guess, look at ourselves as "the good guys" while that perspective is very different in other areas of the world. It's in politics, religion, sports – if you're not "us" then you're "them"and thus perceived as bad....The nonbelievers are called "darklings," correct? How do you think they they perceive the Arameri?

This may also tie in with the theme of change – or redemption. Just because a character may be perceived as evil – the Nightlord – doesn't necessarily mean that that character cannot change.

Paul

[Nadine]

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NKJemisin wrote:

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Nadine wrote:

You seem to have a strong background in mythology. You have stated  that various world myths inspired you generally. But often writers retell old myths in a different way. In defining the gods and their relationships with the humans, were you inspired by any particular myths and, if so, what were they? And in the overall structure of your book and/or trilogy, are you following a general mythic structure such as a hero quest, twelve labors etc.?

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Inspired by myths -- all of the ones I mentioned above.  =)  I grew up reading mythology; I actually preferred it to the fantasy fiction of the time.  So a lot of it tends to infuse my work, even the stuff that's not epic fantasy.  As for the overall structure of the trilogy -- the first book is essentially a gothic mystery, the second is an urban fantasy, and the third is kind of an ironic bildungsroman.  (Book 3's protagonist is Sieh, and the story centers on him suddenly and inexplicably beginning to grow up, against his will.)  This wasn't really intentional; I'm just letting each story become what it wants to become.  But the overall plot of the trilogy does have a mythic semblance, and I can't tell you what that is 'til you're done reading the first book.  =)

Nora

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Darn! You are on to me. I thought I could sneakily pry some hints from you. If you cited a particular myth, I would read up on it and use it as a guide to speculation.

But that is some teaser:

As for the overall structure of the trilogy -- the first book is essentially a gothic mystery, the second is an urban fantasy, and the third is kind of an ironic bildungsroman.  (Book 3's protagonist is Sieh, and the story centers on him suddenly and inexplicably beginning to grow up, against his will.)

But it is interesting to know that the first story is a Gothic Mystery because that is exactly how we are treating it. We are following th clues. The closest thing I can think of to a butler is T'vril.

But the shift in form of the rest of the trilogy is very interesting. It does make each book a distinctive stand-alone but they are tied together. And each being told from a different person's veiwpoint strikes me as a fastinating approach.

[Nadine]

You may have hit something very significant here, Paul. Nora is telling the story in each book from a different person's perspective.

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Paul Wrote

I think this could in many ways be the crux of the storyline – as well as a pretty powerful allegory. It's all about perception. I mean, look at America. Most Americans, I'd guess, look at ourselves as "the good guys" while that perspective is very different in other areas of the world. It's in politics, religion, sports – if you're not "us" then you're "them"and thus perceived as bad....The nonbelievers are called "darklings," correct? How do you think they they perceive the Arameri?

This may also tie in with the theme of change – or redemption. Just because a character may be perceived as evil – the Nightlord – doesn't necessarily mean that that character cannot change.

Paul

---

[Nadine]

Viraine

There is one other character that I don't "think" we have discussed in depth yet and that is Viraine. Nora put him second on her character list right after Yeine and before any of the gods. I think he may be a major mover in all of this. His unique position is that he is a Scrivener and can read the language of the gods and probably knows a lot that the other humans don't know. He seems to have a plan of his own and I think it envolves Yeine. It may be running counter to the god's plan since they were pretty firm in telling Yeine not to tell Viraine about the "god-mark."

[Nadine]

Ya know, we seem to have lost our most obvious villians -- Scrimina and Relad. They were announced as the bad guys from the start since the three contenders had to kill each other to obtain the throne. I don't think they are fizzled or forgotten. But they certainly haven't participated much yet. We may have yet another "plan" going with each of them. Of course they are mere humans with simplistic motives (so far) so they are not as intreging as the gods, but who knows. There may be some surprises there.

I think the next 98 pages are going to be full of interesting discoveries and move the plot rapidly forward.

---

Nadine wrote:

---

Melhay wrote:

I was thinking on the other end of the spectrum.  I think they would tell them to keep lights on to protect them from Nahadoth and to worship Bright to leave them on.  BUT, I think the underlaying meaning is with the lights on Bright will see and hear everything.  He will know who is plotting against him.  He will know the way of his world.  He will maintain his control over everything so the Enefadeh don't rise and leave their prisons.

Which now makes me think on who is the good and who is the bad?

Is the god of Bright really the good guy? Could the Enefadeh be the ones who are on the good side?

Why are the Enefadeh thought to be so evil? Why would they kill people? What are we missing so far in the theories and ideas behind the Gods? I am going to have to look back through for this idea and chart it.

---

I'm having the same problem, Melissa. I started out with one set of assumptions and now I'm not sure. My gut feeling is that we are in for a lot of surprises and a lot of our initial assumptions on who are the baddies and who are the goodies is going to change.

---

[Melhay]

---

paulgoatallen wrote:

---

Nadine wrote:

---

Melhay wrote:

I was thinking on the other end of the spectrum.  I think they would tell them to keep lights on to protect them from Nahadoth and to worship Bright to leave them on.  BUT, I think the underlaying meaning is with the lights on Bright will see and hear everything.  He will know who is plotting against him.  He will know the way of his world.  He will maintain his control over everything so the Enefadeh don't rise and leave their prisons.

Which now makes me think on who is the good and who is the bad?

Is the god of Bright really the good guy? Could the Enefadeh be the ones who are on the good side?

Why are the Enefadeh thought to be so evil? Why would they kill people? What are we missing so far in the theories and ideas behind the Gods? I am going to have to look back through for this idea and chart it.

---

I'm having the same problem, Melissa. I started out with one set of assumptions and now I'm not sure. My gut feeling is that we are in for a lot of surprises and a lot of our initial assumptions on who are the baddies and who are the goodies is going to change.

---

I think this could in many ways be the crux of the storyline – as well as a pretty powerful allegory. It's all about perception. I mean, look at America. Most Americans, I'd guess, look at ourselves as "the good guys" while that perspective is very different in other areas of the world. It's in politics, religion, sports – if you're not "us" then you're "them"and thus perceived as bad....The nonbelievers are called "darklings," correct? How do you think they they perceive the Arameri?

This may also tie in with the theme of change – or redemption. Just because a character may be perceived as evil – the Nightlord – doesn't necessarily mean that that character cannot change.

Paul

_____________________________________________________________________________________

After I posted this post last night I thought on it today.  I see this point Paul.  I started to think, as I say good and bad, I wonder if it is not a matter of good or bad - but more of opinion or view.  One may see bad but it is a different opinion they may not agree with.  This is kind of the feeling we got with Mistborn, in the end the Lord Ruler was doing what he felt was right even though others saw it as evil - to keep the real "evil" at bay.  There was really no "evil" person in the end but different opinions on how it should have been handled.

[Melhay]

---

Nadine wrote:

Viraine

There is one other character that I don't "think" we have discussed in depth yet and that is Viraine. Nora put him second on her character list right after Yeine and before any of the gods. I think he may be a major mover in all of this. His unique position is that he is a Scrivener and can read the language of the gods and probably knows a lot that the other humans don't know. He seems to have a plan of his own and I think it envolves Yeine. It may be running counter to the god's plan since they were pretty firm in telling Yeine not to tell Viraine about the "god-mark."

---

Don't forget the scrivener can do and understand magic.  They are the ones to help when the gods are away and come up with other ways around the castle and such.

[Melhay]

Nadine Wrote:

Ya know, we seem to have lost our most obvious villians -- Scrimina and Relad. They were announced as the bad guys from the start since the three contenders had to kill each other to obtain the throne. I don't think they are fizzled or forgotten. But they certainly haven't participated much yet. We may have yet another "plan" going with each of them. Of course they are mere humans with simplistic motives (so far) so they are not as intreging as the gods, but who knows. There may be some surprises there.

I think the next 98 pages are going to be full of interesting discoveries and move the plot rapidly forward.

_________________________________________-

I think we have just met these two and have a long way to go.  I believe we are set up for Scrimina to get at Yeine through her home land, Darren.  We are expecting her to do something with the trade going in or out of there.  We really haven't received much on these two.  I think we may get more on them in the next section or two.

I do have to say I am curious as to what is going to happen with the competition for the throne.  I was thinking these three would be at each others throats while around Sky.  But this in not the case, even with Scrimina setting Naha on Yeine - it was not to hurt her.  I am curious that they have not gone at each other yet, even to learn strengths and weaknesses in order to manipulate them when needed to win.

I am starting to think there is a "contest" that they will have to do infront of the council.  BUT, what is this contest?  Yeine should be thinking on this to see what it is she needs to do to save her life.  Is it physical battle?  Is it in an arena or do they go about their days at each other?  I am curious to see where we go with this part as well.

[Nadine]

Melissa Wrote:

After I posted this post last night I thought on it today.  I see this point Paul.  I started to think, as I say good and bad, I wonder if it is not a matter of good or bad - but more of opinion or view.  One may see bad but it is a different opinion they may not agree with.  This is kind of the feeling we got with Mistborn, in the end the Lord Ruler was doing what he felt was right even though others saw it as evil - to keep the real "evil" at bay.  There was really no "evil" person in the end but different opinions on how it should have been handled.

===========================================================

The more I think on this the more I think this will end up being the point of view. Just look at the Arameri. They started out (and Lord Ruler is a good example) with the intention of building a better world after the God Wars. But in order to do this they had to be pretty ruthless. There are no utopias. Everything has to be done at the sacrifice of something or someone else. What is good for some is always evil for others.

Now, Nora, this is something you could personally expand on a bit more without giving anything away. Every author brings a certain philosophy about things and the way they should be into the story.

[Nadine]

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Melhay wrote:

---

Nadine wrote:

Viraine

There is one other character that I don't "think" we have discussed in depth yet and that is Viraine. Nora put him second on her character list right after Yeine and before any of the gods. I think he may be a major mover in all of this. His unique position is that he is a Scrivener and can read the language of the gods and probably knows a lot that the other humans don't know. He seems to have a plan of his own and I think it envolves Yeine. It may be running counter to the god's plan since they were pretty firm in telling Yeine not to tell Viraine about the "god-mark."

---

Don't forget the scrivener can do and understand magic.  They are the ones to help when the gods are away and come up with other ways around the castle and such.

---

That's right. He does have a real advantage here. Now all we have to do is figure out what his part in all this is. I don't think we have enough pieces on him yet to really make any speculation. I just wanted to bring him to the front while we are still discussing characters. He is going to be a major player.

[Nadine]

---

Melhay wrote:

Nadine Wrote:

Ya know, we seem to have lost our most obvious villians -- Scrimina and Relad. They were announced as the bad guys from the start since the three contenders had to kill each other to obtain the throne. I don't think they are fizzled or forgotten. But they certainly haven't participated much yet. We may have yet another "plan" going with each of them. Of course they are mere humans with simplistic motives (so far) so they are not as intreging as the gods, but who knows. There may be some surprises there.

I think the next 98 pages are going to be full of interesting discoveries and move the plot rapidly forward.

_________________________________________-

I think we have just met these two and have a long way to go.  I believe we are set up for Scrimina to get at Yeine through her home land, Darren.  We are expecting her to do something with the trade going in or out of there.  We really haven't received much on these two.  I think we may get more on them in the next section or two.

I do have to say I am curious as to what is going to happen with the competition for the throne.  I was thinking these three would be at each others throats while around Sky.  But this in not the case, even with Scrimina setting Naha on Yeine - it was not to hurt her.  I am curious that they have not gone at each other yet, even to learn strengths and weaknesses in order to manipulate them when needed to win.

I am starting to think there is a "contest" that they will have to do infront of the council.  BUT, what is this contest?  Yeine should be thinking on this to see what it is she needs to do to save her life.  Is it physical battle?  Is it in an arena or do they go about their days at each other?  I am curious to see where we go with this part as well.

---

Very good point. I think you are right. If I recall correctly "the rites of succession" had never been known or witnessed. So we have yet to learn exactly what that is all about. We also don't know why Yeine was brought into the mix. Maybe they needed three and she was the next best choice. It could be a battle but maybe it is some sort of other test where each has to accomplish some tasks. that is traditionally mythical.

[Melhay]

---

Nadine wrote:

Melissa Wrote:

After I posted this post last night I thought on it today.  I see this point Paul.  I started to think, as I say good and bad, I wonder if it is not a matter of good or bad - but more of opinion or view.  One may see bad but it is a different opinion they may not agree with.  This is kind of the feeling we got with Mistborn, in the end the Lord Ruler was doing what he felt was right even though others saw it as evil - to keep the real "evil" at bay.  There was really no "evil" person in the end but different opinions on how it should have been handled.

===========================================================

The more I think on this the more I think this will end up being the point of view. Just look at the Arameri. They started out (and Lord Ruler is a good example) with the intention of building a better world after the God Wars. But in order to do this they had to be pretty ruthless. There are no utopias. Everything has to be done at the sacrifice of something or someone else. What is good for some is always evil for others.

Now, Nora, this is something you could personally expand on a bit more without giving anything away. Every author brings a certain philosophy about things and the way they should be into the story.

---

Now that I read your post here, I think there was a section where Dekartha says he needs to be like the "darkling" whom they kill for believing in the "wrong" gods for the times - being who is leading and that is not the one they believe in.  I could be wrong, so please let me know, I think Dekartha told Yeine they needed to be like that man they killed for not believing in their god in order to not have a complete up rising and distrubance in the land.  Or I guess this would be the CHANGE ?

[NKJemisin]

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Nadine wrote:

Melissa Wrote:

After I posted this post last night I thought on it today.  I see this point Paul.  I started to think, as I say good and bad, I wonder if it is not a matter of good or bad - but more of opinion or view.  One may see bad but it is a different opinion they may not agree with.  This is kind of the feeling we got with Mistborn, in the end the Lord Ruler was doing what he felt was right even though others saw it as evil - to keep the real "evil" at bay.  There was really no "evil" person in the end but different opinions on how it should have been handled.

===========================================================

The more I think on this the more I think this will end up being the point of view. Just look at the Arameri. They started out (and Lord Ruler is a good example) with the intention of building a better world after the God Wars. But in order to do this they had to be pretty ruthless. There are no utopias. Everything has to be done at the sacrifice of something or someone else. What is good for some is always evil for others.

Now, Nora, this is something you could personally expand on a bit more without giving anything away. Every author brings a certain philosophy about things and the way they should be into the story.

---

Hi Nadine,

I've kind of mentioned this already, but it was mixed in with other things so easy to miss.  Basically, I don't think anyone can mandate/legislate morality.  You can encourage, using incentives and disincentives, and religion, and ethics discussions, and so on -- but the only way to force people to change their behavior is to change the people themselves, against their will.  Which is immoral in and of itself, IMO. You can't make people "good", in other words.

Nora

[carmen22]

Well, I just wanted to let you guys know that I made it to ch. 8 last night so I'm almost at the breaking point and should be tonight. I have totally been sucked into this world and I'm loving it. I don't know though there is a lot to go through here. Wow. I guess it looks as though you are moving on as well, so should I even stop at this breaking point?  I'm completely lost in this thread right now. We are only five days into March! Geez! lol. Looks like fun.   I just wanted to let you guys know where I stand.

Krista

[Nadine]

carmen22 wrote:

Well, I just wanted to let you guys know that I made it to ch. 8 last night so I'm almost at the breaking point and should be tonight. I have totally been sucked into this world and I'm loving it. I don't know though there is a lot to go through here. Wow. I guess it looks as though you are moving on as well, so should I even stop at this breaking point?  I'm completely lost in this thread right now. We are only five days into March! Geez! lol. Looks like fun.   I just wanted to let you guys know where I stand.

Krista

Krista, why don't you just make some of your own observations when you reach the stopping point. Then read through our posts for your own edification and respond only to those general ones that catch your interest. Then move on so you can jump in when we get the next section going.

[paulgoatallen]

Well, I'm up into the 200s now so I won't talk about specifics but it occured to me last night that this plot is very much like a chess game into which Yeine has been dropped into. What side is she on? Who is white and who is black? And although some characters seem to be very powerful – the Nightlord, Scimina, etc. – are they just pawns for something, or something, else?

It's almost like both sides are trying to make Yeine their weapon but she remains gray throughout....

Paul

[paulgoatallen]

Nora:

I just finished The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms – bravo! I'll not post my review here yet since we're still dissecting the meaty midde but I do have a few questions:

1. You listed Octavia E. Butler as your "own personal grandmaster." (I do see similarities between your religion in THTK and her Earthseed religion... very cool!) Why do you think more Afro-American women don't write SF/fantasy?

2. Did Butler's Earthseed religion inspire any themes for your novel?

All that you touch
You Change.
All that you Change
Changes you.
The only lasting truth
Is Change.
God
Is Change.

(Parable of the Sower, 1993)