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EinsteinPD
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Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

If you are interested in dixcussing whether Mars or the Moon is preferable for an off-world colony, please reply to this thread, thanks. I believe the Moon, with its lower gravity and nearness to Earth, would be better, two people have already walked on the Moon. But The Mars Society strongly favors Mars. The question regarding which would be preferable, is open. I await replies.

 

Apollo-11-landing-site.png

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ManuelGarcia
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Why should it be an "or"?  I think the optimal solution is go to the moon first, then get it settled. Once settled, its resources could augment resources from Earth to send people to Mars.

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orb9220
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?


ManuelGarcia wrote:

Why should it be an "or"?  I think the optimal solution is go to the moon first, then get it settled. Once settled, its resources could augment resources from Earth to send people to Mars.


+1 as Moon development would help develop fine tune survivability technologies.  And much needed resources on moon would help earth & mars.

 

Tho their too late.. As had my bags packed for moving to mars since the 70's. Now know I will be buried here on earth and not on Basoom!

.

 

"All I Know is...Last Night the Tele-Tubbies came out of the wall and Held Me Down while they put Devices in my Head!"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orb9220/
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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

ManuelGarcia, thank you for the Post. I said "or" because the limited resources available would require one or the other. I agree that the optimal solution is to go to the Moon first, but not everyone agrees with this. The Mars Society, and other Mars colonization groups, have large faithful followings. To my knowledge the Moon has only one, me. However, once the Gateway space station is in stable orbit around the Moon, it will greatly facilitate movement between Earth and Moon, and no doubt also facilitate movement between Earth and Mars later.

 

It so happens I recently published an ebook titled "MOON Base Colony" that follows a Moon colony from the Apollo 11 mission, through 10 centuries or 20 generations of living on the Moon. I try to describe the many obstacles, and how they will be overcome, and the many changes due to living on the Moon. Just to confirm the lack of interest in this subject, not one copy has been read by anyone other than me.

 

No doubt Earth is by far the best place to be now, but conditions of life here are deteriorating, and who knows what the future wil,bring? I expect that over time the Moon and/or Mars will look increasingly attractive,,. The pictures are of a Lunar bootprint, the Apollo 11 launch, and my ebook cover.

 

220px-Apollo_11_bootprint.jpg   160px-Apollo_11_Launch2.jpg   

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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Thank you for your Post orb9220. If you look at conditions on Mars, with its very thin unbreathable atmosphere, low surface temperature and reduced solar radiation, you may come to realize that having to stay here on Earth is not such a bad deal after all. The early colonists on both the Moon and Mars will have to live under quite adverse conditions. I try to describe this for Moon colonists.

 

Yes, once the Moon is settled, its resources will become increasingly available to benefit humanity. In my book bariatric and cardiac patients benefit from the Moon's low gravity.

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ManuelGarcia
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Well Newt Gingrich agrees with you.  Before he dropped out of the election, one of his goals was to build a moon base by the year 2020. See Newt's Right: We Should Build A Permanent Moon Base

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Omnigeek
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Answering this questions forces some assumptions.

 

If you assume proximity to Earth is a bonus for quick transit, resupply, etc. then you HAVE to pick the Moon.  If you're looking for easier adaptation for colonization then Mars's gravity (or lack thereof) will require less adaptation and colonies can sprawl across the surface rather than having to tunnel.

 

Personally, I think the long and infrequent transit times make Mars too hard to pull off as the first colony so I'd opt for a Moon base that can start solar smelting and construction with lunar ores and use that as a staging point to get to Mars and the asteroids.

 

The first colony will almost certainly want or need something we didn't foresee and I'd much rather know said item can arrive within a week rather than wait for a favorable alignment.  Ever spend a six hour airplane flight next to someone you detest?  Try being cooped up in a colony ship for six MONTHS with someone you vilify!

 

Creating a viable business case for a lunar colony will bootstrap the launch and space construction industries thereby lowering the cost of truly going interplanetary.

Currently reading: Destiny of the Republic, The Heritage of Shannara, Lonely Planet: Melbourne & Victoria
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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Omnigeek thank you for your Post, it touches on some important points. Once the Gateway space station in orbit about the Moon (proposed by NASA in 2012) becomes operational, transport between Earth and Moon will be greatly facilitated. Re adaptation for colonization, this is a very important point. In my book I follow the MOON Base Colony from the Apollo 11 pre-history, to its beginning in early 2100 AD, through many changes, until 3100 AD. By 3100 AD (20 generations) the inhabitants look very different from people on Earth.

 

The lunar colony makes money a number of ways, one being bariatric and cardiac patients who enjoy the 1/6 gravity. Also, it mines diamonds. Bu the colony is basically self-sufficient, everything is recycled, and I describe how it all works, in detail. To illistrate the almost complete lack of interest in a Moon Base Colony, no one has read this book except me. It is also available on Amazon.com with its 7 day free return policy- no reader. The media have made many movies about Mars. Mars has the pizazz. The Moon doesn't. But the Moon is much more feasible.

 

Regarding "going interplanetary" my book "Starship To New Earth NOW" genre Relativity, Astrophysics discusses the starship, and colonization of other star system Earth type worlds. If the subject interests you, you should read it.

 

Thanks again for your Post.

 

Phillip Duke Ph.D.

220px-Apollo_11_bootprint.jpg

Apollo 11 Lunar bootprint. Two men have walked on the Moon. It will be a long time before anyone walks on Mars.

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deesy58
Posts: 2,486
Registered: ‎01-22-2012

Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

[ Edited ]

EinsteinPD wrote:
"Two men have walked on the Moon. It will be a long time before anyone walks on Mars."

I believe you might be mistaken.  My research showed that more than two men have walked on the moon:

 

"A total of 12 astronauts have walked on the moon. They were all part of NASA Apollo missions.

20 Jul 1969 � Neil Armstrong, Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin
19 Nov 1969 � Charles (Pete) Conrad, Alan Bean
05 Feb 1971 � Alan Shepard, Edgar Mitchell
30 Jul 1971 � James Irwin, David Scott
21-23 Apr 1972 � Charles Duke, John Young
11-13 Dec 1972 � Harrison Schmitt, Eugene Cernan"

 

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/3894

 

Is this correct?

 

 

 

 

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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

deesy58, thank you for the Post, I replied yesterday but it's gone, so will reply necessarily more briefly now.

 

You are correct, 24 men have orbited the Moon, 12 have walked on it, and 6 have driven the lunar rover on it. I am proud that a Duke walked on the Moon April 21-23, 1972. It would be nice if this Duke's ebook MOON Base Colony had a reader, besides himself. Amazon.com has a 7 day free return policy, and if anyone is really interested and cannot afford the ebook, I will gift it to that person. Just email me and let me know. drpduke@wmconnect.com

 

 

 

 

 

NASA_Apollo_17_Lunar_Roving_Vehicle.jpg

The lunar Moon rover in action.

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deesy58
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

In any event, I do not believe that we will see any sort of off-world colonization of any type or in any place for at least 50, and probably more, years. 

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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

I do not believe that we will ever see "any sort of off-world colonization of any type..." for two reasons,

 

It is an expensive endeavor requiring surplus wealth, and such wealth is declining world-wide. And,

I expect that the combination of climate change induced famines. along with seacoast floodings and increasing shortages of petroleum, will  induce economic stresses resulting in WW3. Any survivors will be far too busy trying to stay alive, to think about anything else.

 

The ebook "MOON Base Colony" is my futuristic wishful thinking. It is available from both BandN.com and Amazon.com, and the fact that it has not sold a single copy (price $3.99) shows the lack of interest in "any sort of off-world colonization of any type...".

 

However, just because we don't make it to the stars, does not mean that no one else will. Or hasn't already.

 

images cattle mute.jpg

Cattle being abducted prior to mutilation. See "Sherlock Holmes and the Mutilated Cattle" by Phillip Duke Ph.D. Available from BarnesandNoble.com and Amazon.com.

 

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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

The illustration is an artist's rendering, not a photograph. However, it is based on eye-witness accounts. Possibly interested persons are referred to the large literature on cattle mutilations, which occur world-wide.

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ManuelGarcia
Posts: 83
Registered: ‎12-25-2009

Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Lack of sales, might not be caused by lack of interest.  It could be some people prefer nonfiction about a lunar colony.  Some might prefer other authors. As you might suspect by my B&N "handle", I like "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress".  After all these years it still seems to be selling.  Amazon shows its rank as  #5,613 in Books which isn't bad for a book written in 1966, considering how may different  books Amazon carries.

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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

ManuelGarcia, thanks for the Post. How can "some people prefer non-fiction about a lunar colony" when there is no lunar colony? Then isn't everything written on the subject fiction?

 

In my book I discuss the pioneering factual Apollo 11 Moon Mission. It and the following Apollo Moon Missions are the closest we have come so far to a Moon Colony.

 

The fact that you are apparently interested in the subject of a Moon Colony, but not enough to get a copy of my new book on this subject, shows me that there is very little real interest, with you and  overall.

 

As for other authors being preferred, my other books are selling, but not Moon Base Colony.

 

It seems to me that most everyone has the imptression that the Moon's very harsh surface conditions make a colony there very difficult. My book attempts to address all the difficulties (and advantages) of a Moon colony. I go into detail regarding how it would work, the affects of living on the Moon for generations, etc. Fiction, but based as best I can on science fact.

 

So far I wrote one book about star travel and colonizing other Earth type worlds, and one about the Moon and colonizing it. The star travel book sells a (very) little, the Moon colony book not at all. That's what I call very little, and no, interest. FYI my best selling book is "HEROIN God's Own Medicine." Now THERE'S a subject of interest, based on its sales. It sells so well I wrote a second book on the subject. IF you like reading Horror, Addiction read them. $3.99 each.

 

syringe.jpg    syringe2.jpg

These books are not for the squeamish. You have been warned!

 

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ManuelGarcia
Posts: 83
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Fiction is defined as a literary work whose content is produced by the imagination.

 

This applies to works that include things like building a lunar colony which might actually happen some day. But the main part of most fiction is the characters which are completely made up.

However something written about how to do something before it happens can be non-fiction.

Examples

Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the 21st Century published by Lunar and Planetary Institute. They have many other documents on their Exploration Strategies page.

 

Web pages

 

 A Practical Plan for a Lunar Colony

10 Pros (and Cons) of Colonizing the Moon

Lunar Colony Economics and Construction

 

Just because I and others don't buy your fictional story about a lunar colony doesn't mean we aren't intersted in the possiblity of a real lunar colony. 

 

 

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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

ManuelGarcia, thanks for your Post. My book "Starship To New Earth NOW" was strongly criticized because I presented it as science fact, not fiction. I agree with you, not the critics, on this. I consider it science fact. But you and I are very outnumbered on this.

 

According to your statement my book "MOON Base Colony" "can be non-fiction." Then why do you call it "your fictional story?" I again state as fact that IF there were any real interest, there would be some book sales. IMO perhaps you only think you are interested. Or, perhaps you are unhappy with me due to our prior posts?

 

I did not read up on what was recently written on this subject, to avoid the possibility of unconsciously using the work of others. Now I will look at the references you have posted, thanks.

 

Anyway, if you are possibly also interested in Heroin, my previous post lists two fiction books of mine on this subject, one of which HEROIN GOM is my best seller. Below is the cover of a non-fiction book of mine on the subject of Narcotics. I state it is very unusual for a new book on a subject of interest not to sell even one copy. I conclude that MOON Base s Colony's subject is not of interest.

 

Since you are obviously reluctant to shell out $2.99 to read MOON Base Colony, why not buy it from Amazon.com with a 7 day free return policy? Then if you want you can read it free, and give it a bad review, just as my Starship book based on Dr. Albert Einstein's great work was also reviewed with one star, and termed "Poppycock Science."

 

This thread is taking up my time, and it is going nowhere. If based on my posts and promo efforts there continues not to be enough interest ANYWHERE for the purchase of even one book, then I am just wasting my time. As I posted, I do not think we will ever have a Moon Colony. However, the subject interested me, and I wrote a book on it, which may well never sell a single copy, IMO due to lack of interest.

 

I better get back to work, and write on a subject people are very actively interested in, like drugs. And stop wasting my time on something like "MOON Base Colony" http://amazon.com/dp/B009LNGW3Q. All potential readers please remember, Amazon.com has a 7 day free return policy. Have a great day.

 

narcotics2.jpg

Harvesting opium with a knife. This book has 18 illustrations, and sells for $3.99.

 

 

 

 

 

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ManuelGarcia
Posts: 83
Registered: ‎12-25-2009

Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

[ Edited ]

Almost all fiction are stories where the characters are made up, or the events are made up or both.

 

Characters made up: “Gone with the wind”, events made up: “Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter” both: “The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress”

 

So why did I classify “MOON Base Colony” as fictional?  The description on B&N says “After experiencing Moon Base Colony through the eyes of its inhabitant Ann5”. Made up character means fiction.

 

As for "Starship To New Earth NOW" based on what I know about it I would classify it as nonfiction because it is a proposal like O’Neil’s book “The High Frontier: Human Colonies in Space.”  But just because a book is nonfiction doesn’t mean it is valid. An 18th century book on which diseases should be treated by bloodletting would be nonfiction but not valid. A book/article on how to build a perpetual motion engine would be nonfiction if the author truly believes it, but based on my knowledge of the laws of thermodynamics it isn’t valid and I wouldn’t read it. 

The same applies to "Starship To New Earth NOW". It appears that while you got Einstein’s equations correct, you ignored the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, or ideal rocket equation. This describes the motion of vehicles that follow the basic principle of a rocket.  Because if you had you would have discovered what others have. It is impossible to get much if any above 1% of the speed of light using fission for energy and water for propellant.   From this, and your comments I assume that you also didn’t study the known information about lunar colonies. So it isn’t the money that stops me from buying your book.

 

As “thread is taking up my time, and it is going nowhere”, it got off track when you said that lack of interest your books indicated a lack of interest in lunar colonies. I just tried to show the two aren’t related.

 

Back to the original question “Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?”  Answer “both” and maybe even O'Neill space colonies. This nothing to do with reading or not reading your books.

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Omnigeek
Posts: 885
Registered: ‎01-25-2011

Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

ManuelGarcia explains the fallacy in your logic quite well, i.e., lack of interest in your book does not imply lack of interest in the subject.  There are lots of sources for information on lunar colonies including a lot of Silver Age hard SF.

 

While I applaud your own interest in the subject, you might want to acquaint yourself with articles already written on the subject for the National Space Society (previously the L-5 Society and another organization that merged about 20 years ago), the Space Studies Institute, the US Space Foundation and the Planetary Society.  Some of the articles (particularly in NSS's Ad Astra) were also written by enthusiastic amateurs so have their own flaws but my point is that there's already a lot of information out there for those interested in the subject.

 

If you want to hook an audience, you need to demonstrate superb writing ability, hint at an engrossing tale or show you will educate them.  People like Heinlein or Asimov or Forward who are able to do all three in a single tale are rare.

Currently reading: Destiny of the Republic, The Heritage of Shannara, Lonely Planet: Melbourne & Victoria
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EinsteinPD
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Re: Off-world colony- Mars or the Moon?

Reply to both ManuelGarcia and Omnigeek:

 

Manuel Garcia, how many TV shows, motion pictures and books are there about people living on the Moon?  About people living on Mars? I rest my case. If YOU or anyone else were really  the least bit interested in the subject, at least one copy of this book would be sold. Or, in your case, possibly you are not interested, because I am the author? I know it is not easy to shell out 3.99 big ones- that is why I suggested Amazon.com's 7 day Free return policy. But even that is not enough to get you to take a good look at this book. And you still maintain the subject interests you. If so, then it's certain you won't look at it because I am the author- so be it.

 

Omnigeek, I said before I did not want to take a chance plagiarizing the work of others. Regarding my writing ability, you have no idea concerning it, because you never read anything of mine. Previoiusly you viciously attacked me personally on this Forum, and now you are telling me a Poster "explains the fallacy of my argument quite well," and you are giving me unsolicited advice on how to "hook an audience." Just how many books have you written, published and sold? When your number is anywhere near mine, THEN you can give me advice, and not before.

 

In closing on the subject of why my book "MOON Base Colony" has not sold, I state factually that based on the experience of millions of authors, no sales with a book that is reasonably well promoted, means no interest. Period. My book emphasizes the techniques and results of living in a completely closed (except for energy input) society, on the Moon, for 20 generations. What other book does that? None. What is the interest in that? None.

 

This thread via Omnigeek is moving in the negative direction of personally criticizing me, Manuel Garcia and I seem unable to make progress on this thread, and I do not have time for such. So I say good-bye and good luck to all. I have said enough on MOON Base Colony. The book is there, if anyone wants/dares to read it. A certain mind-set mind is required to read the work of a new author. It's more comfortable to reread the works of long-dead authors. A new author just might have new ideas, and new ideas can be mighty unsettling. Perhaps I can arrange a medal for bravery, to be awarded to the first person who reads "MOON Base Colony." Evidently that person will deserve it. After all, the book was written and published in time for Halloween!

 

Phil Duke Ph.D.

 

Dolly the sheep.jpg

          Dolly the Sheep.