SILM: Ainulindale

[Nadine]

Dagor wrote (transferred from Silmarillian thread)

"Ainulindale" synopsis, pp. 15-22:

Tolkien wrote several versions of the creation of his universe, so a good deal of the material found in "Ainulindale" will be repeated (often with variations) in later sections of "The Silmarillion." In this first description of his cosmogeny (universe-creation) Tolkien sketches the creation as originating with a single divine being, "Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar" (p. 15). Initially Eru creates the Ainur ("the Holy Ones" ) as the offspring of his mind, and through the medium of musical themes he communicates with them. Each of these Ainu (singular form of Ainur) knows a portion of Eru's mind, and sings about that portion. Eventually, the Ainur begin to weave their individual songs into a harmonic whole. What they sing becomes a choral "Great Music," and the Ainur are given a bit of the creative "Flame Imperishable" which allows their individual thoughts/ songs to become a physical reality.

At first the Great Music is harmonious, but one of the Ainur, Melkor, tries to impose his own will upon the general melody, interweaving "matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar" (p. 16). Discord arises from this presumption, and the Great Music falls apart as the competing themes of Melkor infect some of the other Ainur. Illuvatar quells this tumult, smiling, and starts a second Great Theme that reconciles the competing threads of music. But, again, Melkor's individuality is exercized, and he seeks to control the new theme, and the second Great Music collapses. A stern-faced Iluvatar halts this second discord, and begins a new, third theme. Once more, Melkor cannot bring himself to harmonize with the others, and Iluvatar, now wrathful, brings the dissonance to a close, "the Music ceased" (p. 17).

Now Iluvatar reveals to the Ainur that all they have sung has been woven into a form of Reality, a reality that finds its sole base in his own person, both the harmonic elements and the dissonance itself are therefore rooted only in the nature/ power of Eru. Iluvatar then shows the "representation" of the Music to the Ainur, a vision of a World (Arda) which they have made, a place where Time moves -- and so History is possible.

As the Ainur view the vision of the World, they see many things unfolding in it, things they have no pre-knowledge of, things they will forget. They see the creation and coming of the "Children of Iluvatar," apparently just Elves and Men at first. These Children seem to be largely independent of the Ainur, and never fully known by them; do they have the power of choice, the power to shape and follow their own destinies? Melkor at once wants to dominate and control these Children "and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills" (p. 18).

Iluvatar further reveals that all the discordance of Melkor has been altered by Eru so that, in the end, it actually enhances the beauty and poignancy of the World. Water can now be frozen by the extremes of Melkor's thought, hence the beauties of ice, frost, and snow come into existance; clouds and rain exist now because Melkor envisioned heat, the evaporative force; furthermore, the extreme heat from Melkor's thought, allows the beauty of geysers, of hot-spring pools, and the spouting fountains of red lava.

After viewing the World of their Music, the Ainur begin to desire it, wanting it to become more than a vision, wanting it to Be, that is, Be Real. Eru reads their desires, and grants them, with a single word of final, creative power -- he cries "Ea! Let these things Be!" (p. 20) and the universe of song becomes a physical reality of time and space, energy and matter through the agency of the Flame Imperishable. Those Ainur who wish it, may now enter this real world, but they are "contained and bounded in the world, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." (p. 20) The Ainur who thus enter the World (Arda) become its Powers, the Valar.

Once in the World (Arda), the Valar are bound to its history, and Melkor begins his struggle to dominate. In the primeval period of Arda's history, come the first battles between Melkor and the other Valar, with great upheavals of the geology of the World -- mountains being toppled, and valleys gouged, seas spilled as the earth is tormented, a whirling chaos. The foes of Melkor seek ever to create harmony, order, and security so that a stable platform might be present into which the Children of Iluvatar may be born. So that the Children might have a World in which they can flourish, "the Earth was fashioned and made firm" (p. 22)

Potential Questions: pick any one, or all to discuss. Alternatively, come up with questions of your own based on the material of this section.

1. Tolkien starts with a pre-existant, single god who is the only being responsible for the subsequent cosmic creation. How does this god, Eru, resemble the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic Creator God? How do they differ, and do you think JRRT meant his Eru to be the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God?

2. What is the purpose of this creation? Does Tolkien ever tell us "why" Eru creates his universe? Was he lonely? In comparison/ contrast: Why does the God of the biblical Genesis create his universe? In comparative mythologies, why do the other gods in other religions create their universes?

3. What do you think about the concept of "Genesis through Music?" Is it an effective literary device? Is "creation through music" a Judaeo-Christian-Islamic concept (compare Ainulindale with the book of Genesis)? Are there any other examples in world mythology wherein the Universe is created through the medium of Music?

4. What is the source of Conflict in JRRT's creation myth? Just who is Melkor, and why does he become the focus of Discord? Is he the only Ainur who exhibits "freedom of thought," the ability to think in a fashion that is independent/ contradictory of Eru? Is this "Discord" in Tolkien's creation synonymous with the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic concept of Evil? If Melkor is actually just a portion of Eru himself, does this mean Eru contains his own Evil? How does the concept of Discord/ Evil being a part of God himself, differ from the Roman Catholic, Augustinian interpretation of Evil being the mere lack/ absence of Good?

5. It seems that the creation of the physical world, and the initial "geological" war of the Valar is all in preparation for the eventual coming of the Children of Iluvatar. Why should these fragile, "mortal" beings be considered so important that the Valar would actually go to war in this fashion? Is Tolkien's universe "anthropocentric?" Do we have a similar "man-centered" universe in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition?

Message Edited by Dagor on 08-22-2008 03:34 PM

[Nadine]

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Dagor wrote (transferred from Silmarillian thread)

Potential Questions: pick any one, or all to discuss. Alternatively, come up with questions of your own based on the material of this section.

1. Tolkien starts with a pre-existant, single god who is the only being responsible for the subsequent cosmic creation. How does this god, Eru, resemble the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic Creator God? How do they differ, and do you think JRRT meant his Eru to be the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God?

2. What is the purpose of this creation? Does Tolkien ever tell us "why" Eru creates his universe? Was he lonely? In comparison/ contrast: Why does the God of the biblical Genesis create his universe? In comparative mythologies, why do the other gods in other religions create their universes?

3. What do you think about the concept of "Genesis through Music?" Is it an effective literary device? Is "creation through music" a Judaeo-Christian-Islamic concept (compare Ainulindale with the book of Genesis)? Are there any other examples in world mythology wherein the Universe is created through the medium of Music?

4. What is the source of Conflict in JRRT's creation myth? Just who is Melkor, and why does he become the focus of Discord? Is he the only Ainur who exhibits "freedom of thought," the ability to think in a fashion that is independent/ contradictory of Eru? Is this "Discord" in Tolkien's creation synonymous with the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic concept of Evil? If Melkor is actually just a portion of Eru himself, does this mean Eru contains his own Evil? How does the concept of Discord/ Evil being a part of God himself, differ from the Roman Catholic, Augustinian interpretation of Evil being the mere lack/ absence of Good?

5. It seems that the creation of the physical world, and the initial "geological" war of the Valar is all in preparation for the eventual coming of the Children of Iluvatar. Why should these fragile, "mortal" beings be considered so important that the Valar would actually go to war in this fashion? Is Tolkien's universe "anthropocentric?" Do we have a similar "man-centered" universe in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition?

Message Edited by Dagor on 08-22-2008 03:34 PM

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These are fantastic and thought-provoking questions. This may take a lot longer than a week! The Ainulindale itself is only about six pages. I think I will do my first reading tonight.

Just to throw a bit of trivia into the mix, does anyone know what "Ainulindale" means or does it mean nothing? 

[Nadine]

I noticed that B&N has the whole Ainulindale posted as a Silm excerpt. Even those of you who might not think you are interested in in the Silm might want to read this and participate in the first part of the discussion.

Ainulindale

Click "Read Excerpt" under the picture of the book. 

[lorien]

I don't know if anyone is interested in comparing the various evolutions of Tolkien's creation myth. I have found various versions in The Book of Lost Tales Part One, The Lost Road and Other Writings, and Morgoth's Ring. these are all part of the Histories series.

The one in Morgoth's Ring is refered to as Version "C" and it has been posted as a pdf file online. This is apparently considerTolkien's final version of this story. The details are mentioned in this Intro and Notes.

Ainulindale Morgoth's Ring

The interesting thing about these other versions is that Tolkien "plays the ancient history game" by tracing its authorship:

This was made by Rumil of Túna in the Elder Days.
It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa
to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.
To it are added the further words
that Pengoloð spoke at that time
concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani;
of which more is said hereafter.
These are the words that Pengoloð spake to Ælfwine concerning the beginning
of the World.
First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.

As I recall, all these stories, myths, and legends were passed on and documented by the elves.

Message Edited by lorien on 08-22-2008 08:21 PM

[Dagor]

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Nadine wrote:

These are fantastic and thought-provoking questions. This may take a lot longer than a week! The Ainulindale itself is only about six pages. I think I will do my first reading tonight.

Just to throw a bit of trivia into the mix, does anyone know what "Ainulindale" means or does it mean nothing? 

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Ainulindalë, like most "made-up" words in Tolkien's writing DOES have a specific meaning. Has anyone found it yet?

Meanwhile, I was directed to another thread where Orgulas proposed these, more general, introductory questions for the Ainulindalë. This second set may be more appropriate for those reading "The Silmarillion" for the first time:

1.The Ainulindalë is not a part of the actual Quenta Silmarillion. Why was it important to add it according to you? Do you like this piece?

2. Who is Ilúvatar and who are the Ainur?

3. What is the purpose of the themes of music Ilúvatar presents to the Ainur?

4. What do you think the Ainur saw in the vision of Arda? How came this vision into existance?

5. What about Melkor? An interesting discussion about this Ainu you can find here on the Tolkien and Christianity forum.
 

[Dagor]

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lorien wrote:

I don't know if anyone is interested in comparing the various evolutions of Tolkien's creation myth. I have found various versions in The Book of Lost Tales Part One, The Lost Road and Other Writings, and Morgoth's Ring. these are all part of the Histories series.

The one in Morgoth's Ring is refered to as Version "C" and it has been posted as a pdf file online. This is apparently considerTolkien's final version of this story. The details are mentioned in this Intro and Notes.

Ainulindale Morgoth's Ring

The interesting thing about these other versions is that Tolkien "plays the ancient history game" by tracing its authorship:

This was made by Rumil of Túna in the Elder Days.
It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa
to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.
To it are added the further words
that Pengoloð spoke at that time
concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani;
of which more is said hereafter.
These are the words that Pengoloð spake to Ælfwine concerning the beginning
of the World.
First he recited to him the Ainulindalë as Rúmil made it.

As I recall, all these stories, myths, and legends were passed on and documented by the elves.

Message Edited by lorien on 08-22-2008 08:21 PM

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Hi, Lorien!

RE "various evolutions," maybe a new topic thread should be opened here?

You are correct, Lorien, JRRT almost always re-worked his major themes, and any in-depth study of Middle-earth eventually leads all students to the HOME series where the various manuscript versions are collected. Sometimes the alterations are extreme, changing the text, the characters, the motivations and the meanings in radical ways -- other manuscripts remain largely the same from their initial 1910 - 1922 forms all the way down to his death. It can be a fascinating study to compare the differing manuscripts and try to figure why the changes were made...

At one time Sauron was a Cat, not a man or a god in a cat-like appearnce, he was simply a cat, a GREAT, vicious cat -- Tevildo, the Lord of Cats. Later JRRT decided to alter that early version of the tale of Beren and Luthien from an animal story (Good Dogs vrs Evil Cats) into a final anthropomorphic story, the Tale of Luthien. 

[lorien]

I have now read the Ainulindale several times and listened to it on Cd and it is a beautiful creation story. This was Tolkien's area. He loved words and turning words into music. His books are full of songs and I even have a CD of him singing or reciting his pieces. His regular prose sometimes turns into a pattern of sounds and accents. I don't think it is something many people are aware of unless they listen to the books on CD or read them aloud but the music quality is there.

I don't want to jump ahead of our schedule--well, at least not too soon! But I thought maybe I would bring up the quality of the piece and what a beautiful idea it was to make creation of the world out of thought made into music. This is the beginning of the Ainulindale.
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Ainulindale
The Music of the Ainur

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.

And it came to pass that Iluvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent.

Then Iluvatar said to them: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song."

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.
=========================

I'm already bursting with comments and questions about these first four paragraphs. My self control is melting away!

[Nadine]

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony."

---------------

This seems to start very traditionally with "One God" but the way I read this is that it seems more of a moment of self-awareness on the part of this entity rather than an act of creation. He (or whatever) becomes aware of himself and his thoughts. They are a bit chaotic at first and then start to come under some cohesiveness. This is how I would imagine it happens to a new born child (I don't remember what it was like now! ). The awaken to uncomprehensible thoughts and sensations and then starts to sort them out.

[lorien]

"..he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought..."

Actually, I consider this Eru's first creation and the Ainur at this point are not Eru's thoughts but now separate creations. It is interesting, that unlike Genesis, Tolkien's "god" makes his first separate creation "beings" who will later be his sub-gods and will be responsible (like many mythic gods) for certain aspects of creation. There is no physical creation yet. No separating light from darkness. These gods actually participate in the creation process by singing the song of creation. At this point there is still only "void" and nothing else but these beings created from his thoughts. Except for the "first" initiating being, I think this account is very different than the Genesis account.

I am getting a bit ahead of things here, but the only thing I see consistent with Tolkien's religious background is that it started with a single being and that the creation of sentient life with free will is reserved for Eru alone. The physical make-up of the world really falls to his sub-gods. He doesn't even create a "first" man or woman but the population kind just sprouts up much later on. And he creates two forms of sentient life the "first born" -- the immortal elves, and the "second born" -- the mortal men. To me this seems like a major deviation from the specialness of humans given in Genesis--humans who have dominion over the earth and a special destiny.

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Nadine wrote:

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony."

---------------

This seems to start very traditionally with "One God" but the way I read this is that it seems more of a moment of self-awareness on the part of this entity rather than an act of creation. He (or whatever) becomes aware of himself and his thoughts. They are a bit chaotic at first and then start to come under some cohesiveness. This is how I would imagine it happens to a new born child (I don't remember what it was like now! ). The awaken to uncomprehensible thoughts and sensations and then starts to sort them out.

---

[Nadine]

Dagor wrote (transferred from Silmarillian thread)

"Ainulindale" synopsis, pp. 15-22:

Tolkien wrote several versions of the creation of his universe, so a good deal of the material found in "Ainulindale" will be repeated (often with variations) in later sections of "The Silmarillion." In this first description of his cosmogeny (universe-creation) Tolkien sketches the creation as originating with a single divine being, "Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar" (p. 15). Initially Eru creates the Ainur ("the Holy Ones" ) as the offspring of his mind, and through the medium of musical themes he communicates with them. Each of these Ainu (singular form of Ainur) knows a portion of Eru's mind, and sings about that portion. Eventually, the Ainur begin to weave their individual songs into a harmonic whole. What they sing becomes a choral "Great Music," and the Ainur are given a bit of the creative "Flame Imperishable" which allows their individual thoughts/ songs to become a physical reality.

------------------------------------------------- 

According to the adjusted schedule in Tolkein-North we are discussing the Ainulindale this week. 

---------------------------------

What they sing becomes a choral "Great Music," and the Ainur are given a bit of the creative "Flame Imperishable" which allows their individual thoughts/ songs to become a physical reality.

--------------------------------------

I have a question? Maybe this is explained later but what is the "Flame Imperishable"? 

[Nadine]

Dagor wrote (transferred from Silmarillian thread)

2. What is the purpose of this creation? Does Tolkien ever tell us "why" Eru creates his universe? Was he lonely? In comparison/ contrast: Why does the God of the biblical Genesis create his universe? In comparative mythologies, why do the other gods in other religions create their universes?

--------------------------------

I'm not really knowledgeable about creation stories but I don't recall anyone of the creators having a reason for creating the universe. A "god" certainly isn't bored or lonely. But then I think of creation more as a force of nature that just happens spontaneously. My interpretation is that Tolkien's god Eru had a thought and it started from there becoming a creation "melody" that was further enhanced by the sub-creations of his mind. Beyond that there didn't seem to be much of a plan or motivation. Early on he did seem to have a plan for two sentient races besides his sub-gods. Having plans for two similar races -- one immortal and one mortal is certainly different than what the Biblical God had in mind. I'm sure this fact is going to be very significant further on but I haven't read that far yet.

It has been a couple weeks now since I thought much about this. I'll have to look at this chapter again and give this some more thought.

[Dagor]

Just checking in to see how things are going.

Hmmm, regarding the term "Ainulindale" itself, has anyone yet found its meaning?

RE: "Flame Imperishable" -- My interpretation follows here, and it may not be anywhere near the mark as Tolkien himself saw it, so don't take anything that follows as "authoritative" -- just my musings!

This is actually a tough one, as JRRT has several different versions of his creation mythology (the guy could never leave anything alone!) and at times he seems to have called the same substance/ principle "The Secret Fire." Unfortunately Tolkien never (to my knowledge) systematized this substance, never gave us an actual definition. So, we are left trying to deduce the nature/ purpose/ meaning of it from its functions and behaviours as revealed in his various texts. In the "Ainulindale" the Flame Imperishable seems to be a part of Eru's own existence, and he uses it to bring "life" to the Ainur, and then through this same stuff (now called "secret fire" ) he uses it to give Reality to the thoughts of these Ainur.

" I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable..." Ainulindale, p. 15 and "... Illuvatar shall give to their [the Ainur] thoughts the secret fire ..." A. p. 16

Melkor seems to be the first (perhaps the only?) of the Ainur to recognize that this "secret fire," this "Flame Imperishable" is the necessary stuff for bringing one's thoughts into a sort of physical reality. Not content with merely thinking the great thoughts of a godlike creature, Melkor wants his thoughts to become Real. He searches for the Imperishable Flame, "Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar." (A. p. 16) But, since Melkor takes the trouble to seek the Flame Imperishable, he must believe that he too can use the stuff, if only he can get ahold of it. With the Flame Imperishable, he thinks he can create his own reality, can become the One God of his own universe. Whether he actually possesses enough original power of his own to pull this off is another matter, but (I think) his entire existence in Tolkien's mythology can be reduced to the tale of his attempts to become the One God himself. But, Melkor can never obtain the Flame Imperishable, because it IS Eru himself.

So far, to me, this makes sense, the Secret Fire is the Imperishable Flame, the stuff that alters thought into physical reality, and it is an integral part of Eru -- something within him, and of him that only he can use. But then, Tolkien throws us a curve, suddenly we find out that the Flame Imperishable is not really "with Illuvatar," as the stuff can be "detached." Eru can alienate the Flame from his own body/ person as he declares: "And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be..." (A. p.20)

What does this mean? By expelling the Flame from himself, has Eru given up the ability to create new realities? When he dumps the magical Flame Imperishable into the core of the World, does he not diminish himself (like the Demiurge God in the Valentinian Gnostic system), does he not impair his own functions and omnipotence? Does this mean Eru has bound himself to a "Destiny," so that he can no longer alter the flow of Time and change Physical Reality? Must he wait until the World has fully run its destined course before he can take the Flame Imperishable back into himself for a new, second creative effort? Is He, like the Elves and Valar, now committed to serving out a "lifetime" sentence in/ with the realm of Ea/ Arda? I'm not sure, I don't think Tolkien ever worked this out for himself, at any rate, I've never read anything he wrote that served to enlighten me on this point. Maybe Eru only released a part of the Flame Imperishable, keeping within himself enough of the stuff to add new creations to the universe when and if it became necessary? Maybe Eru can still "work" the Flame Imperishable by remote? Just don't know.

So, while I am certain that the Flame Imperishable is the power to alter thought into physical reality, to give thought true Life, I still find this stuff to be a most elusive element, is it the Will of God (Eru), is it the Life Force itself, is it a separate substance from Eru, or a vital part of his own being? Can others, like Melkor, ever get the stuff and use it for his own purposes?

LOL, all of this seems to be far outside the normative Christian Orthodox interpretation of God as being fully omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, doesn't it? Here we have a creator God, who seemingly can be self-diminished through the "loss" of his Flame Imperishable, can be bound to a pattern he himslef cannot alter (or simply WILL not alter)? In some ways, this Eru looks more like the Norse AllFather (Illuvatar) than the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic Jehovah/ Allah.

Wish the Old Boy were still available for some pointed grilling here -- "What do you mean by all this 'Flame Imperishable' stuff, JRRT!?"

_________________________

In LOTR, Gandalf, as he faces the Balrog of Moria, reveals to his foe that he (Gandalf), is a "servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." (FotR, "Bridge of Khazad-dum," p. 344) Does he merely SERVE the "Secret Fire," or, through his ability to use the solar power (flame of Anor) can he in some small way access the Flame Imperishable? Arrrrgggghhhh!!!

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-09-2008 02:05 PM

[Fanuidhol]

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Dagor wrote:

Just checking in to see how things are going.

Hmmm, regarding the term "Ainulindale" itself, has anyone yet found its meaning?

RE: "Flame Imperishable" -- My interpretation follows here, and it may not be anywhere near the mark as Tolkien himself saw it, so don't take anything that follows as "authoritative" -- just my musings!

This is actually a tough one, as JRRT has several different versions of his creation mythology (the guy could never leave anything alone!) and at times he seems to have called the same substance/ principle "The Secret Fire." Unfortunately Tolkien never (to my knowledge) systematized this substance, never gave us an actual definition. So, we are left trying to deduce the nature/ purpose/ meaning of it from its functions and behaviours as revealed in his various texts. In the "Ainulindale" the Flame Imperishable seems to be a part of Eru's own existence, and he uses it to bring "life" to the Ainur, and then through this same stuff (now called "secret fire" ) he uses it to give Reality to the thoughts of these Ainur.

" I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable..." Ainulindale, p. 15 and "... Illuvatar shall give to their [the Ainur] thoughts the secret fire ..." A. p. 16

Melkor seems to be the first (perhaps the only?) of the Ainur to recognize that this "secret fire," this "Flame Imperishable" is the necessary stuff for bringing one's thoughts into a sort of physical reality. Not content with merely thinking the great thoughts of a godlike creature, Melkor wants his thoughts to become Real. He searches for the Imperishable Flame, "Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar." (A. p. 16) But, since Melkor takes the trouble to seek the Flame Imperishable, he must believe that he too can use the stuff, if only he can get ahold of it. With the Flame Imperishable, he thinks he can create his own reality, can become the One God of his own universe. Whether he actually possesses enough original power of his own to pull this off is another matter, but (I think) his entire existence in Tolkien's mythology can be reduced to the tale of his attempts to become the One God himself. But, Melkor can never obtain the Flame Imperishable, because it IS Eru himself.

So far, to me, this makes sense, the Secret Fire is the Imperishable Flame, the stuff that alters thought into physical reality, and it is an integral part of Eru -- something within him, and of him that only he can use. But then, Tolkien throws us a curve, suddenly we find out that the Flame Imperishable is not really "with Illuvatar," as the stuff can be "detached." Eru can alienate the Flame from his own body/ person as he declares: "And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be..." (A. p.20)

What does this mean? By expelling the Flame from himself, has Eru given up the ability to create new realities? When he dumps the magical Flame Imperishable into the core of the World, does he not diminish himself (like the Demiurge God in the Valentinian Gnostic system), does he not impair his own functions and omnipotence? Does this mean Eru has bound himself to a "Destiny," so that he can no longer alter the flow of Time and change Physical Reality? Must he wait until the World has fully run its destined course before he can take the Flame Imperishable back into himself for a new, second creative effort? Is He, like the Elves and Valar, now committed to serving out a "lifetime" sentence in/ with the realm of Ea/ Arda? I'm not sure, I don't think Tolkien ever worked this out for himself, at any rate, I've never read anything he wrote that served to enlighten me on this point. Maybe Eru only released a part of the Flame Imperishable, keeping within himself enough of the stuff to add new creations to the universe when and if it became necessary? Maybe Eru can still "work" the Flame Imperishable by remote? Just don't know.

So, while I am certain that the Flame Imperishable is the power to alter thought into physical reality, to give thought true Life, I still find this stuff to be a most elusive element, is it the Will of God (Eru), is it the Life Force itself, is it a separate substance from Eru, or a vital part of his own being? Can others, like Melkor, ever get the stuff and use it for his own purposes?

LOL, all of this seems to be far outside the normative Christian Orthodox interpretation of God as being fully omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, doesn't it? Here we have a creator God, who seemingly can be self-diminished through the "loss" of his Flame Imperishable, can be bound to a pattern he himslef cannot alter (or simply WILL not alter)? In some ways, this Eru looks more like the Norse AllFather (Illuvatar) than the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic Jehovah/ Allah.

Wish the Old Boy were still available for some pointed grilling here -- "What do you mean by all this 'Flame Imperishable' stuff, JRRT!?"

_________________________

In LOTR, Gandalf, as he faces the Balrog of Moria, reveals to his foe that he (Gandalf), is a "servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." (FotR, "Bridge of Khazad-dum," p. 344) Does he merely SERVE the "Secret Fire," or, through his ability to use the solar power (flame of Anor) can he in some small way access the Flame Imperishable? Arrrrgggghhhh!!!

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-09-2008 02:05 PM

---

For anybody who hasn't found the term Ainulindale in the "Index of Names" at the end of Silm, it means Music of the Ainur, which happens to be the subtitle of the chapter, also.

The "Index of Names" was a godsend - - my first, second, third time through Silm.  Hint, Hint!!!

JRRT did give us a definition for "Flame Imperishable" (if only I understood it).  Found in Morgoth's Ring in the Author's Notes to the commentary for "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" pg 345:

 "...'Flame Imperishable'.  This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (though derivative and created) existence.  The Flame Imperishable is sent out from Eru, to dwell in the heart of the world, and the world then Is, on the same plane as the Ainur, and they can enter into it....It refers rather to the mystery of 'authorship', by which the author, while remaining 'outside' and independent of his work, also 'indwells' in it, on its derivative plane, below that of his own being, as the source and guarantee of its being."

Fan

[Dagor]

Hi Fan! Thanks for the quote. I did not want to use it myself because it has been touted in the Encyclopaedia of Arda as a "definition" of Flame Imperishable -- when, I think, it is nothing of the sort. Check my line of logic here, if you will -- what makes sense to me often seems arrant nonsense to others (surely THEY are wrong, can't be ME!) sigh...

Here, I'm wondering if we need to be very careful about using the material in the HOME volumes -- quite often what we get is Christopher Tolkien's personal gloss on various terms and matters. The quotation you supply us is actually a footnote (#11) to the JRRT text. It is NOT a "definitive" statement by JRRT himself, it is not even an authoritative statement from Chris, but represents (as he tells us himself) his "take" on the matter. Hence the use of the phrase "This appears to mean..."

In fact, as I read this passage, Chris is telling us that even HE does not, for certain, know precisely what his father meant the Flame Imperishable to be. What Chris does tell us, is exactly nothing more than what we ourselves as readers can (and did) find in the texts ourselves. I noted in the passage that Chris also is a bit worried about the implications of this Flame, especially its relationship to Eru -- is it an integral part of him; can it really be FULLY detatched; and, inferentially, can Melkor actually use it if he can ever find it? Chris eventually shrugs it all off by calling it a "mystery" -- how can Eru (as God almighty) be both independent of his creation and yet be simultaneously "indwelling" within it?

Sigh, a "mystery" (something not to be understood, but taken on faith) is not much of a definition... 

One interesting "guess" (no better or worse than mine and Christopher Tolkien's) tries to equate the Flame Imperishable with the third person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit. I do not know enough of the RC faith and dogmas to determine if this is a "far-out-there" interpretation, or if it makes sense in an RC sort of way? Does the "Holy Spirit" ("Holy Ghost" to those raised up in the King James tradition) ever act as the breath of life, the stuff that quickens an idea into a physical reality? Etymologically, Latin "spiritus" (Espiritu Sanctus) and the Greek "pneuma" both mean "breath," the stuff of life (at least to O2 absorbing individuals on our planet). But does "flame" ever equate with "breath"? Maybe metaphorically?

So, unless there is an actual explanation from JRRT available on some overlooked scrap of paper in some dusty archive, we may never have a genuine definition for "Flame Imperishable."

[Fanuidhol]

---

Dagor wrote:

Hi Fan! Thanks for the quote. I did not want to use it myself because it has been touted in the Encyclopaedia of Arda as a "definition" of Flame Imperishable -- when, I think, it is nothing of the sort. Check my line of logic here, if you will -- what makes sense to me often seems arrant nonsense to others (surely THEY are wrong, can't be ME!) sigh...

Here, I'm wondering if we need to be very careful about using the material in the HOME volumes -- quite often what we get is Christopher Tolkien's personal gloss on various terms and matters. The quotation you supply us is actually a footnote (#11) to the JRRT text. It is NOT a "definitive" statement by JRRT himself, it is not even an authoritative statement from Chris, but represents (as he tells us himself) his "take" on the matter. Hence the use of the phrase "This appears to mean..."

In fact, as I read this passage, Chris is telling us that even HE does not, for certain, know precisely what his father meant the Flame Imperishable to be. What Chris does tell us, is exactly nothing more than what we ourselves as readers can (and did) find in the texts ourselves. I noted in the passage that Chris also is a bit worried about the implications of this Flame, especially its relationship to Eru -- is it an integral part of him; can it really be FULLY detatched; and, inferentially, can Melkor actually use it if he can ever find it? Chris eventually shrugs it all off by calling it a "mystery" -- how can Eru (as God almighty) be both independent of his creation and yet be simultaneously "indwelling" within it?

Sigh, a "mystery" (something not to be understood, but taken on faith) is not much of a definition... 

One interesting "guess" (no better or worse than mine and Christopher Tolkien's) tries to equate the Flame Imperishable with the third person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit. I do not know enough of the RC faith and dogmas to determine if this is a "far-out-there" interpretation, or if it makes sense in an RC sort of way? Does the "Holy Spirit" ("Holy Ghost" to those raised up in the King James tradition) ever act as the breath of life, the stuff that quickens an idea into a physical reality? Etymologically, Latin "spiritus" (Espiritu Sanctus) and the Greek "pneuma" both mean "breath," the stuff of life (at least to O2 absorbing individuals on our planet). But does "flame" ever equate with "breath"? Maybe metaphorically?

So, unless there is an actual explanation from JRRT available on some overlooked scrap of paper in some dusty archive, we may never have a genuine definition for "Flame Imperishable."

---

Dagor, please, go to pg 329 in Morgoth's Ring and read that the commentary and author's note that I quoted are by JRRT.  Chris does not interject his thoughts on the entire commentary and author's notes until later, starting pg 349.

While it is true that JRRT did not publish this "definition", I do believe that it gives us an excellent insight into what JRRT thought about it when he wrote it, back in 1959.

While I was looking in my index to the HoMe series for the terms "flame imperishable" and "secret fire", I found that JRRT's earliest mention of "secret fire" was back in 1918-1920, during the first "Music of the Ainur" found in Lost Tales vol 1. 

Fan

PS I never have trusted Ency. of Arda.... 

[Dagor]

Woke up this morning, late, nothing to do today, started re-reading the passage of note 11, eek, turns out there are two sets of commentary notes, those by Christopher start on p. 357, so, as you point out, Fanuidhol, the first set of "notes" are indeed by JRRT. Does this alter anything (besides teaching me the ever useful lesson of reading by entire chapters rather than selected passages...)?

This is even more interesting then, and I think it doubly supports my contention, that we have NO definition offered by JRRT here. He is himself speculating on the Flame Imperishable as if even he does not fully know what he wants it to be, and is not certain of the ramifications its use might have. Again the phrase "This appears to mean..." stands out as rather an odd thing for an author to say. Apparently, JRRT did not himself fully comprehend the Flame Imperishable. But he did at least understand that there was a contradiction in having the Flame be part of Eru and yet, at the same time "divisible" from him; and he did understand the secondary contradiction that this forces between having a god who is both "independent" and above his own works, while simultaneously "indwelling" within them.

RE: Fan's -- "JRRT did give us a definition for "Flame Imperishable" (if only I understood it)."

Fan, I think your not being able to understand this passage underscores the fact that it is NOT a definition*, and it reflects JRRT's own uncertainty here -- quite frankly, JRRT had not yet worked out a consistent understanding of the concept of the Flame Imperishable even for himself.

*One of the definitions of "definition" is its ability to simplify and EXPLAIN, to convey understanding. If a passage does not serve this function, if it only confuses, or leaves matters in a state of ambiguity -- it is NOT a definition. 

Perhaps taking a broader view might help here. As I understand it, the entire volume of "Morgoth's Ring" represents JRRT's late-in-life attempts to review, revise, and rewrite his entire mythology. So, as I see it, we have Tolkien poring over his first books and stories trying to reduce them to a more consistent, logical, unified mass. He toys with the idea of abandoning the origin of the Orcs from the Elves, giving them Men as ancestors instead; then he reviews the Ainulindale, and the contradictions it contains worries him. He sees that his use of the Flame Imperishable does not make sense, if it is "with" Eru, how can it later be divided from him and stand independently at the heart of Arda? Is his creator God to be inside his own creation, or above-beyond it? He ponders, how to correct this? Does he make the Flame Imperishable a separate entity of its own, something along the lines of the "Holy Spirit" of the Trinity? Maybe. He did have a tendency in his last years to try to make his mythology ever less Nordic pagan, and ever more congruent with Christianity, so tying the Flame Imperishable to the "Holy Spirit" might work... But, he died before he could ever get beyond the point of simply remarking to himself in note 11 that, as it now stood, the only way to understand the Flame Imperishable was to see it as an UNDEFINED principle, and perhaps as an undefinable Mystery.

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-10-2008 01:21 PM

[Fanuidhol]

I have gone over the Author's Note and the Commentary that sparked it.  I think I better understand it now.  Dagor believes that JRRT doesn't exactly know what "flame imperishable" is because he uses the phrase "This appears to be..."

I, on the other hand, think JRRT used the phrase to say in other words "there is more to it than just what it appears".  Not only is it the "creative activity", it is the "mystery of 'authorship' the ability to dwell within and without at the same time.

Just like the Christian God who is One divided into Three, Eru (because he is the Christian God) can have his "flame imperishable" be separate from him but, still within him.  But, I disagree with Dagor's comparison to the Holy Spirit because their functions are completely different.  

Somewhat off topic:  Dagor wrote: "Perhaps taking a broader view might help here. As I understand it, the entire volume of "Morgoth's Ring" represents JRRT's late-in-life attempts to review, revise, and rewrite his entire mythology."

Dagor what does "late in life attempts to review, revise and rewrite" mean?  If you mean during and at the completion of writing LotR to the end of his life, then yes you would be correct in stating the entire volume represents this change.  The whole of Morgoth's Ring IS about another stage of evolution in Tolkien's writing, just like every other volume of the HoMe series.

If however, you mean the 60 odd pages of "Myths Transformed" which really were late-in-life writings then you have quite overstated it.

Dagor wrote: then he reviews the Ainulindale, and the contradictions it contains worries him. He sees that his use of the Flame Imperishable does not make sense, if it is "with" Eru, how can it later be divided from him and stand independently at the heart of Arda? Is his creator God to be inside his own creation, or above-beyond it? He ponders, how to correct this? Does he make the Flame Imperishable a separate entity of its own, something along the lines of the "Holy Spirit" of the Trinity?"

In my interpretation, there are no contradictions, since Tolkien often stated that Middle-earth is a feigned history of our pre-Christian world.

What did bother Tolkien was the 'flat earth' version and the fact that in his creation story the sun and moon came later.  I believe he wanted to change that.

Fan

[Dagor]

Re Fan's -- "Dagor believes that JRRT doesn't exactly know what "flame imperishable" is because he uses the phrase 'This appears to be...' "

Yes, I think Tolkien, back in 1918-24 (correct me if the dates are wrong!) when he wrote up the Ainulindale, he was writing largely for himself, and in a provisional sort of way. In the post 1960 period when he finally saw a chance to get the Silmarillion material published he began revising it. When he re-read the Ainulindale portion (sometime in the 1960s) he saw that there were several contradictions in the original story. He could a) do nothing, and just publish the tale as it was; b) he could revise it, altering the original use of the Flame Imperishable by "re-defining" it so that the contradictions were smoothed over; c) he could follow standard Christian theological procedures and simply tell his readers that the contradictions did not matter because this situation was a "Mystery," something you don't try to understand, you merely accept because it is beyond human understanding.

Tolkien never got a chance to chose the option he would like to have used if only he had lived long enough to get a revised Silmarillion manuscript into publication.

Simultaneously, Fan, I think your own interpretation also works well here: "I, on the other hand, think JRRT used the phrase to say in other words 'there is more to it than just what it appears'." This to me still sounds like a note to HIMSELF that there is something not quite fully revealed by the passage as he originally wrote it, something lacking a clear definition, something needing revison if he is to make the nature of the Flame Imperishable plain to his future readers. Either way, whether Tolkien never fully knew the ramifications of his original passage; or, whether he realized that too many readers would not see what he fully meant here -- both scenarios lead me to the same conclusion: something is lacking in this supposed "definition" of the Flame Imperishable, something that Tolkien would have to supply before the Silmarillion could be published. As it stands, this editorial note to himself, does not give us a definition that fits all the uses of the substance as related in the text of the Ainulindale. It is fairly plain, I think, to all of us, that the Flame Imperishable allows thought to become creative physical reality -- but is it fully understandable what will happen if the Flame is a distinct "entity" unto itself? Is it detachable? Can Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, any one who wishes, gain access to it, and then use it to create their own independent reality separte from Eru? Would access to the Flame Imperishable allow Melkor to CREATE rather than simply sub-create or twist/ corrupt reality? I do think these questions occurred to Tolkien (hence his musings about "mystery" ) but I certainly do not see this passage as providing him or us with a final definition.

RE Fan's "Just like the Christian God who is One divided into Three, Eru (because he is the Christian God) can have his "flame imperishable" be separate from him but, still within him."

First one caution, you are assuming Eru = the Christian God, and that would yet take some proving -- there are pagan Norse "All Father" elements mixed in with Eru's development; the world Eru created is not the same as the Genesis account; the status and place of Mankind in Arda is quite different from the Adam and Eve in Eden concept, etc. etc. Eru may have many Jehovah-like attributes (also Nordic All Father attributes), but is he the SAME, Identical God? Would Tolkien ever say that he knew the Christian God well enough to create an exact duplicate of Him for his novel, his mythology?

The next problem here is precisely what I was mentioning above -- MYSTERY! Yes, just as the Christian God can have his Mystery of the Trinity, three persons as one, separable and yet somehow NEVER seperated etc, so Eru might also have his Mystery, two persons united as one -- Eru and his Flame. Then we could have a detachable Flame Imperishable that is still (mysteriously) NEVER really seperated from Eru -- but that is NOT a "definition!" It is the opposite of a definition and requires an act of Faith for its acceptance. This is the dilemma Tolkien faced, either rework the Ainulindale to more completly explain and really define the Flame Imperishable -- or just leave it undefined as part of a Mystery, something to be taken on faith by the readers.

As I read this passage (note #11 HOME 10, p. 345) I get no more understanding of the situation than I already had -- yes, the Flame Imperishable works as "the Creative activity of Eru" -- but just WHAT does this mean, and what does it imply for the unfolding tale? Tolkien never got a chance to tell us, even IF he ever knew it himself.

_________________

RE Fan's "But, I disagree with Dagor's comparison to the Holy Spirit because their functions are completely different."

Darn, I thought I made it clear that the identification of Holy Spirit with Flame Imperishable is something I find to be a VERY long-shot. From what I think I know of the Protestant catechism I imbibed decades and decades ago, I see little functional similarity between H.S. and Tolkien's Flame Imperishable. I merely advanced it as the argument that others have made online, hoping those of us here at B&N who have more knowledge of the Holy Spirit from an RC position might be able to refute (or support) that contention. Consequently, I am actually pleased you find the HS = FI hypothesis NOT a very likely contender. I assume you have more RC knowledge than I do, so it is very good to have a more expert opinion added to this portion of the discussion, THANKS!

__________________

LOL, just as Tolkien had "flat-earth" problems, so I see him having trouble with the Imperishable Flame. He was young, he was enthusiastic, he was writing for himself a new mythology. He made "mistakes," many of them. Some he revised before publication, some he was trying to revise when he died. I do read note 11 as just an editorial comment to himself, pointing out to himself some problems with the Ainulindale that would have to be addressed before it could be published. I also think that In his later years, JRRT grew ever more concerned with stressing/ re-inforcing the Christian "applicabilities" and congruences of his texts -- and here I think he probably would have used the "mystery" option, basing his use of it on the existence of so many other mysteries in the RC faith. It's also the easy way out, GOOD definitions are actually quite hard to compose, but a Mystery is, well it is expected to be "mysterious!"

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-11-2008 09:11 PM

[Fanuidhol]

Dagor wrote: "Yes, I think Tolkien, back in 1918-24 (correct me if the dates are wrong!) when he wrote up the Ainulindale, he was writing largely for himself, and in a provisional sort of way.  In the post 1960 period when he finally saw a chance to get the Silmarillion material published he began revising it."

It wasn't all post-1960.  He had hopes to publish Silm with LotR and began tinkering with Silm while finishing up LotR.  For instance, "The Round World Version" of Ainulindale was lent out in 1948. pg 6 Morgoth's Ring.

---

 

Dagor wrote: "When he re-read the Ainulindale portion (sometime in the 1960s) he saw that there were several contradictions in the original story. He could a) do nothing, and just publish the tale as it was; b) he could revise it, altering the original use of the Flame Imperishable by "re-defining" it so that the contradictions were smoothed over; c) he could follow standard Christian theological procedures and simply tell his readers that the contradictions did not matter because this situation was a "Mystery," something you don't try to understand, you merely accept because it is beyond human understanding.

I believe that you are assuming wrongly that JRRT saw contradictions in the "Flame Imperishable".  Where do you see changes in its use?  I believe on the other hand that your c) "mystery" comes close to what JRRT was always thinking.  The mystery is in the "how" Eru and his "flame imperishable" can be within the world and yet separate from it.  That's where Christian theology comes in because of the 3 "persons" in 1 God "mystery". 

Dagor again: "Tolkien never got a chance to chose the option he would like to have used if only he had lived long enough to get a revised Silmarillion manuscript into publication."

---

Dagor wrote:  "Simultaneously, Fan, I think your own interpretation also works well here: "I, on the other hand, think JRRT used the phrase to say in other words 'there is more to it than just what it appears'." This to me still sounds like a note to HIMSELF that there is something not quite fully revealed by the passage as he originally wrote it, something lacking a clear definition, something needing revison if he is to make the nature of the Flame Imperishable plain to his future readers. Either way, whether Tolkien never fully knew the ramifications of his original passage; or, whether he realized that too many readers would not see what he fully meant here -- both scenarios lead me to the same conclusion: something is lacking in this supposed "definition" of the Flame Imperishable, something that Tolkien would have to supply before the Silmarillion could be published."

Tolkien intended for "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" be included in a published Silm. which is the story that fueled "The Commentary" that sparked the "Author's Notes".   (Chris dates it probably 1959).  The story, commentary, author's notes and Chris's editorial comments can be found in Morgoth's Ring pgs 303-366. 

Though I see a definition for Flame Imperishable (or an explanation if you like that word better), in the quote, I think the purpose of the author's note was to explore the similarities of characteristics to something found in the commentary and the story.  I'll get to that later.   

---

Dagor wrote: "As it stands, this editorial note to himself, does not give us a definition that fits all the uses of the substance as related in the text of the Ainulindale. It is fairly plain, I think, to all of us, that the Flame Imperishable allows thought to become creative physical reality -- but is it fully understandable what will happen if the Flame is a distinct "entity" unto itself? Is it detachable? Can Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, any one who wishes, gain access to it, and then use it to create their own independent reality separte from Eru? Would access to the Flame Imperishable allow Melkor to CREATE rather than simply sub-create or twist/ corrupt reality? I do think these questions occurred to Tolkien (hence his musings about "mystery" ) but I certainly do not see this passage as providing him or us with a final definition."

I disagree that Tolkien questioned himself on this point.  I think it is rather plain that Melkor couldn't find it since it was within Eru (from the first pre-1921 version we have of "Music of the Ainur" pg 51 Lost Tales Vol1)

---

More on a rebuttal to the rest of Dagor's argument later.

Fan

[Dagor]

A parallel discussion of these very same points is being carried on at Tolkien's Ring, and because I'm lazy I'll just cut and paste one message from that discussion here because I think it illustrates the fact that we never got a Real Definition of Flame Imperishable from Tolkien, so that the field is left open to wide ranging speculation:

Re: The Ainulindalë #2
« Reply #20 Today at 11:27 »

RE Stormrider's: "So were the Ainur filled with the Flame Imperishable as the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit? Once they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they had more courage, strength, and determination to bring the Gospel of Jesus to the World. JRRT did not write it that way at all. The Ainur were created to turn Eru's thoughts into music and in turn into Arda--more like Jesus except there were many of them.

"So if Eru can send his Flame Imperishable into the center of the earth, is our own Earth flaming inside or is it solid minerals and ores? So were is H e l l? Is it deep inside Earth? I don't think the Flame Imperishable was meant to be associated with H e l l either! What a twist of my thought."

____________

LOL, Fanuidhol and I are arguing some of these same points on another forum. I think Fan believes that Tolkien DID adequately define the Flame Imperishable in note 11 of Morgoth's Ring p 344, while I maintain that this passage does not usefully define anything, and leaves the matter open to such questions as you have posted here.

Does a spark of the Flame Imperishable remain inside each living, created thing? Is it somehow akin to the concept of of the soul? Or does Eru merely touch the "thought Ainur" with his Imperishable Flame, and that touch is enough to bring them into existence as independent beings whether or not a bit of the Flame stays inside them?

Likewise, how are we to understand the presence of the Flame Imperishable within the World? Is it only metaphorically at the heart of the World, or is it really a substance there that burns at the core of our planet? Or, does "World" mean the entire created universe, at least our solar system, as in one of the Letters JRRT does define Arda as the solar system, not just the planet earth. In this sense the Sun would be at the heart of the "World" system, and maybe the Sun would then be the Flame Imperishable? I do not think this is actually what JRRT had in mind, but in the absence of a real definition of Flame Imperishable, it leaves the matter open to such speculation.

Does the Flame Imperishable equate in some way with the fires of Hell, hmmm, that is a "twist," maybe in the same way that the hobbits came to distrust the sea* and the western passages toward Valinor as the route of death, the place where only the dead mortals may enter, and so came to fear the westermost lands -- maybe a trip to the core of the world would also be regarded as a passage to death?

See! This is why I say the Flame Imperishable has never really been defined, Tolkien left it open to so much speculation!

______________

* "... and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death..." (FotR, Prologue, p. 16 hb ver.)