SILM: Ainulindale [ Edited ]

[Dagor]

Hi ya, Fan!

OK, what's on the plate fer today?

Eeekkk!

RE Fan's

It wasn't all post-1960. He had hopes to publish Silm with LotR and began tinkering with Silm while finishing up LotR. For instance, "The Round World Version" of Ainulindale was lent out in 1948. pg 6 Morgoth's Ring.

Yes, he also had a moment's gleam of hope ("little hope soon reduced to no hope" ) just after publishing The Hobbit, that he might get a version of his mythology published as well. I assume he would have reviewed some of that material at that time, say 1937-38? Tolkien never seems to have left any of his tales fully alone, he was constantly tinkering with them, finding flaws and inconsistencies, making notes to himself concerning how best (if he ever got the time) to rewrite the material and remove the flaws. In addition to the datable context of note 11, HOME X, p. 345, did he address the issue of the Flame Imperishable at some time before the 1960s? That would be fine with me, in fact it would, I believe, add further support to my contention that he was not satisfied with his earlier treatment of this substance, pondering a more clear and useful definition of it to be written up when he had the time. Do you actually have an earlier treatment of the Flame Imperishable available? That would be cool to follow his alterations deeper into time, but from what sources I have read, I cannot find any other notes on Imperishable Flame.

Re Fan's: "I believe that you are assuming wrongly that JRRT saw contradictions in the "Flame Imperishable". Where do you see changes in its use? I believe on the other hand that your c) "mystery" comes close to what JRRT was always thinking. The mystery is in the "how" Eru and his "flame imperishable" can be within the world and yet separate from it. That's where Christian theology comes in because of the 3 "persons" in 1 God "mystery".

In the Ainulindale as it was published in The Silmarillion collection by Chris Tolkien, the Flame Imperishable is first used to "kindle" into existence the Ainur. There is no talk here, (A. p. 15) of any of this substance being left behind within the Ainur, no hint that the Flame can be alienated from Eru. On p. 16, Eru enthuses the thought of the Ainur with the "secret fire" (I think we have agreed that Flame Imperishable and secret fire are the same?) allowing the thoughts of the Ainur to become real. At this point, Melkor realizes what the Flame Imperishable (secret fire) does -- it translates thought into physical reality, it is the essence of creation. He desires it for himself, and he thinks he can actually find this stuff lying about somewhere and tap into it. But, Tolkien tells us that Melkor was mistaken, and all his searching would never bring him to the Flame Imperishable: "Yet he [Melkor] found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar." (A. 16)

So at this point, we have a Flame Imperishable that Eru can use, but it still always remains "with" him alone, so the only place Melkor could profitably look for the stuff would be to enter Eru himself, somehow.

So far, JRRT has produced an internally consistent system, the Flame Imperishable is used to quicken thought into reality, and the stuff is inside Eru exclusively. But then comes the twist, later Tolkien, probably not realizing what he has done, makes the Flame Imperishable alienable from Eru. Now the stuff (in part or whole?) leaves Eru to be englobed at the heart of the World.* This act introduces conflict, it ruptures the symmetry of the original use of the Flame Imperishable as an integral part of Eru, the Flame is no longer "with" him. Now, in a real sense, by alienating the Flame from himself, Eru has put it at hazard of being found by someone like Melkor. Now the flame has a time/ space locality within the World and if Melkor can enter this World (as he does) he can presumably continue his searches until he finds the Flame. Can he then actually access the stuff and twist it to his own purposes? Don't know, Tolkien never defined whether or not the Flame was exclusively useable by Eru.

*In one of his Letters, Tolkien mentions that the concept of "World"/ Arda should not be regarded solely as the body of the planet Earth. Here he extends World to mean at least the entire solar system. Having no good, fulll definition of the Flame Imperishable then allows the speculation that the sun is the core of the World, and therefore the Flame Imperishable IS not at the center of our planet, flat or spherical, but lies within the Sun. See what I mean? Without a good definition of FI, we can even see it as related to the Fires of Hell.

Additionally, Tolkien now would have to consider whether or not Eru was independent of his own created World, or was he, by placing his Flame Imperishable inside the World, somehow bound to the World the same way all of the Valar and Mair (including Melkor) were bound to it once they entered it? Again, because we have no real definition of Flame Imperishable, we simply cannot tell. Tolkien, I aver, recognized these problems, hence his editorial note # 11. And this, as you say, Fan, could have been resolved by simply calling it a "Mystery" on a par with the Trinitarian Mystery. Tolkien could have simply told us (had he lived to publish the Ainulindale himself) that we need not concern ourselves with such contradictions because the Flame is always "with" Eru even if it is separated from him, it is just a Mystery.

Re Fan's: "Though I see a definition for Flame Imperishable (or an explanation if you like that word better), in the quote, I think the purpose of the author's note was to explore the similarities of characteristics to something found in the commentary and the story. I'll get to that later."

I'll wait for this.

Re Fan's: " I disagree that Tolkien questioned himself on this point. I think it is rather plain that Melkor couldn't find it since it was within Eru (from the first pre-1921 version we have of "Music of the Ainur" pg 51 Lost Tales Vol1)"

Yes, the Flame WAS within Eru, but then later it WAS within the World, and this apparent change in the use of the Flame requires an explanation, a proper definition, otherwise it confuses the readers and leads to all sorts of speculation, see above message from Stormrider.

I have a strong feeling at this point, that without the discovery of a "definitive" text from the hand of JRRT, that we will probably not be able to resolve this issue, nontheless, the exercise it affords in trying to think rationally/ logically is a positive Good in itself!

Thanks Fan!

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-12-2008 01:37 PM

[Fanuidhol]

Geez, Dagor.  I leave for a few hours, hoping you'd be sleeping until I could get my bit done, and now I have to deal with writing a rebuttal to your rebuttal of my rebuttal....

And I hope you are cutting and pasting my latest posts from here to TR, as I haven't had the time.

I have not seen any other def...errr...explanation (so far you seem to be leaving that word alone, I can exhale now...) of Flame Imperishable, besides the Author's Note.

I wrote: 

It wasn't all post-1960. He had hopes to publish Silm with LotR and began tinkering with Silm while finishing up LotR. For instance, "The Round World Version" of Ainulindale was lent out in 1948. pg 6 Morgoth's Ring.

I should have included the word AGAIN: ...tinkering again with Silm while finishing up...

I wrote:

"I believe that you are assuming wrongly that JRRT saw contradictions in the "Flame Imperishable". Where do you see changes in its use? I believe on the other hand that your c) "mystery" comes close to what JRRT was always thinking. The mystery is in the "how" Eru and his "flame imperishable" can be within the world and yet separate from it. That's where Christian theology comes in because of the 3 "persons" in 1 God "mystery".

I think we are confusing each other.  I see no contradiction in Tolkien's use of the flame being within Eru and within the world/Arda at the same time.  He doesn't seem to either, from my point of view.  His "Music of the Ainur" written pre-1921 contains these quotes:

"[Melkor] fared often alone into the dark places and the voids seeking the Secret Fire that giveth Life and Reality...yet, he found it not, for it dwelleth with [Eru]." pg 51 Lost Tales vol 1.

"...behold the Secret Fire burnt at the heart of the world."

The version written in the late? 1930's, found in The Lost Road, is basically the same.

And then there is the version found in Morgoth's Ring, dated late 1940's, also, essentially the same for our use.

Don't you think that sometime in the 50+ years between the first story and his last days, he would have been able to come up with something else to call one of them if he felt concerned that there was a contradiction in the Flame being within Eru, and also, within the world?!?!? 

Now to throw you a REALLY BIG curve.   

Return of the Shadow pg 82:

Gandalf to Bingo (pecursor of Frodo) "...You'll have to find one of the Cracks of Earth in the depths of the Fiery Mountain, and drop it down into the Secret Fire..." 

Right under Sauron's nose!!!!

LotR Companion may also shed a little light on pg 296-297.  But, I am too lazy to quote that one.  Be a dear and do it for me, Dagor.

Fan

Message Edited by Fanuidhol on 09-12-2008 03:47 PM

[Fanuidhol]

Onward.

Dagor wrote:

"RE Fan's "Just like the Christian God who is One divided into Three, Eru (because he is the Christian God) can have his "flame imperishable" be separate from him but, still within him."

First one caution, you are assuming Eru = the Christian God, and that would yet take some proving -- there are pagan Norse "All Father" elements mixed in with Eru's development; the world Eru created is not the same as the Genesis account; the status and place of Mankind in Arda is quite different from the Adam and Eve in Eden concept, etc. etc. Eru may have many Jehovah-like attributes (also Nordic All Father attributes), but is he the SAME, Identical God? Would Tolkien ever say that he knew the Christian God well enough to create an exact duplicate of Him for his novel, his mythology?"

Tolkien stated several times in Letters that stories in Silm are mostly Elvish myths and legends, seen with Elvish eyes.  The attributes of Eru don't have to match the God of Genesis exactly.

Chris (pg 328) and I believe that one of the purposes of "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" is to touch on the "Fall of Man" or "Adam and Eve" which according to Letter #131, (pg 147) happened offstage.

It also, sets up the idea that at some point Eru will come into the world and heal Men and all that was marred  --  The coming of Christ. pg 321 and also Commentary pg 335.  "Eru would come incarnated in human form."

Read further into pg 322 and Finrod says "[Eru] is already in it, as well as outside...but indeed the "in-dwelling" and the "out-living" are not in the same mode."  Here is the statement that fueled part of the commentary and then to the Author's note!     

Dagor wrote:

LOL, just as Tolkien had "flat-earth" problems, so I see him having trouble with the Imperishable Flame. He was young, he was enthusiastic, he was writing for himself a new mythology. He made "mistakes," many of them. Some he revised before publication, some he was trying to revise when he died. I do read note 11 as just an editorial comment to himself, pointing out to himself some problems with the Ainulindale that would have to be addressed before it could be published. I also think that In his later years, JRRT grew ever more concerned with stressing/ re-inforcing the Christian "applicabilities" and congruences of his texts -- and here I think he probably would have used the "mystery" option, basing his use of it on the existence of so many other mysteries in the RC faith. It's also the easy way out, GOOD definitions are actually quite hard to compose, but a Mystery is, well it is expected to be "mysterious!" 

I think I have it now.  You think he was pointing out a problem to himself in the Author's Note.  That is where we fundamentally differ on this subject.  I see it as Tolkien's way of showing the differences between Eru (along with the Flame Imperishable) being "in-dwelling and out-living" and what it means when Eru will come into the world to heal it.

The missing section in the quote of the Author's Note is "But this is not, of course, the same as re-entry of Eru to defeat Melkor."  At the time I didn't think it relevant -- very sorry.

"...'Flame Imperishable'.  This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (though derivative and created) existence.  The Flame Imperishable is sent out from Eru, to dwell in the heart of the world, and the world then Is, on the same plane as the Ainur, and they can enter into it.But this is not, of course, the same as re-entry of Eru to defeat Melkor.  It refers rather to the mystery of 'authorship', by which the author, while remaining 'outside' and independent of his work, also 'indwells' in it, on its derivative plane, below that of his own being, as the source and guarantee of its being."

Enough for now.

Fan

[Fanuidhol]

 Dagor,

Well, it seems we need to get ahold of Tolkien and the Silmarillion by Clyde S Kilby.  I have found a couple of references to Tolkien having told Kilby that the Flame Imperishable was similar to the Holy Spirit.

Sanctifying Myth by Bradley Birzer pg 62.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Fire

Fan

[Dagor]

RE Fan's: "Well, it seems we need to get ahold of Tolkien and the Silmarillion by Clyde S Kilby. I have found a couple of references to Tolkien having told Kilby that the Flame Imperishable was similar to the Holy Spirit."

Now see here Fanuidhol, first you scoff at the idea of FI = HS, now, because you find it mentioned in some other published text, it has suddenly become OK to discuss it!? LOL. Yeah, this only drives it further home to me that we do NOT have a useable definition for Flame Imperishable in the HOME passage p. 345 note 11. A decent definition would allow us to measure the FI against such principles as HS. Maybe viewing what Kilby has to say would provide a third take on this matter and loosen the impasse knot? As it stands now, all I can do further here would be a repetition of my arguments above -- and if they are not convincing to you by now, as your's have similarly failed to move me, then perhaps it's time to move on until we do get some outside input? I'm thinking here of the interminable/ ultimately insolvable "Time in Lorien" war...

I'll re-read your latest posts here and try to talk myself into a point of agreement with you somewhere, but I am so obstinant! Must be partially Dwarven in my make-up, stiff-necked and bearded!!!

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-12-2008 10:55 PM

[Fanuidhol]

Gee Whiz, Dagor.  I dusted off those old boxing gloves of mine and now you're telling me that you don't want to meet behind the merry-go-round to finish this in the only way I see possible. 

Oh well, back they go into the box with my first Barbie Doll and that love letter I got in second grade from Raymond.  And back up into the attic....

Fan

[Nadine]

Reposting from Tolkien "Free Will vs Destiny" Thread. I thought it was relevant to the discussion here and that thread is doomed to be lost in oblivion soon.

This is in reference to the Third Melody:

Right at the beginning in the Ainulindale we get the question of Destiny vs. Free Will. Eru gave the Free Will to Men but not to Elves. But my impression was that both seem to make pretty free choices. But then I noticed from some of the earlier discussions here, that there was some question as to whether there was a "divinity that shapes our ends" and there definitely seems to be a hint in the Ainulindale that ERU already knew the outcome of the third melody -- or am I mistaken in my interpretation?


Fanuidhol wrote:

---

Dagor wrote:
In the religion and philosophy of Christianity there has always been a contention between free will and destiny. I think Augustine and Thomas Aquinas address this. As Tolkien sort of combined both Christian and pagan Nordic concepts, the Nordic being strong on predestination, I think it is hard to tell sometimes if Tolkien means destiny to have more sway than free will, or the opposite. If Tolkien is using pagan source material to create his own Early English mythology, it would be reasonable for him to use a lot of predestination as these tales are supposed to be Pre-Christian.

Reading the Silmarillion, the idea seems to be that all of the history of the universe is sung out, so in a way, doesn't this mean that everything is predestined? Maybe the characters go through their actions and make what seems to them to be free will decisions, but they are already ordained? Being a Roman Catholic, that religion tries to give an element of free will so that people can be held accountable for making right and wrong decisions. But if Tolkiens Arda universe is fixed by the song of creation, wouldn't that do away with any real free will? Did Tolkien change his philosophies as he got older, did he try to Christianize his Middle-earth stories more and more? I heard some of his late works when he was rewriting the Silmarillion have big changes towards a more close connection, consistency with Christian thought. Anybody know?

---

"Iluvatar sat alone in thought...[Men] should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else..." toward the end of the chapter "Of the Beginning of Days", The Silmarillion
"A possible distinction between [Elves and Men] may be that Men are given the power to act beyond the Music (that is, to alter external events or circumstances) , while Elves, though bound by the Music, have the freedom to make internal choices...They may have power over their own natures, though not over external happenings." pgs 52-53 Splintered Light by Verlyn Flieger

Yes, Tolkien did work on "a more close connection, consistency with Christian thought". Some of this work can be found in HoMe Vol X: Morgoth's Ring, in the section called "Myths Transformed". In skimming this chapter, just now, I don't think Christopher Tolkien included any of it in Silm. Most if not all of the essays in "Myths Transformed" were written after LotR.
Fan

[Nadine]

The Four Elements

Tolkien has taken the traditional four elements and assigned them to each of his major sub-gods: Earth, Water, Fire and Air. This is from Ainulindale (page 19 or thereabouts):

Earth: "Of the fabric of Earth had Aule thought, to whom Illuvatar given had skill and knowledge..."

Water: "Now to water had that Ainu whom the Elves call Ulmo turned his thought..."

Fire: "Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint..."

Air: "But of the airs and winds Manwe most had pondered..."

I guess we get to sort out all these gods in the next section.

[Dagor]

---

Fanuidhol wrote:

Gee Whiz, Dagor. I dusted off those old boxing gloves of mine and now you're telling me that you don't want to meet behind the merry-go-round to finish this in the only way I see possible.

Oh well, back they go into the box with my first Barbie Doll and that love letter I got in second grade from Raymond. And back up into the attic....

Fan

---

OK, Fan, I was trying to do you a favor here, sigh, trying to spare you yet another public "drubbing." Toss Raymond and Barbie out of the way, lace on dem gloves!

The mere fact that Tolkien could at one point in the composition of LOTR view "The Secret Fire" as bubbling up under Mount Doom seems very suggestive that he never had for himself a proper definition of the stuff, if we assume Secret Fire to be fully synonymous with Flame Imperishable as the Ainulindale of The Silmarillion has it. If the Secret Fire is FI, and it bubbles to the surface in Mordor, would this not have given Sauron access to the very stuff of creation? Wisely, JRRT deleted this identification of Secret Fire from the text before publication, otherwise, Sauron could have used the SF/ FI to bring his own thoughts into an independent physical reality. Tolkien would then have had to explain that although the SF/ FI was available, for some reason Sauron could not use it for any purpose other than the power source of his One Ring-- more clumsy revision...

I believe, long ago, we once discussed the nature of the Rings of Power, and I raised the possibility back then that all of the Rings were mere conduits channeling the power of some central principle. Here with the Bingo passage, it seems Tolkien was (at one stage in LOTR's composition) toying with that exact concept. The Secret Fire of Mount Doom was the birthplace of the One Ring, and the other Elven Rings might be supposed to have a similar root in the SF, though from other volcanic vents. This use of the Secret Fire would, of course, be inconsistent with its earlier use as the Flame Imperishable, the stuff of creation that is "Mysteriously" WITH and yet detachable from Eru. As late as the composition of the early version LOTR (Bingo instead of Frodo), the idea of the Secret Fire (presumably still synonymous with the Flame Imperishable?) is quite fluid, quite without a true definition.

I also feel even more confident now, that the passage on p. 345 of HOME X is not a definition, not even an attempt at one, but merely a note of inquiry to himself, pointing out the way in which he used FI back in the 1920s. It stands as a reminder to himself that if he were to produce a publishable version of his mythology, this was one more inconsistency that he would have to resolve.

******

Standing alone, dawn. A breeze, thin and cold stirs the swings, and sets the merry-go-round into a complaining whine, rotating slowly. A dark figure of menace approaches, nail-studded gloves upon its hands...

Message Edited by Dagor on 09-14-2008 02:57 PM