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Tabbran
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

 

From Ken's journal (10/13/09):

"CANTICLE was written and revised in the grief storm of my mother's death and my nephew's death.  I didn't think it could get harder until I found myself writing ANTIPHON through the death of my father.  Tough stuff to weather while writing my second and third novels, but some of that tough stuff lent itself to the books, I think." 

 


 

I did see that just after I posted, and the color and tone of the new novel is definitely influenced.  It isn't a bad thing, I just want to know if I should head to Costco and buy some Kleenex :smileyhappy:

 

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kenscholes
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes

That's excellent, Krista.  Make sure your friend tells me they are your friend and that they mention the Barnes and Noble thread.  :smileyhappy: 

 

And for folks who want personalized, signed copies of anything I have in print but can't get out to signings:  Saint Helens Bookshop (just down the street) will gladly sell and ship you these.  They have me down to sign and personalize books as they're ordered and I'm always happy to do so!

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paulgoatallen
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes

How's this for discussion sections? I had a hard time chopping up the last section since it really picks up speed and goes uber-fast.

 

Section One – page 1 - page 163 Chapter 1 - 10

Section Two – page 163 - page 260 Chapter 11 - 17

Section Three – page 248 - 383 Chapter 18 - End

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Nadine
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Question for Ken

Hi Ken,

 

Good to see you are back and better that you are staying with us beyond the "official" termination date since many of us haven't had a chance to read Canticle yet.

 

I do have a general question for you. You obviously know where this series is going and how it is going to tie together at the end. But I was wondering how much have you worked out the ending in detail or if you generally know how it will end but let the details evolve as you actually write the series?

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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Question for Ken

 

Another question.

 

I really enjoyed the audio to Lamentation and thought it well done and listened to it after reading the book. It gave me different perspective on things. I was planning on doing the same again with Canticle. It looked as though the audio was going to be released at the same time as the book but it seems that it is delayed with no publication date in sight. Do you have any idea why and when it is going to be published?

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Melhay
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Question for Ken


Nadine wrote:

Hi Ken,

 

Good to see you are back and better that you are staying with us beyond the "official" termination date since many of us haven't had a chance to read Canticle yet.

 

I do have a general question for you. You obviously know where this series is going and how it is going to tie together at the end. But I was wondering how much have you worked out the ending in detail or if you generally know how it will end but let the details evolve as you actually write the series?


 

Great question Nadine.  I think I may want to add a little to this with the different plots and such.

 

I keep thinking of all the different lines that are going.  The different stories that all intersect at some points and the different plots that hit different people at different times and in different ways.  I guess, how do you keep all these separate and not lose track of where you are going or have been?

 

I think earlier you answered the question on if you use outlines and you said no.  You are amazing and disciplined your writing to keep everything juggling in your head.

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kenscholes
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Question for Ken

Howdy all!

 

Nadine, I was unaware of the delay on Canticle's audio version.  I've got a note out asking about it.  I was pretty sure it had a Oct 13 pub date, too.  I'll let you know.

 

As to the plotting -- I do have the Big Picture ending in mind and (for Melhay) I have the rough sketch of where all the individual threads are heading and how they form up into that Big Picture.  I know who comes out scathed, unscathed and who (alas) doesn't make it in the end...and roughly the things that have to happen.  But the actual details of how, within each book, they get there...those are showing up organically as I write.

 

I don't have a written outline at this point though I'm taking down notes here and there.  And I keep it straight partly because the publishing process lets me spend time in the previous books while working on the present book.  I'm revising Antiphon just ahead of starting Requiem; I'll copyedit Antiphon while drafting Requiem.  That keeps the story fresh in mind while I spin the next leg.  And for whatever reason, I just seem to have an aptitude for keeping it all straight in my head.  Though I'm willing to bet a dozen doughnuts that when it's all said and done, there will be errors and omissions. 

 

That will leave room Someday (I hope I hope) for The Psalms of Isaak Definitive Edition.  ; )

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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Question for Ken

bno
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

How's this for discussion sections? I had a hard time chopping up the last section since it really picks up speed and goes uber-fast.

 

Section One – page 1 - page 163 Chapter 1 - 10

Section Two – page 163 - page 260 Chapter 11 - 17

Section Three – page 248 - 383 Chapter 18 - End


 

I just received my copy of Canticle and I'm looking forward to starting it tonight. Hopefully, I will be through Section One this weekend.

 

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Nelsmom
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes

I was planning on getting Canticle when it came out in paperback but since Audible has got it and I can get it next month with my credits I can reread it sooner than I had thought I also will proably get Lamantations with my other credit even though I have the book thanks to a friend but now I can listen to both on my bus trips to school.  Thanks Ken for letting me know that Audible has both of your books.

 

Toni

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Melhay
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes


bno wrote:

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

How's this for discussion sections? I had a hard time chopping up the last section since it really picks up speed and goes uber-fast.

 

Section One – page 1 - page 163 Chapter 1 - 10

Section Two – page 163 - page 260 Chapter 11 - 17

Section Three – page 248 - 383 Chapter 18 - End


 

I just received my copy of Canticle and I'm looking forward to starting it tonight. Hopefully, I will be through Section One this weekend.

 


Welcome bno!  Chime in at any time!  Great to see new people around the boards.  Hope to see you around many of them.

 

Melissa

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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

[ Edited ]

 


Melhay wrote:

Hey Ken this is very interesting about the songs, and from The Weeping Czar.  Thanks for the little clue as to the worlds.

 

I am only on page 68, yes I am a slow reader - I savier the reading and think on it as I go.  But I love how in this short amount of pages there is a short briefing as to where everyone was left off and what they have been up to till now.  But the biggest amazment to me is the way it is all blended with what the new happenings and chaos is.  The action starts right off from page 1!  You don't wait to catch us up but do it at the same time as new movements are going on.  I was not able to put this book down.  I think this weekend will be spent with many hours having my nose in this book.  I have many questions just this far into the book.  I may be posting ideas as I go with this some over the weekend.


 

 

I'm a slow reader as well. I agree that we are painlessly brought up-to-date on what has happened so far -- it is both a reminder to those of us who read Lamentation last spring and the story is a bit fuzzy now, and also to the person who is jumping into Canticle and has not read Lamentation. But, if I'm not mistaken, there is a lot of new information being shared with the reader. Or maybe it was scattered through Lamentation and I didn't pull it all together at the time. But I feel I am getting a lot of NEW information, especially on the pre-history to the events that transpired in Lamentation. I'm only up to page 54 so this might go on a bit longer. I have been marking in my book some key points that I think will be relevant. I might mention some here but I think they are too numerous to actually list -- at least at this point.

 

So far, though, no surprises. Unfortunately the first real grabber surprise, the attack during the feast, was reveiled in every summary of the book, including the dust jacket.

 

I might mention that I had a very difficult time logging on yesterday. It seems OK today -- at least I was able to get in. I hope this sort of difficulty isn't usual.

 

--------------------

Edit: Forgot to indicate I was on Section 1. Sorry. My Chapter 10 ends on page 161, but I guess the break is at Chapter 10.

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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes

 


bno wrote:

 I just received my copy of Canticle and I'm looking forward to starting it tonight. Hopefully, I will be through Section One this weekend.

 


 

 

Welcome to the forums, bno – I'm so psyched to see new readers here! And as far as "no surprises" yet, brace yourself! without giving too much away, that's one of the many reasons why I love this saga so much. When I read fantasy series like Feist's Midkemia, Goodkind's sword of Truth, Salvatore's Drizzt, etc. it's not often that I'm just floored from a plot twist. Alot of adventure fantasy is formula/convention and, in some cases, I can almost accurately generalize the storyline from beginning to end without even reading a page. Not so with Ken's Psalms of Isaak. There were so many plot bombshells in this novel – I felt shell-shocked when I was done! So keep reading – I think you'll find yourself blissfully surprised soon enough!

 

We discussed this before in Lamentation and I ran across it again in Canticle, on page 108 – the blue-green moon. Do you readers think this is significant or not?     :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

 


bno wrote:

 I just received my copy of Canticle and I'm looking forward to starting it tonight. Hopefully, I will be through Section One this weekend.

 


 

 

Welcome to the forums, bno – I'm so psyched to see new readers here! And as far as "no surprises" yet, brace yourself! without giving too much away, that's one of the many reasons why I love this saga so much. When I read fantasy series like Feist's Midkemia, Goodkind's sword of Truth, Salvatore's Drizzt, etc. it's not often that I'm just floored from a plot twist. Alot of adventure fantasy is formula/convention and, in some cases, I can almost accurately generalize the storyline from beginning to end without even reading a page. Not so with Ken's Psalms of Isaak. There were so many plot bombshells in this novel – I felt shell-shocked when I was done! So keep reading – I think you'll find yourself blissfully surprised soon enough!

 

We discussed this before in Lamentation and I ran across it again in Canticle, on page 108 – the blue-green moon. Do you readers think this is significant or not?     :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 


 

 

Actually, I came across this very early in the book and it seems to be significant enough to to warrent multiple mention. It was in Vlad Li Tam's POV on my page 31.

 

"She had come to him when the moon rose up over the silver sea and cast lines of blue-green across the waters."

 

Our moon is not blue-green so I suspect this is another place. Winter's also mentions something similar, but I'm not sure if it is the same thing. It is at the bottom of my page 29.

 

"They dreamed of the new home Neb would find, of being limb-tangled and naked in a silk-draped bed, staring up at a massive, swollen, brown-and-blue world that filled the sky."

 

(Are these quotes OK on a "family" discussion board?) A brown-blue world could be the earth viewed from a space ship.

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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

 


bno wrote:

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

 


bno wrote:

 I just received my copy of Canticle and I'm looking forward to starting it tonight. Hopefully, I will be through Section One this weekend.

 


 

 

Welcome to the forums, bno – I'm so psyched to see new readers here! And as far as "no surprises" yet, brace yourself! without giving too much away, that's one of the many reasons why I love this saga so much. When I read fantasy series like Feist's Midkemia, Goodkind's sword of Truth, Salvatore's Drizzt, etc. it's not often that I'm just floored from a plot twist. Alot of adventure fantasy is formula/convention and, in some cases, I can almost accurately generalize the storyline from beginning to end without even reading a page. Not so with Ken's Psalms of Isaak. There were so many plot bombshells in this novel – I felt shell-shocked when I was done! So keep reading – I think you'll find yourself blissfully surprised soon enough!

 

We discussed this before in Lamentation and I ran across it again in Canticle, on page 108 – the blue-green moon. Do you readers think this is significant or not?     :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 


 

 

Actually, I came across this very early in the book and it seems to be significant enough to to warrent multiple mention. It was in Vlad Li Tam's POV on my page 31.

 

"She had come to him when the moon rose up over the silver sea and cast lines of blue-green across the waters."

 

Our moon is not blue-green so I suspect this is another place. Winter's also mentions something similar, but I'm not sure if it is the same thing. It is at the bottom of my page 29.

 

"They dreamed of the new home Neb would find, of being limb-tangled and naked in a silk-draped bed, staring up at a massive, swollen, brown-and-blue world that filled the sky."

 

(Are these quotes OK on a "family" discussion board?) A brown-blue world could be the earth viewed from a space ship.


bno:
Excellent quotes (and, yes, they're perfectly fine)! I'm going to go to the Lamentation thread and see if I can find where we talked about this..... if I can find it, I'll paste it here asap!
Paul

 

 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

From Nadine (3/14/2009):

 

I have been pondering when and where this time and place is. Of course, being fantasy it does not have to be anywhere. But Ken does have a mixed bag here so it could be. Everything could match our world either in the far past or far future. The moon however is a blue-green. Seems like a viable place in its own right and not our dead moon.


But last night I read an interesting narrative of Petronus that got me thinking.

------------------------------------------
.pg 131...He watched that blue green globe and wondered at the power of the Younger Gods. Once, in the oldest, oldest times, it had been gray and barren. But according to the legends, the Younger Gods had brought it water and soil and air, turning it to a paradise. He'd even read one surviving fragment from the Hundred Tales of Felip Carnelyin, who claimed to have traveled there to see many wonders, including, the Moon Wizard's tower -- a structure that could be seen with the naked eye on some nights.
----------------------------------------

Now fantasy need ever answer this question of real time or place so it is something that will probably never be addressed. But it seems that Ken might be building up hints that this is actually speculation about our future. Certainly a very old  and advanced science and technology could be viewed as "magic" by some future people who had pulled themselves out of a primitive past.. But I was wondering if any of you have any thoughts or speculations on if this could possibly be our future?
"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

From Melissa (3/14/2009):

You mentioned the blue green moon from pg 131.  I started thinking on that.  When Neb and Winteria talk of their dream pg 292 they mention the moon also, "In one of those dreams, they lay beneath a clear canopy looking up on a moon far more massive and blue and green and brown than the one that the one that hung in their night sky."  Then Winteria mentions, "This dream is of our home."

 

This seems to me that something will change.  What will change?  Could this be just due to the planet being closer to the moon due to season or is it for something bigger?  What do you take from it?  Also, Winteria was worried over the "the second death in the fire for the Androfrancine sin."  This will most likely evolve more, but what does this mean to you?

 

Mel

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

From Nadine (3/15/2009):

SPOILER

 

This is a link that may open up a lot more possibilities.

 

The possible blue-green-brown moon in the dream.Image...

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

From Nadine (3/19/2009):

 


Nadine wrote:
I just reread and listened to The Weeping Czar. My first question is to Ken. Was this written as a specific backstory to Psalms of Isaak or was this just a short story using the same mythology and world?

I assume this story, The Weeping Czar takes place in the past of Lamentation. It seems to explain at least the first war that devastated the planet. There is the "earth" and above it the blue-green moon that is the home of the Wizard Raj Y'Zir. It is a habitable world much like earth and is thought to have been the home of the younger gods. This wizard appears to be the creator of the mechoservitos (Isaak) and the mechanical birds. This bit of information may put a whole new spin on some of the things we have been delving into.

There seems to be a pool whereas prepared people can travel to the earth. The Wizard's first daughter came to earth and was captured, tortured, and killed. However, there was a Lunerist cult that knew of this and they were also persecuted. Apparently this brought kind of a weeping curse on the original Czar and his offspring, but this is more speculation on my part. The last weeping Czar, Frederico, finds a communication devise and ends up talking to Amal Y'Zir, Raj Y'zir only remaining daughter. They fall in love and she attempts to reach him through the pool but her body is not prepared for the trip and she essentially dies. This really brings down the wrath of the Wizard and so begins the Year of the Falling Moon and the eventual war.

Through this experience, Frederico loses his weeping inclination, becomes happy and is considered mad. Maybe this is the source of the idea of the "Laughing Madness." The Wizard and his daughter live a very long time -- centuries, and this may be significant.

This is an over simplification and I may not have gotten it all correctly, so any of the others who have read this story might want to clarify and expand on my brief synopsis. I think it is worth reading as a backgrounder. 

I printed out the story in the tiny web site print(which was terribly hard reading) but I think would make a good reference document if any of us wish to reference it by page number. My copy in this form comes to 25 pages.

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes - Section One –Chapter 1 - 10

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

From Nadine (3/19/2009):

 


Nadine wrote:
I just reread and listened to The Weeping Czar. My first question is to Ken. Was this written as a specific backstory to Psalms of Isaak or was this just a short story using the same mythology and world?

I assume this story, The Weeping Czar takes place in the past of Lamentation. It seems to explain at least the first war that devastated the planet. There is the "earth" and above it the blue-green moon that is the home of the Wizard Raj Y'Zir. It is a habitable world much like earth and is thought to have been the home of the younger gods. This wizard appears to be the creator of the mechoservitos (Isaak) and the mechanical birds. This bit of information may put a whole new spin on some of the things we have been delving into.

There seems to be a pool whereas prepared people can travel to the earth. The Wizard's first daughter came to earth and was captured, tortured, and killed. However, there was a Lunerist cult that knew of this and they were also persecuted. Apparently this brought kind of a weeping curse on the original Czar and his offspring, but this is more speculation on my part. The last weeping Czar, Frederico, finds a communication devise and ends up talking to Amal Y'Zir, Raj Y'zir only remaining daughter. They fall in love and she attempts to reach him through the pool but her body is not prepared for the trip and she essentially dies. This really brings down the wrath of the Wizard and so begins the Year of the Falling Moon and the eventual war.

Through this experience, Frederico loses his weeping inclination, becomes happy and is considered mad. Maybe this is the source of the idea of the "Laughing Madness." The Wizard and his daughter live a very long time -- centuries, and this may be significant.

This is an over simplification and I may not have gotten it all correctly, so any of the others who have read this story might want to clarify and expand on my brief synopsis. I think it is worth reading as a backgrounder. 

I printed out the story in the tiny web site print(which was terribly hard reading) but I think would make a good reference document if any of us wish to reference it by page number. My copy in this form comes to 25 pages.


 

 

Mr. Scholes mentioned this story in posting #6 and clearly stated that it was relevant to Canticle:

 

"Anyway, here I am!  CANTICLE is out tomorrow.  Meanwhile, if you haven't read it yet, there is a story that ties in to CANTICLE over at  http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=story&id=13879.  It gives some interesting backstory to the Psalms of Isaak."

 

This is also mentioned very early on on my page 43 in Petronus' POV:

 

"He'd read stories of course, from the Year of the Falling Moon and the early days of the War of the Weeping Czar."