Melhay wrote:Okay all... I am going to start posting some ideas and questions here that I have for through the end of the book. This ending was great! You really did pick a great stopping point Paul. It just ran from chapter 18 till the end.
I am going to start with Neb. I do have to say I love Neb and Isaak and the metal men. There seemed to not be much of them here in this book. They are so important to what is happening by you are not seeing much to them. I want more of Neb and this with the metal men and Isaak, I love the mystery behind them - I guess this mystery is partly why I want more of them. Great job with that Ken!
***SPOILERS***
Okay what is the story with the Waste Lands? Is there that much magick out there?
Neb is changing
Pg 268 - a strength was coming from him, his mind focused clearer & calm, his body felt like a lute coming into tune. He slept dreamless and deep.
Pg 375 – the birds don’t hold their magicks in the Wastes.
Pg 295 – the Song in the Wastes makes Neb laugh & cry. Why? How? Magicked? This song even makes the Metal man Charles laugh and cry.
It just seems strange to me about the Churned Wastes having this affect on people
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I agree, I think there must be something in the Waste Lands that can affect people and even machines. This is where Neb is to find his destiny. And there does seem to be some sort a "barrier" maybe a magic shield of some kind that blocks out Neb's dreams and Winters cannot reach him anymore. Don't forget this was also a restricted area. The Keeper's Gate was ment to keep people out and you needed special permission to enter. Maybe because the "magic" here affects people and changes them. And there is also the restriction imposed by Charles-the-machine at D'Anjite's Bridge, the only way from the overland route into The Churning Waste. But there is also access to this area from the south sea, especially from the Ghosting Crests and I will have lots to say on this later. I gather early on the original Marchers and Gypsies migrated from here to the eastern lands. We don't know a lot about why yet or how they got there. We are not even sure if this was a Wymer or Y'Zir domain (a lot on that later!).The song is obviously very important, especially toward the end. But it is also sung (maybe heard) by the Gypsy army and also by Rudolfo who even knows the words. Ken keeps pounding the significance of this song into us, especially toward the end. And his last post is a big hint:---------------------------------------Ken wrote:By the way, did anyone else pick up on the notion that an antiphon is a response to a canticle?-------------------------------------------------I believe Ken is indicating the plot direction and I have some big ideas on that one. But I need to build my case first. Don't forget this is also Petronus' destination..
Even when Renard started running out here with Neb and the Scouts following he started laughing funny as well. And Neb said he could feel something.
I think it is more than the Crescent that he finds out here. I think there is a lot more out here.
paulgoatallen wrote:
Nadine wrote:I believe Ken is indicating the plot direction and I have some big ideas on that one. But I need to build my case first. Don't forget this is also Petronus' destination.
.
Even when Renard started running out here with Neb and the Scouts following he started laughing funny as well. And Neb said he could feel something.
I think it is more than the Crescent that he finds out here. I think there is a lot more out here.
Nadine:
Wow. You're right (I think).And if that IS the case, then I would guess that Antiphon would be hugely powered by Neb's unfolding storyline.... And Charles has to be significant or else Ken wouldn't have mentioned him (or it).... Hmmm.....
Paul
Ken wrote:
By the way, did anyone else pick up on the notion that an antiphon is a response to a canticle?
_____________________________
Don't forget all, The metal man told Neb that the song required an answer. This was a big thing for Neb when he was trying to figure out the cipher. He kept thinking this. And even after he found the crescent he thought the same thing,
pg 372:
...Tinny and far away, the song played out from it and he lifted it, holding it against the backdrop of the dim light from above. The song grew louder, and beneath it, Neb heard the croaking of frogs and the distant burbling of a brook.
Beneath his fingers, he felt the line of continents and mountains upon the crescent-shaped object. He held it to his ear and felt the solid comfort of how it fit there.
It requires a response.
Then I also think this is important also, on the crescent. Just a little further down the page.
He knew what he would see, but he did not know how he knew it. Still, holding it up against the moon, he saw the sliver for what it was and compared the rough map of its surface to the blue-green orb that hung in the night sky behind it.
They matched. It was the moon.
Starlight and moonlight swarled in its silver surface, and it was a metal that he'd seen before. The same strange and ancient steel that formed the Firstfall axe of Winters's office. Bringing it down, he rested the silver crescent between his shoulder and the side of his head, cradling it against himself so that his ear was pressed up to it.
This is the source of the dream. Hidden within that "Canticle to the Fallen Moon" lay Neb's destiny, and he welcomed it.
This crescent is a map of the moon. But it also matches the metal of Winters's axe. Could this axe of Winters be part of her dreaming ability? Should this crescent be matched up with the axe?
The song Canticle of the Fallen Moon is a big clue to what ever is going to happen. I was hoping we would get the words to the song when Rudolfo started to sing. I think Rudolfos clues of what the song is about is a big thing as well. I will have to search those out of my notes after dinner here to add them to our list.
paulgoatallen wrote:
Nadine wrote:
You've got to be kidding Paul! Wrapping up this discussion by the end of the week! Have you seen the list of questions and observations Melissa has posted? It will probably take most of this week to get through those. And I haven't even started to warm up yet! In fact I'm not even sure where to begin because I want to be a bit systematic in presenting my points and there are so many points and directions in this Wymer's Maze!
Ha! Yeah, I know, Nadine! I just didn't want to scare Ken off by saying, "we'll send you a bunch of questions later this week, then next week, and the week after that..."!
I'd love to get more tidbits from Ken – I think the more we figure out now, the more we'll want to get our hands on Antiphon...
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Ok We will break him in gently! He has to know we are in for the duration. I was even thinking of starting an Antiphon thread so I could put all my upcoming speculations in one place. Then I would be ready to go when we get our ARCs
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You know, THIS is what epic SF/fantasy is all about, in my opinion. We've got an incredibly intricate storyline with so many plotlines and mysteries.... We also have a series with some profoundly "deep" themes – what it means to be "human," the potential annihilation of the race, redemption, hope, etc. And it make it all just a masterwork, it's a wildly entertaining story with brilliantly realized characters, amazing world-building and backstory, symbolism and allegory....
I LOVE THESE NOVELS!!!
Paul
This is perfect series for this level of discussion. It is full of clues and changes in direction, the books are coming out at reasonable time period, there is a finite number so we know there is going to be a resolution and ending in the near future, AND no one knows the ending yet or how we get there -- maybe not even Ken. 
I mentioned this in Lamentation and I will again here, it is what Harry Potter was as "guessing" book but I think better. Unfortunately it doesn't have the publicity. What Ken has to do is offend some outspoken group so they can condemn it. Best way to boost sales.
kenscholes wrote:Hi All! It's been fun watching the speculation and then seeing as some of you hit the finish line. Sorry to have been so quiet -- the book tour, combined with World Fantasy, took it out of me. You'll be pleased to hear that Antiphon is indeed turned in, revisions and all, and I'm getting ready to sink my teeth into Requiem.
I'm very happy to answer questions but at this point, it's probably most useful if they're gathered up in one email and sent over to me. I'm happy to take a stab at them, though, at any time.
Some of you are scary-good at figuring out where I'm headed.
SPOILER ALERT:
I've seen talk about the metal Charles and am wondering if anyone picked up on the fact that he's not really named Charles, that he was merely scripted (by Charles, who was in captivity with him) to bear the message in an attempt to find and warn Petronus. Alas, the message arrived a bit late.
I may not have been clear enough there.
I'm glad you folks are enjoying the books. Again, happy to answer questions if you have any. Gather them up at the end of a week and send them along. Feel free to keep at me, too, and I'll come back and answer as needed.
I love having you folks as a part of my readership. Big thanks to Paul for having me out again. I'll keep bouncing into the room to see what's up but don't be shy. I'm easily found but starting to heat up for volume 4....
By the way, did anyone else pick up on the notion that an antiphon is a response to a canticle?
Hey Ken,
I think this is a sign of an awesome author with an epic tale to tell.
You have given us the clues, yet there are many pieces that could go in any direction. We are taking the wonderous story you have told and try to piece the pieces together along with the mystery that is still not answered yet. You have laid the many paths for us, we just have to choose one. We think he have picked the proper path but at any time we could come to a fork in the road and have to guess again. Your story can go in any direction, we are just trying to pick the most logical one in this world. Which you could always change on us.
But, Ken, if you ever need any help just drop us a line. I know I would love to help you out with any story.
Melissa
Melhay wrote:
paulgoatallen wrote:
Nadine wrote:I believe Ken is indicating the plot direction and I have some big ideas on that one. But I need to build my case first. Don't forget this is also Petronus' destination.
.
Even when Renard started running out here with Neb and the Scouts following he started laughing funny as well. And Neb said he could feel something.
I think it is more than the Crescent that he finds out here. I think there is a lot more out here.
Nadine:
Wow. You're right (I think).And if that IS the case, then I would guess that Antiphon would be hugely powered by Neb's unfolding storyline.... And Charles has to be significant or else Ken wouldn't have mentioned him (or it).... Hmmm.....
Paul
Ken wrote:By the way, did anyone else pick up on the notion that an antiphon is a response to a canticle?_____________________________
Don't forget all, The metal man told Neb that the song required an answer. This was a big thing for Neb when he was trying to figure out the cipher. He kept thinking this. And even after he found the crescent he thought the same thing,
pg 372:
...Tinny and far away, the song played out from it and he lifted it, holding it against the backdrop of the dim light from above. The song grew louder, and beneath it, Neb heard the croaking of frogs and the distant burbling of a brook.
Beneath his fingers, he felt the line of continents and mountains upon the crescent-shaped object. He held it to his ear and felt the solid comfort of how it fit there.
It requires a response.
--------------------------------------------------
------- Nadine: Great find Melissa. Of course. Ken just keeps hitting us over the head with this. This song is really important and so is the Weeping Czar story. I think I wil have to read it again with the ending of this book in mind now.
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--------
Then I also think this is important also, on the crescent. Just a little further down the page.
He knew what he would see, but he did not know how he knew it. Still, holding it up against the moon, he saw the sliver for what it was and compared the rough map of its surface to the blue-green orb that hung in the night sky behind it.
They matched. It was the moon.
Starlight and moonlight swarled in its silver surface, and it was a metal that he'd seen before. The same strange and ancient steel that formed the Firstfall axe of Winters's office. Bringing it down, he rested the silver crescent between his shoulder and the side of his head, cradling it against himself so that his ear was pressed up to it.
This is the source of the dream. Hidden within that "Canticle to the Fallen Moon" lay Neb's destiny, and he welcomed it.
This crescent is a map of the moon. But it also matches the metal of Winters's axe. Could this axe of Winters be part of her dreaming ability? Should this crescent be matched up with the axe?
The song Canticle of the Fallen Moon is a big clue to what ever is going to happen. I was hoping we would get the words to the song when Rudolfo started to sing. I think Rudolfos clues of what the song is about is a big thing as well. I will have to search those out of my notes after dinner here to add them to our list.
-------------------------------------------
Nadine:
I'm in full agreement here. I will have to go back and check out the Axe as well. I think you have a good theory here but I'm not sure if Winters had the axe when they were dreaming. Hanric might have had it. I think the axe had some special additional powers -- Winters could see the blood magic individuals in its reflecting surface even though they were totally invisible. But it would seem that Crescent and the Axe were both of the same "moon" or magic metal.
While I'm looking back at this I might have to go back to the cave -- it is the place where the Dream Books are. Interesting parallels that this "library" of Dream Books seems similar the Vlad Li Tam's library that he destroyed in Lamentation. And maybe everything is connect to the great library that was destroyed in Windwir and the Sanctorium Lux destroyed in The Churning Waste. And we can't forget that Rudolfo is building a library in an effort to save "the light." All these libraries must have some special significance and relationship to each other but right now I don't know what.
Melhay wrote:
kenscholes wrote:Hi All! It's been fun watching the speculation and then seeing as some of you hit the finish line. Sorry to have been so quiet -- the book tour, combined with World Fantasy, took it out of me. You'll be pleased to hear that Antiphon is indeed turned in, revisions and all, and I'm getting ready to sink my teeth into Requiem.
I'm very happy to answer questions but at this point, it's probably most useful if they're gathered up in one email and sent over to me. I'm happy to take a stab at them, though, at any time.
Some of you are scary-good at figuring out where I'm headed.
SPOILER ALERT:
I've seen talk about the metal Charles and am wondering if anyone picked up on the fact that he's not really named Charles, that he was merely scripted (by Charles, who was in captivity with him) to bear the message in an attempt to find and warn Petronus. Alas, the message arrived a bit late.
I may not have been clear enough there.
I'm glad you folks are enjoying the books. Again, happy to answer questions if you have any. Gather them up at the end of a week and send them along. Feel free to keep at me, too, and I'll come back and answer as needed.
I love having you folks as a part of my readership. Big thanks to Paul for having me out again. I'll keep bouncing into the room to see what's up but don't be shy. I'm easily found but starting to heat up for volume 4....
By the way, did anyone else pick up on the notion that an antiphon is a response to a canticle?
Hey Ken,
I think this is a sign of an awesome author with an epic tale to tell.
You have given us the clues, yet there are many pieces that could go in any direction. We are taking the wonderous story you have told and try to piece the pieces together along with the mystery that is still not answered yet. You have laid the many paths for us, we just have to choose one. We think he have picked the proper path but at any time we could come to a fork in the road and have to guess again. Your story can go in any direction, we are just trying to pick the most logical one in this world. Which you could always change on us.
But, Ken, if you ever need any help just drop us a line. I know I would love to help you out with any story.
Melissa
Ken wrote:
Some of you are scary-good at figuring out where I'm headed.
--------------------------------------------------
Did you notice that Ken didn't tell us what we figured out! Now we just have to figure out what we figured out was right and discount all the rest that we didn't figure out correctly and we have it made!
Ken wrote:
Some of you are scary-good at figuring out where I'm headed.
--------------------------------------------------
Nadine wrote:
Did you notice that Ken didn't tell us what we figured out! Now we just have to figure out what we figured out was right and discount all the rest that we didn't figure out correctly and we have it made!
_________________________________________________
Hey Nadine,
I think that may be easier said then done. We all have thrown some great stuff into the mix here. So, where do we start eliminating at? 
