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Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

I found Melissa's song reference:

 

-----------------------------------------------

Melissa wrote:

 

page 376:

   How long since she sang this to me? He could not remember, and he felt a tug of loss when he sought her face in his memory and could not find it. But he remembered these lyrics. They sopke of love requited, though with sacrifices made, of bargaining pools in the basement of the world and ghosts that swam a haunted sea. It was a song about tears and separation, desperate hope and misguided faith. It was a song about the love between a Weeping Czar and a Moon Wizard's daughter.

 

========================================

 

Now I'm going to have to think about this one when I get back. See you later.

Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Ok I haven't had time to read everything, but just a couple things. Sorry if they are duplicate.

 

I loved the last 2 pages. We were right on. The mechoservitor,  just who is he communicating with?

I am guessing with a Blood Wizard on the Moon or a master mechoservitor on the moon.

 

Neb, I wonder now who he is dreaming about. Is it Winters or Winters the oldest sister?

Since they look so much alike, it is a possibility. Wouldn't that be a twist?

pen21

Moderator
paulgoatallen
Posts: 7,327
Registered: ‎08-16-2007

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


kenscholes wrote:

Hmmm.  I think I saw somewhere on here that someone read the mechoservitors couldn't hear the song...?

 

I need to check that because if I wrote that, it was an error in the text.

 

Of course, all of your sleuthing has shown me some loose threads that I forgot to wrap up in Antiphon but they're easily tackled in Requiem.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

You all are great.  I'm glad you're enjoying the books.  I'm already getting excited to "see" you puzzle out Antiphon when it comes out.

 

Paul, does B&N have a chat feature?  Wouldn't it be nice to throw a little chat party with eveyrone?

 

Ken


 

 

Ken:

Hey, that IS a great idea (the chat party)! I've got a few really cool ideas for Antiphon so hopefully by next fall I can figure out how to pull some type of chat party off as well.

 

I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here but as a longtime SF/fantasy book reviewer, I've read arguably more books in the last 20 years than just about anyone. And The Psalms of Isaak is easily one of the very best sagas I've ever read. I hate judging a series before it's completed but if Lamentation and Canticle are any indication, this saga has the potential to be not only one of the best SF/fantasy epics of all time but THE saga that redefines, redirects, and reenergizes the SF and fantasy genres.

 

I can't say it any clearer than this: If you're a SF and/or epic fantasy fan, you have to read these novels – obviously because it's an incredibly entertaining and profoundly moving multi-layered tapestry of a story but also because of the potential historical significance here.... As Herbert's Dune trilogy redefined SF in the '60's and '70's, so too is The Psalms of Isaak poised to redefine both fantasy and SF in the 21st century. Mark my words.

 

Paul

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


pen21 wrote:

Ok I haven't had time to read everything, but just a couple things. Sorry if they are duplicate.

 

I loved the last 2 pages. We were right on. The mechoservitor,  just who is he communicating with?

I am guessing with a Blood Wizard on the Moon or a master mechoservitor on the moon.

 

Neb, I wonder now who he is dreaming about. Is it Winters or Winters the oldest sister?

Since they look so much alike, it is a possibility. Wouldn't that be a twist?

pen21


 

Wow, Pen! What a brilliant theory! That would be a twist. What an idea!

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Metal men are a major player in this series. I think there is a master controller. I think the metal man at the end of this book was communicating with the master mechoservitor. I like Melhay's point are they helpful or enemies. I hope to see the mechoservitors play a big role in the next book. They have the ability to lie, to have scripts that cause destruction. What was their real purpose when they were created and now?

pen21

 

 


Nadine wrote:

 I'm still up in the air on the metal men. I still think they are key in all of this and they (or one of them) may be the master controller. I think they are generally capable of emotions. Isaak sure was and Charles (metal) was also.


Melhay wrote:

I have many questions as to the Metal Man Charles.  I think there is much in mystery here with these metal men and the waste lands.  I think I like Nadine are starting to wonder on these metal men being more than just what everyone thinks they are.

 

These metal men are starting to really make me wonder.  They could really be a great help but at the same time they can be a great enemy, being that the scripts can easily be tampered with.



 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Expanding on this blood theory and the vial. What was in the vial before Ria added Petronus's blood?

The Li Tam blood got a lot of paragraphs in this book. Is it a mix of different families blood, Li Tam blood with Petronus, Wizard blood with Petronus? I don't remember any reference to specifics on the contents.

Any ideas? pen21

 

Melhay wrote:

Pg 361 – Per this page the Li Tam blood was helped in saving Jakob.  How is this possible?  Did they have to do experiments with it to see if they could find the right mixture to create the magick they needed?  It was not Li Tams blood put in that container Ria swished around, it was Petronus’s.  Was the Li Tam blood used to make the concoction that was already in the container?

Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

That line in the book really caught my attention. Why would the mother keep her pregnancy secret?

My thought at the time was, were they planning all along to have the first born taken from them to fulfill the role designed for Ria.There is so much manipulation of events and peoples lives in these books, especially by Li Tam. pen21

 

Melhay wrote:

Pg 363 –

Why was her birth kept a secret even when her mother was pregnant?  Did they dream of her being the one to destroy what they have or bringing back the Y’Zir ways?

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

I had assumed it was Li Tam blood but now I'm not so sure. But Petronous' blood was definitely the catalist that was need. But I'm also still wondering how Jakob became so sickly to begin with. I'm still wondering about the River Woman (you can't trust anyone these days). She had the opportunity to make him sick to begin with and she definitely had the opportunity to keep him that way. Maybe the cure was not such a big deal after all. Maybe it was just a simple antidote that was in the vial to begin with and was intended to gain control by way of an owed favor from Jin Li Tam and make everyone think it was big magic.
I also wonder why they needed so much Li Tam blood. Torturing and killing members of the Li Tam family could have been just revenge but then they saved all that blood and even had "pipelines" for the job!

pen21 wrote:

Expanding on this blood theory and the vial. What was in the vial before Ria added Petronus's blood?

The Li Tam blood got a lot of paragraphs in this book. Is it a mix of different families blood, Li Tam blood with Petronus, Wizard blood with Petronus? I don't remember any reference to specifics on the contents.

Any ideas? pen21

 

Melhay wrote:

Pg 361 – Per this page the Li Tam blood was helped in saving Jakob.  How is this possible?  Did they have to do experiments with it to see if they could find the right mixture to create the magick they needed?  It was not Li Tams blood put in that container Ria swished around, it was Petronus’s.  Was the Li Tam blood used to make the concoction that was already in the container?


 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


pen21 wrote:

That line in the book really caught my attention. Why would the mother keep her pregnancy secret?

My thought at the time was, were they planning all along to have the first born taken from them to fulfill the role designed for Ria.There is so much manipulation of events and peoples lives in these books, especially by Li Tam. pen21

 

Melhay wrote:

Pg 363 –

Why was her birth kept a secret even when her mother was pregnant?  Did they dream of her being the one to destroy what they have or bringing back the Y’Zir ways?


 

 

There are a lot of questions here. First, why did they kill Hanric to begin with? He was one of them. And they certainly knew he was a fake and that Winters the Younger was the present queen.

 

As far as Marshers in general, it seemed all they had to do to be spared was "convert" to the Y'Zir "religion" or whatever it is. If they didn't they were treated harshly. This situation was not forced on other populations.

 

Winters-the-Younger, however, is left alone. She just becomes a queen without a country. Ria is pretty ruthless so I don't think it is sisterly love.

 

Now Ria's birth was kept a secret but maybe that was to fulfill some sort of prophesy or even inspite of a prophesy. Mythic stories are full of prophecies where a child is born and destined to cause harm so it is supposedly killed but some good-hearted soul saves the child and the child grows up and the inevitable prophesy is brought about mainly because the actions taken to prevent it. Take a look Oedipus as an example. Or maybe the secret was necessary so Ria could undergo some special training necessary to he destiny. Or maybe it was a "Li Tam" type of manipulation.

 

I have a lot of curious questions about Ria and the Machvolks. There seems to be a lot of inconsistancies in their behavior that seems to run counter to what on the surface seems to be merely revenge.

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

The Origin of Jin's Name

 

We have already mentioned this but when I wnt back to read to read the passage, this prompted a memory and may be a clue. I have a feeling Jin is not a Li Tam or this connection may be a clue to the origin and the purpose of the Li Tam family.

 

Page 356

Vlad is talking to his daughter Jin:

 

"Do you remember where you go your name? . . . From D'Jin of the Younger Gods, swimming in the deepest darks of the haunted oceans."

 

Page 23 of The Weeping Czar

 

I am quoting a line a bit earlier because it might be a key to the large volumes of Li Tam blood as well.

 

Amal is telling Frederico how she is going to come to him:

 

"There's a pool in a cave deep beneath my father's tower.... It is where he goes to draw up his magicks from the blood of your world. ..It's connected somehow."

 

Bold is mine. But there may be still something or someone on the Moon. But where ever the location of this "wizard" (and it may not be Ria), he or she needs a supply of blood and curiously Li Tam blood. Let me continue now:

 

"The Beneath Places," he said. The so-called hell of the Younger Gods, where they plundered devils of their souls and slept restless in their sins. Or bargained for power. Stories, like the ghosts in the water, to keep children obedient.

=====================

 

Now it seems the base camp for all this blood collecting was somewhere around The Ghosting Crests.

 

I have no theories right now beyond my noticing that there is some relevance here. But we may be able to piece it together with more information as we go along. The Younger Gods have been mentioned several times in the two books but I don't remember all the references now, But they may have been a group of people who lived on the earth or used to live on the moon.

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

[ Edited ]

Which House is each group of people affiliated with?

 

We have been concentrating mainly on P'Andro Whym and Xhum Y'Zir and his seven sons, but there is another major player in this history and that is T'Erys Whym.

 

Now the way I have things lined up:

 

Xhum Y'Zir's People: The Marshers (Machvolks) and the Gypsies. YZir himself seems like "bad" guy right now since it was his magic that caused all the destruction and Ria and her group follow his blood magic. But, just to muddy things up, back in Lamentation (page 201) when Neb is first summoned by the Marsh King the messager says "My King is the Reluctant Prophet of Xhum Y'Zir, the Unloved Son of P'Andro Whym, Most Beautiful of the Norther Marshes." Now that opens up all sorts of interesting things. Is P'Andro Whym the father of Xhum Y'Zir? Hummmm.

 

P'Andro Whym: the Francines are in this camp. P'Andro Whym seems like a "good" guy. A philospher-scholar who was only trying to preserve knowledge and had a lot of niffty sayings in his gospels.

 

T'Erys Whym seems to have more evil ways so right now I would categorize him as a "bad" guy. His gospels are referred to as the "Errant Gospels." Now I will have to do some research here but it seems there is some association with him by the Entrolusions (remember good old Sethbert). And what about this Democratic movement?

 

Now that leaves us with Turam, Pylos and the House of Li Tam. We haven't heard much from Turam and Pylos yet but I think we will.

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Melhay wrote:

How is all this known so long ago?  Did they have a dreamer like Winters to inform on the future?  Even with Nebs mother and father knowing before he was even conceived?  How do they know such detail of the future?  What if there would have been a girl born instead of a boy in a family or vise versa? (after reading pg 358)

_________________________________________

Nadine wrote:

"Libraries" seem to be important to this series. We have the Windwir Library (destroyed), the Sanctorum Lux (destroyed and which now only exists a mechoservitor scrolls), Rudulfo's library, the Li Tam library (which Vlad destroyed), and the Marsher's Dream Books. Everything seems to be predestined and foretold somehow. A library or book may hold the key.

====================================
With all the libraries here is there a symbolizm here?  How we maybe destroying our knowledge, or shoud be?  All these libraries of great information destroyed. Is someone trying to stop knowledge?  All except Winters library, which has lead us to believe it is of just Dreams. 

All these dreams are possibly future visions, right?  Could this be where Vlads dad and years back got their knowledge of all the people?  Could he or a further back relative found and snuck in here?  Vlad had children everywhere doing all sorts of things in places to get information and move the "pieces" into place, it looks as though Vlads father did the same thing.  So he could have had a child in with the Marshers and knew these secrets, right?

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Melhay wrote:

After reading page 361 – How could Vlads father create Vlad as he is and Petronus to just destroy for Y’Zirite?  Could Vlad’s father have been forced to create Y’Zirite due to the prime mover?  BUT, then created Vlad and family and Petronus and Rudolfo and Jin to fight against the Crimson Empress?  Vlad’s dad created the tools to destroy the Crimson Empress?

-------------------------------------------------------

Nadine wrote:

I'm not sure what side Vlad's dad was on. Don't forget that final volume that betrayed Vald and his family. That was all planned by Vlad's dad as well.

==========================

I am still thinking that Vlad's father, being a decendent of Frederico's would not have played so easily into Y'Zirs hands.  I think there is a good idea here that he HAD to create what he did or set into motion what he did for the Crimson Empress.  BUT I think he then created Vlad, Petronus, and through them created others (Jin, Rudolfo, and the list can go on) to have the tools to destroy the Crimson Empress.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Nadine wrote:

 

The Preludes and Postludes are very tightly written and packed with information. They do seem to bookend each other. Remember in Lamentation the bird was relevent to both the Prelude and the Postlude. Maybe it is metal man Charles who is the Watcher. But whatever, they bookend each other here too with a mechoservitor instrumental in each. In fact we hae a mechanical creatures central in both books. This might lend weight to the theory that there is a machine behind all of this.

_______________________________________

 

Nadine I think this is VERY IMPORTANT.  You are soo on to a good track here.  This sounds as though we should carry this over.  I like the catch on the bookends.  Great Catch!!

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End


Nadine wrote:

 


pen21 wrote:

Ok I haven't had time to read everything, but just a couple things. Sorry if they are duplicate.

 

I loved the last 2 pages. We were right on. The mechoservitor,  just who is he communicating with?

I am guessing with a Blood Wizard on the Moon or a master mechoservitor on the moon.

 

Neb, I wonder now who he is dreaming about. Is it Winters or Winters the oldest sister?

Since they look so much alike, it is a possibility. Wouldn't that be a twist?

pen21


 

Wow, Pen! What a brilliant theory! That would be a twist. What an idea!

 


 

I agree Pen, I never even thought of this idea.  Great catch!

 

I think that it may still be our Winters he is dreaming of partly because on pg 373 where he has this dream Winters whispers inhis hear "This is our home,".  Our Winters still believes this will happen where Ria does not believe in their home, that they need to take the land that they were chased out of back for themselves.  This land she is taking by blood shed is what she feels is their home.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End


Nadine wrote:

 


pen21 wrote:

That line in the book really caught my attention. Why would the mother keep her pregnancy secret?

My thought at the time was, were they planning all along to have the first born taken from them to fulfill the role designed for Ria.There is so much manipulation of events and peoples lives in these books, especially by Li Tam. pen21

 

Melhay wrote:

Pg 363 –

Why was her birth kept a secret even when her mother was pregnant?  Did they dream of her being the one to destroy what they have or bringing back the Y’Zir ways?


 

 

There are a lot of questions here. First, why did they kill Hanric to begin with? He was one of them. And they certainly knew he was a fake and that Winters the Younger was the present queen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Melissa: I was thinking on this I think Hanric had to be killed due to people saw him as the King.  Even though the Marshers knew Winters was the Queen she had not yet taken the journey to proclaim herself and Hanric had.  Winters had to be forced to take this proclamation so it could be made void.  Now with Winters as Queen and no one of power to stand in her way Ria was able to claim she is the older sister and make the climb to proclaim herself as the rightful Queen.  That is why I think Hanric had to be killed by the Machtvolk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

As far as Marshers in general, it seemed all they had to do to be spared was "convert" to the Y'Zir "religion" or whatever it is. If they didn't they were treated harshly. This situation was not forced on other populations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Melissa:  I had noticed this myself.  It seems the Machtvolk just want the center land that was originally deeded to them.  They are willing to let the others be "neighbors" per say on the outskirts of their land.  It seems they just want what is "theirs" being the land and the marshers and maybe even the Gypsies.  But inorder to get the Marshers and Gypsies they would have to take the mark as the old ways were.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

Winters-the-Younger, however, is left alone. She just becomes a queen without a country. Ria is pretty ruthless so I don't think it is sisterly love.

 

Now Ria's birth was kept a secret but maybe that was to fulfill some sort of prophesy or even inspite of a prophesy. Mythic stories are full of prophecies where a child is born and destined to cause harm so it is supposedly killed but some good-hearted soul saves the child and the child grows up and the inevitable prophesy is brought about mainly because the actions taken to prevent it. Take a look Oedipus as an example. Or maybe the secret was necessary so Ria could undergo some special training necessary to he destiny. Or maybe it was a "Li Tam" type of manipulation.

 

I have a lot of curious questions about Ria and the Machvolks. There seems to be a lot of inconsistancies in their behavior that seems to run counter to what on the surface seems to be merely revenge.


 

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End


Nadine wrote:

The Origin of Jin's Name

 

We have already mentioned this but when I wnt back to read to read the passage, this prompted a memory and may be a clue. I have a feeling Jin is not a Li Tam or this connection may be a clue to the origin and the purpose of the Li Tam family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Melissa:  What if Jin's name is a reference to her mother?  We never met her mother.  Or maybe this is a reference to Amal herself.  I know Amal did not make it over in body, but her spirit did.  Could there be something in regards to Amals Spirit?  That could relate to the Great Mother references to her by the Machtvolk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

Nadine wrote:

Page 356

Vlad is talking to his daughter Jin:

 

"Do you remember where you go your name? . . . From D'Jin of the Younger Gods, swimming in the deepest darks of the haunted oceans."

 

Page 23 of The Weeping Czar

 

I am quoting a line a bit earlier because it might be a key to the large volumes of Li Tam blood as well.

 

Amal is telling Frederico how she is going to come to him:

 

"There's a pool in a cave deep beneath my father's tower.... It is where he goes to draw up his magicks from the blood of your world. ..It's connected somehow."

 

Bold is mine. But there may be still something or someone on the Moon. But where ever the location of this "wizard" (and it may not be Ria), he or she needs a supply of blood and curiously Li Tam blood. Let me continue now:

 

"The Beneath Places," he said. The so-called hell of the Younger Gods, where they plundered devils of their souls and slept restless in their sins. Or bargained for power. Stories, like the ghosts in the water, to keep children obedient.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Melissa wrote:

Okay, I have found Rudolfo's thoughts on the song from his mother singing it to him.

page 376:

   How long since she sang this to me? He could not remember, and he felt a tug of loss when he sought her face in his memory and could not find it. But he remembered these lyrics. They spoke of love requited, though with sacrifices made, of bargaining pools in the basement of the world and ghosts that swam a haunted sea. It was a song about tears and separation, desperate hope and misguided faith. It was a song about the love between a Weeping Czar and a Moon Wizard's daughter.

 

 Now also since the bargaining pools are mentioned in this paragraph in reference to the song, I wanted to add the thoughts Rudolfo had on the bargaining pools a little earlier in the book.

page 320:

   ...This structure was made for bloodletting, from its viewing balcony to the cutting floor, through the system of pipes down into the distillery he knew must be buried in the deeper basements.

   Rudolfo had certainly read the stories as a child. He was familiar with the bargaining pools and their access to the dark spirits of the Beneath Places, where blood and anguish could purchase favors and power. His own Tormentor's Row, now closed these eight months, followed a similar design to those Blood Temples of old but only retained the notion of redemptive cutting, having no use for the blood that was spilled in the pursuit of that atonement.

 

 Now, I just had a crazy thought in typing this on the bargaining pools.  I was asking why Li Tam's family blood was so important.  It seems that anyone’s blood could be used for blood letting.  BUT, since we know who they are descendants of ~ could it be that one of the dark spirits in the Beneath Places is Y'Zir?  Could he be asking for the blood of the Frederico family?  Could Ria be doing this in exchange for what ever it is she wants or needs?  In the above section it mentions that "blood and anguish could purchase favors and power".  So does Ria want something?  Could this be why Machtvolk can use the blood magicks and are so powerful?

Melissa: There seems to be a lot showing up on the barganing pool, if we look for it.  I added a bunch of stuff here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=====================

 Nadine wrote:

Now it seems the base camp for all this blood collecting was somewhere around The Ghosting Crests.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Melissa Wrote: 

Ghosting Crest:

This name just reminds me of possible spirits, with Ghost and for some reason Crest stricks me as well.  Could this be the sea Frederico saw Amals spirit in?  Or could this be where spirits have gone from trying to cross here?

Melissa: I have thoughts from my other posts I am going to try to slip in here on your thoughts. I think this may fit here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nadine wrote:

I have no theories right now beyond my noticing that there is some relevance here. But we may be able to piece it together with more information as we go along. The Younger Gods have been mentioned several times in the two books but I don't remember all the references now, But they may have been a group of people who lived on the earth or used to live on the moon.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Melissa wrote:

Page 268 - There is a reference to one of the Younger Gods being woken up by Y’Zirs spells.  Could this come to be important in the future books?  Where is this awake Younger God?  Can this Younger God help the people of Y'Zir or the people of the earth?

Pg 371 -  On this page there is mention of a war of the Younger Gods.  What war of the Younger Gods?  I don't remember much to this from prior books or stories.  Does anyone else remember this being mentioned before?

Melissa: Just a few things on the Younger Gods I don't want to forget about here.

 

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


Melhay wrote:

Nadine wrote:

The Origin of Jin's Name

 

We have already mentioned this but when I wnt back to read to read the passage, this prompted a memory and may be a clue. I have a feeling Jin is not a Li Tam or this connection may be a clue to the origin and the purpose of the Li Tam family.

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Melissa:  What if Jin's name is a reference to her mother?  We never met her mother.  Or maybe this is a reference to Amal herself.  I know Amal did not make it over in body, but her spirit did.  Could there be something in regards to Amals Spirit?  That could relate to the Great Mother references to her by the Machtvolk.

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pen21 added:

Jin's Mother good catch. Never thought of that. What a twist if she is a Machtvolk. Depending on how old Jakob is in the Antiphon book we might get more information on his heritage. Jakob's birth seems to be the catalyst that brought Ria and the Y'zirs out of hiding.

Nadine wrote:

Page 356

Vlad is talking to his daughter Jin:

"Do you remember where you go your name? . . . From D'Jin of the Younger Gods, swimming in the deepest darks of the haunted oceans."

Page 23 of The Weeping Czar

I am quoting a line a bit earlier because it might be a key to the large volumes of Li Tam blood as well.

Amal is telling Frederico how she is going to come to him

"There's a pool in a cave deep beneath my father's tower.... It is where he goes to draw up his magicks from the blood of your world. ..It's connected somehow."

Bold is mine. But there may be still something or someone on the Moon. But where ever the location of this "wizard" (and it may not be Ria), he or she needs a supply of blood and curiously Li Tam blood. Let me continue now:

"The Beneath Places," he said. The so-called hell of the Younger Gods, where they plundered devils of their souls and slept restless in their sins. Or bargained for power. Stories, like the ghosts in the water, to keep children obedient.

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Melissa wrote:

Okay, I have found Rudolfo's thoughts on the song from his mother singing it to him.

page 376:

   How long since she sang this to me? He could not remember, and he felt a tug of loss when he sought her face in his memory and could not find it. But he remembered these lyrics. They spoke of love requited, though with sacrifices made, of bargaining pools in the basement of the world and ghosts that swam a haunted sea. It was a song about tears and separation, desperate hope and misguided faith. It was a song about the love between a Weeping Czar and a Moon Wizard's daughter.

 

 Now also since the bargaining pools are mentioned in this paragraph in reference to the song, I wanted to add the thoughts Rudolfo had on the bargaining pools a little earlier in the book.

page 320:

   ...This structure was made for bloodletting, from its viewing balcony to the cutting floor, through the system of pipes down into the distillery he knew must be buried in the deeper basements.

   Rudolfo had certainly read the stories as a child. He was familiar with the bargaining pools and their access to the dark spirits of the Beneath Places, where blood and anguish could purchase favors and power. His own Tormentor's Row, now closed these eight months, followed a similar design to those Blood Temples of old but only retained the notion of redemptive cutting, having no use for the blood that was spilled in the pursuit of that atonement.

 

 Now, I just had a crazy thought in typing this on the bargaining pools.  I was asking why Li Tam's family blood was so important.  It seems that anyone’s blood could be used for blood letting.  BUT, since we know who they are descendants of ~ could it be that one of the dark spirits in the Beneath Places is Y'Zir?  Could he be asking for the blood of the Frederico family?  Could Ria be doing this in exchange for what ever it is she wants or needs?  In the above section it mentions that "blood and anguish could purchase favors and power".  So does Ria want something?  Could this be why Machtvolk can use the blood magicks and are so powerful?

Melissa: There seems to be a lot showing up on the barganing pool, if we look for it.  I added a bunch of stuff here.

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pen21 added:

The bargaining pools, the blood and Rudolpho's family using the torture methods. Is Rudolpho's family lines closely related to Ria. As mentioned here Rudolpho had stopped the torture for 8 months(they had not been using the blood). What alliances did the original Rudolpho have?

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 Nadine wrote:

Now it seems the base camp for all this blood collecting was somewhere around The Ghosting Crests.

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Melissa Wrote: 

Ghosting Crest:

This name just reminds me of possible spirits, with Ghost and for some reason Crest stricks me as well.  Could this be the sea Frederico saw Amals spirit in?  Or could this be where spirits have gone from trying to cross here?

Melissa: I have thoughts from my other posts I am going to try to slip in here on your thoughts. I think this may fit here.

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pen21added:

I think you are both right on about the Ghosting Crest, Frederico, the sea. All good points to keep in mind for Anitphon.

Nadine wrote:

I have no theories right now beyond my noticing that there is some relevance here. But we may be able to piece it together with more information as we go along. The Younger Gods have been mentioned several times in the two books but I don't remember all the references now, But they may have been a group of people who lived on the earth or used to live on the moon.

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Melissa wrote:

Page 268 - There is a reference to one of the Younger Gods being woken up by Y’Zirs spells.  Could this come to be important in the future books?  Where is this awake Younger God?  Can this Younger God help the people of Y'Zir or the people of the earth?

Pg 371 -  On this page there is mention of a war of the Younger Gods.  What war of the Younger Gods?  I don't remember much to this from prior books or stories.  Does anyone else remember this being mentioned before?

Melissa: Just a few things on the Younger Gods I don't want to forget about here.
pen21 added:
The Younger Gods and where they fit still puzzle me. It is mentioned just here and there in the books so far. Jin Li Tam's name is from From D'Jin of the Younger Gods. This has gotta mean something about why she is the Great Mother. Maybe this is another piece to keep in mind for who Jin's mother could be - a Younger God or Machtvolk or ???

 


 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

The preludes and postludes are great ideas. I need to go back and read them again.

The mechoservitors are the key in my mind to be the watcher.

But I think there is a mechoservitor we haven't met.

There was a post on the numbers(read too many posts lately) of each mechoservitor.

With Isaac #3, Charles#2, who is #1. I liked maybe the #1 for the watcher.

 


Melhay wrote:

Nadine wrote:

 

The Preludes and Postludes are very tightly written and packed with information. They do seem to bookend each other. Remember in Lamentation the bird was relevent to both the Prelude and the Postlude. Maybe it is metal man Charles who is the Watcher. But whatever, they bookend each other here too with a mechoservitor instrumental in each. In fact we hae a mechanical creatures central in both books. This might lend weight to the theory that there is a machine behind all of this.

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Nadine I think this is VERY IMPORTANT.  You are soo on to a good track here.  This sounds as though we should carry this over.  I like the catch on the bookends.  Great Catch!!


 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Melhay wrote:

How is all this known so long ago?  Did they have a dreamer like Winters to inform on the future?  Even with Nebs mother and father knowing before he was even conceived?  How do they know such detail of the future? 

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This is an interesting idea, Melissa. Seems like everything is perfectly predictable like someone does know what will happen in the future for certain -- or somehow can make sure (even against incredible odds) that it will come about exactly as planned. One small piece or descision out of place among all these players and the future will change.That is one of the reasons I thought a machine might be the master controller -- something or someone capable of figuring through all the mathematical probabilities all the possible moves and all the possible outcomes -- the master player of the Queens (Chess) Game. This all only seems possible when the Player has control of all the pieces and the pieces in this game are very complex humans with free choice.

 

So I think you have an excellent point here. The dreams have to be important. And maybe they are tied in with the prophecies and don't forget, we don't really know those yet. But prophecies must be a part of all this and they generally do come true no matter what those free-will humans try to do. The only thing we know about the future direction is that they are preparing the way for the Crimson Queen.

 

Any ideas on who the Crimson Queen might be or at least where she might be coming from?