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Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Some characters that were pretty minor in Lamentation are gaining significance in Canticle and I think are going to play significant roles in the next books. There is an interesting minor scene in Lamentation in which the leaders of the vaious group have a meeting. Each goes to the meeting dressed in their house colors. At the time I just wanted to read some possibly significant (or possible irrelevant things into the thread record and I'm going to quote it again here, mainly because I think Queen Meirov is a going to be a major player in the next books, possible very major -- and we are looking for a Crimson Queen. Here is what I posted:

==========================================

 

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

 

Following the Bird and Some Seemingly Minor Characters

The Golden Bird opens this book in the Prelude and looks innocent enough. But there is a lot here. I didn't note its travel and references to it during my first read and it is on my list of things to pick up on this second time through. But I think, considering all we know now, that bird had a purpose.

My first note now is that he was there deliberate at the time of the destruction sent by someone. My assumption was Vlad Li Tam but maybe so and maybe not. Whoever sent him had inside knowledge that the city was going to be destroyed and at that time. My obvious assumption is that he was a spy to observe and bring back news of the event. But another thought occurred to me. Did he have something to do with triggering Isaak and the actual destruction of Windwir? I already have a suspicion that it was not Sethbert's doing nor was it within the capabilities of the apprentice. After the destruction he heads SW, supposedly directly to Vlad Li Tam. Or does he? Now that I have a map I noticed that he also has to cross the kingdoms of Pylos and Turam. We meet the monarchs of these kingdoms on Page 222. I don't think Ken introduces characters just to fill up the pages. Each named character probably has a major role or is significant in some way in the future books in the series.

1)There is the Queen of Pylos. I just want to read a brief sentence into the record right now and so you fertile minds can think on it. I don't think we have enough information at this time to develop any ideas on her except to note her here.

"She wore a gold breastplate and greaves, but her arms were draped in red silk that matched her battle-skirt."

Now let me jump to the Postlude, again just to read something into the record. I happen to think right now this is just a coincidence.

"The bird enters a small window. It lands upon a scarlet sleeve and when it opens its beak, a metallic whisper leaks out."


2) Now the other character introduced here is Ansylus, the Crown Prince of Turam who happens to be related to Sethbert by marriage. And he is sitting next to General Lysias.


3) Well you possibly remember General Lysias but probably not. He is an Entrolusian general. He plays a somewhat pivotal role on pages 305-307. He is the one who tries to arrest Sethbert (and not too politely) It is also at that time that we discover that there is an important incriminating and key document in Sethbert safe that is found to be missing. We don't know who took it, we never find out what it said except that it might be a critical piece in this puzzle. I have not been following General Lysias in my first time through but I'm trying to track him a bit now. I don't think we have seen the last of General Lysias.

Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

You keep good notes. Queen Meirov and the crimson color, it does make one think.

I am still wondering if the Crimson Queen will be a new character.

 

I like the last question on Lysias. I have wondered about him. He keeps cropping up.

Right at the end of the Canticle, Lysias is back with visiting Lynnae his daughter. Lynnae plays a significant role in Jakob's  early days. I am sure both of them will be back.

 

 


Nadine wrote:

Some characters that were pretty minor in Lamentation are gaining significance in Canticle and I think are going to play significant roles in the next books. There is an interesting minor scene in Lamentation in which the leaders of the vaious group have a meeting. Each goes to the meeting dressed in their house colors. At the time I just wanted to read some possibly significant (or possible irrelevant things into the thread record and I'm going to quote it again here, mainly because I think Queen Meirov is a going to be a major player in the next books, possible very major -- and we are looking for a Crimson Queen. Here is what I posted:

==========================================

 

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

 

Following the Bird and Some Seemingly Minor Characters

The Golden Bird opens this book in the Prelude and looks innocent enough. But there is a lot here. I didn't note its travel and references to it during my first read and it is on my list of things to pick up on this second time through. But I think, considering all we know now, that bird had a purpose.

My first note now is that he was there deliberate at the time of the destruction sent by someone. My assumption was Vlad Li Tam but maybe so and maybe not. Whoever sent him had inside knowledge that the city was going to be destroyed and at that time. My obvious assumption is that he was a spy to observe and bring back news of the event. But another thought occurred to me. Did he have something to do with triggering Isaak and the actual destruction of Windwir? I already have a suspicion that it was not Sethbert's doing nor was it within the capabilities of the apprentice. After the destruction he heads SW, supposedly directly to Vlad Li Tam. Or does he? Now that I have a map I noticed that he also has to cross the kingdoms of Pylos and Turam. We meet the monarchs of these kingdoms on Page 222. I don't think Ken introduces characters just to fill up the pages. Each named character probably has a major role or is significant in some way in the future books in the series.

1)There is the Queen of Pylos. I just want to read a brief sentence into the record right now and so you fertile minds can think on it. I don't think we have enough information at this time to develop any ideas on her except to note her here.

"She wore a gold breastplate and greaves, but her arms were draped in red silk that matched her battle-skirt."

Now let me jump to the Postlude, again just to read something into the record. I happen to think right now this is just a coincidence.

"The bird enters a small window. It lands upon a scarlet sleeve and when it opens its beak, a metallic whisper leaks out."


2) Now the other character introduced here is Ansylus, the Crown Prince of Turam who happens to be related to Sethbert by marriage. And he is sitting next to General Lysias.


3) Well you possibly remember General Lysias but probably not. He is an Entrolusian general. He plays a somewhat pivotal role on pages 305-307. He is the one who tries to arrest Sethbert (and not too politely) It is also at that time that we discover that there is an important incriminating and key document in Sethbert safe that is found to be missing. We don't know who took it, we never find out what it said except that it might be a critical piece in this puzzle. I have not been following General Lysias in my first time through but I'm trying to track him a bit now. I don't think we have seen the last of General Lysias.


 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

At the Firstborn Feast the Machvolk kill all the noble guests including Ansylus, the Crown Prince of Turam and Hanric the assummed Marsh King. Except they didn't kill Rudolfo.

 

At Petronus' trial we have Winters now queen of the Marshers, Queen Meirov of Pylos, Erlund of the Entrolusian States, Esarov of the opposition, and of course Petronus, Jin Li Tam and Rodolfo. None are killed except possibly and temporarily Petronus. If the massacre of the first part was to remove leaders, then I wonder why the Machvolks didnt take this opportunity to remove all the leaders.

 

Now I assumed that this was blood revenge on the last living person of P'Andro Whym's line Petronus (and they were eliminating all the remaining Androfrancines). But then they "revive" him and even let him go, banishing him to the Waste Lands. So Petronus heads to the Waste Lands at the end -- an area rich with all that remains of all the old powerful technology and I might add "magic", with plenty of Metal Men and Isaak waiting for him, with his loyal general Grymlis and what was left of the Grey Guard, AND Charles the most knowlegeable person in the old technology and able to modify mechoservitors. He apparently is spared to fulfill the prophecy. But Petronus is now the guy in charge and in control of all this powerful technology -- and they let it happen. Why? I still think there is a great deal more about Petronus that we don't know about and much of the information we have been left with in this book may be deceiving.

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paulgoatallen
Posts: 7,327
Registered: ‎08-16-2007
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


pen21 wrote:

 

But I think there is a mechoservitor we haven't met.

There was a post on the numbers(read too many posts lately) of each mechoservitor.

With Isaac #3, Charles#2, who is #1. I liked maybe the #1 for the watcher.

 

 


 

The possibilities here are truly endless – wasn't there hundreds of mechoservitors working in Windwir before the Fall?

 

 

Paul

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
Moderator
paulgoatallen
Posts: 7,327
Registered: ‎08-16-2007

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

Paul

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
Distinguished Bibliophile
pen21
Posts: 3,653
Registered: ‎03-23-2009

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

Yes I think there were a lot of mechoservitors. But Isaac and Charles stood out in the books with a more independent streak, like Isaac lying. In my mind the others are more like worker bees, being directed by the mechoservitors over them. I still like a master mechoservitor as the Watcher. Just my way of thinking.

I am curious to see what others think.

 

Here is a weird thought. What if the Crimson Queen is a female mechoservitor?

Hmmm.....

pen21

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

pen21 wrote:

 

But I think there is a mechoservitor we haven't met.

There was a post on the numbers(read too many posts lately) of each mechoservitor.

With Isaac #3, Charles#2, who is #1. I liked maybe the #1 for the watcher.


The possibilities here are truly endless – wasn't there hundreds of mechoservitors working in Windwir before the Fall?

 Paul


 

 

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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

[ Edited ]

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

Paul


 

 

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

I will post a bit on why I think it might be Jin a bit later. Are any of the rest of you up to a wild guess and why?

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

Here is a weird thought. What if the Crimson Queen is a female mechoservitor?

Hmmm.....

pen21

=============================================

 

Pen, you always come up with the most original suggestions!

Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

[ Edited ]

I will have to go back and find out where Ezra, the Marsh Prophet, first talked to Winters. I think he provides some interesting clues that should be taken into the mix.

 

On page 256 he is talking to Jin and tells her:

"I am Ezra. I am herald to the soon-coming Macht Queen and prophet of the Crimson Empress."

 

So I think that rules out Ria as being the Crimson Empress.

 

On page 257 he continues his talk with Jin and provides another interesting little tidbit of information:

 

"We intend to honor our kin-clave with the Gypsy King. Our houses have much work to do, together, in shaping the Named Lands for the new Age that dawns upon us. . . . . You [Jin] are part of this great making. As is your husband. And Jakob -- he is most highly favored among men."

 

On page 308 Jim and Winters are talking to a Captain who has encountered Ezra, I assume.

 

The Captain says: "There is an old man who fancies himself a prophet. He is preaching a new gospel openly now, and people are listening.... He points to scriptures that predicted the fall of Windwir -- to the very day -- and claims it heralds the extablishment of an empress."

 

The Captain then quotes Ezra:

 

"And it shall come to pass at the end of days that a wind of blood shall rise for cleansing and cold iron blades shall rise for prunning. . . ."

 

As his words trailed off, Winters was surprised by the voice that picked up the recitation. "'Thus shall the sins of P'Andro Whym be visited upon his children,'" Jin Li Tam said quietly.

 

Yes. She [Winters] met Jin's eyes and saw something there that disturbed her. Swallowing, she took a breath and finished the recitation. "'Thus shall the throne of the Crimson Empress be established."

 

This segment makes me think Jin might be the Crimson Empress but she doesn't know it yet. But, knowing the way things happen in this world and how people are groomed for certain ends, I am wondering if Jin has been bred and trained to become the Crimson Empress. :smileywink: She also has red hair.

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End


Nadine wrote:

At the Firstborn Feast the Machvolk kill all the noble guests including Ansylus, the Crown Prince of Turam and Hanric the assummed Marsh King. Except they didn't kill Rudolfo.

 

At Petronus' trial we have Winters now queen of the Marshers, Queen Meirov of Pylos, Erlund of the Entrolusian States, Esarov of the opposition, and of course Petronus, Jin Li Tam and Rodolfo. None are killed except possibly and temporarily Petronus. If the massacre of the first part was to remove leaders, then I wonder why the Machvolks didnt take this opportunity to remove all the leaders.

 

Now I assumed that this was blood revenge on the last living person of P'Andro Whym's line Petronus (and they were eliminating all the remaining Androfrancines). But then they "revive" him and even let him go, banishing him to the Waste Lands. So Petronus heads to the Waste Lands at the end -- an area rich with all that remains of all the old powerful technology and I might add "magic", with plenty of Metal Men and Isaak waiting for him, with his loyal general Grymlis and what was left of the Grey Guard, AND Charles the most knowlegeable person in the old technology and able to modify mechoservitors. He apparently is spared to fulfill the prophecy. But Petronus is now the guy in charge and in control of all this powerful technology -- and they let it happen. Why? I still think there is a great deal more about Petronus that we don't know about and much of the information we have been left with in this book may be deceiving.


 

Remember Vlads father is the one who carved Petronus into the man he is, along with Vlad too.  This is where I start to wonder why Grandpap Li Tam created Petronus and Vlad to be the people they are when he was to be working with this "Master Controller".  I am starting to think Grandpap Li Tam was up to something else.  I think he created the tools per say to save the earth.   I think we want Petronus and Neb over in the Waste Lands to find what is needed to help them.  I think this is part of the plan to save "us" and the earth from whom ever.

 

I was thinking on why Queen Meirov and Erlund are still alive.  Remember we where talking about the hint that Erlunds men got which saved his life, and Queen Meirov...  I don't think there was an attempt on her life, it was on her son - which they successfully killed.  Then at this meeting they did not kill the leaders (as I thought that was the intention of coming to it.).  I think this was a tactic to show the people and other leaders that Ria could do what ever she wanted to and that they couldn't stop her.  To show how powerful the Machtvolk really are.

 

But along with all this information... I do have to agree there must be a need for the people that are alive due to being spared by a warning or not attempted.  These people will of course have a purpose for the future, otherwise they would have been eliminated as spares.  These people hold a piece to the past or the present that will be needed in the future.  I am curious to see what this could be.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

What if all the mechoservitors are acting as if they are worker bees... just to get the information we are willing to say around them because they will not share this secret information because they are to follow as told and not lie?  What if all Mechoservitors are working for the master controller and relaying all the "secret" information they find out back to the master controller?

 

That is a thought...  As we see in the end of this book the mechoservitor is collecting data, possibly from birds (ravens), then sending it out to the master controller.  Are all the mechoservitors Watchers (as the one in the Postlude)?


pen21 wrote:

 

Yes I think there were a lot of mechoservitors. But Isaac and Charles stood out in the books with a more independent streak, like Isaac lying. In my mind the others are more like worker bees, being directed by the mechoservitors over them. I still like a master mechoservitor as the Watcher. Just my way of thinking.

I am curious to see what others think.

 

Here is a weird thought. What if the Crimson Queen is a female mechoservitor?

Hmmm.....

pen21

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

pen21 wrote:

 

But I think there is a mechoservitor we haven't met.

There was a post on the numbers(read too many posts lately) of each mechoservitor.

With Isaac #3, Charles#2, who is #1. I liked maybe the #1 for the watcher.


The possibilities here are truly endless – wasn't there hundreds of mechoservitors working in Windwir before the Fall?

 Paul


 

 


 

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

You know this is a very interesting point. They do take direction from other (maybe more advanced) mechoservitors. Isaak was in charge of the library project and organized the whole thing and told the other mechoservitors what to do.
Another interesting thing is that they keep claiming that their scrips have been modified (but we know they do lie). Maybe they haven't and these mechoservitors have their own agenda. And there might be a way they can communicate with each other even when they are far away. They are after all machines and could have some sort of transmitter.
The biggest clue might be in the title of the series. This is the Psalms of Isaak and each book is title with a particular type of song. Could Isaak be the Master Controller? He does have a mind of his own and emotions. He is very human and may just have human independence. No doubt he is going to be central to this whole series even though he has had a very minor part in Canticle.
Someone pointed out the fact that Isaak does not have a POV. Well right now that might give too much away. But there is a good chance he might just start having one at the end of Requiem.

Melhay wrote:

What if all the mechoservitors are acting as if they are worker bees... just to get the information we are willing to say around them because they will not share this secret information because they are to follow as told and not lie?  What if all Mechoservitors are working for the master controller and relaying all the "secret" information they find out back to the master controller?

 

That is a thought...  As we see in the end of this book the mechoservitor is collecting data, possibly from birds (ravens), then sending it out to the master controller.  Are all the mechoservitors Watchers (as the one in the Postlude)?


pen21 wrote:

 

Yes I think there were a lot of mechoservitors. But Isaac and Charles stood out in the books with a more independent streak, like Isaac lying. In my mind the others are more like worker bees, being directed by the mechoservitors over them. I still like a master mechoservitor as the Watcher. Just my way of thinking.

I am curious to see what others think.

 

Here is a weird thought. What if the Crimson Queen is a female mechoservitor?

Hmmm.....

pen21

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

pen21 wrote:

 

But I think there is a mechoservitor we haven't met.

There was a post on the numbers(read too many posts lately) of each mechoservitor.

With Isaac #3, Charles#2, who is #1. I liked maybe the #1 for the watcher.


The possibilities here are truly endless – wasn't there hundreds of mechoservitors working in Windwir before the Fall?

 Paul


 

 


 


 

 

Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End


Nadine wrote:

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

Paul


 

 

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

I will post a bit on why I think it might be Jin a bit later. Are any of the rest of you up to a wild guess and why?


 

Great guess Nadine!

 

I am going to take a stab at this as well...

 

I am going to use the Postlude in my explaining here.

 

   "Bear a message home," he told the kin-raven, and waited while the bird cocked its head and opened its beak to receive his words.

   "The Last Son is in exile -spared to fulfill the scriptures - and the kin-healing of Frederico's line is complete. The Child of Promise has his forty years, and the Great Mother has indebted herself to your grace.  The secret faith is now preached in the open, and the Machtvolk arise from their sorrow to take back their given home."

   The Watcher paused. "Time is of the essence," he finally said. "The Age of the Crimson Empress is at hand."

 

1.) This watcher is bearing a message home. ~ Where are all the other mechoservitors?  Could this be the home he is speaking of, where ever these other mechoservitors are?  This may mean they are all working together...

 

2.) The Age of the Crimson Empress is at hand. ~ I take this to mean she is already here, not that anyone new is coming to take control.  This would have to be some one of power to take the position of Empress.

 

3.) Jin already has a title, the Great Mother.  Now this could of course change if she were to take the lead and become an Empress.  And she has the Red hair to fit the color description.  BUT!!!  The rest of the sentence gives a clue.  Has indebted herself to your grace.  I think it is very possible that Ria is the Crimson Empress.

 

She is regarded as your grace, she is very very powerful.  Ria has proven herself to do as she wishes by spilling lots of blood.  Either by war to get to what she wants or by bloodletting.  I think part of the blood thing is she is sending the blood she got from the Li Tam family down into the Bargaining pools.  Crimson refering to the color of blood.

 

I think Ria is the Crimson Empress.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End


Nadine wrote:

I will have to go back and find out where Ezra, the Marsh Prophet, first talked to Winters. I think he provides some interesting clues that should be taken into the mix.

 

On page 256 he is talking to Jin and tells her:

==="I am Ezra. I am herald to the soon-coming Macht Queen and prophet of the Crimson Empress."

 

So I think that rules out Ria as being the Crimson Empress.

 

On page 257 he continues his talk with Jin and provides another interesting little tidbit of information:

 

"We intend to honor our kin-clave with the Gypsy King. Our houses have much work to do, together, in shaping the Named Lands for the new Age that dawns upon us. . . . . You [Jin] are part of this great making. As is your husband. And Jakob -- he is most highly favored among men."

 

On page 308 Jim and Winters are talking to a Captain who has encountered Ezra, I assume.

 

===The Captain says: "There is an old man who fancies himself a prophet. He is preaching a new gospel openly now, and people are listening.... He points to scriptures that predicted the fall of Windwir -- to the very day -- and claims it heralds the extablishment of an empress."

 

The Captain then quotes Ezra:

==== 

"And it shall come to pass at the end of days that a wind of blood shall rise for cleansing and cold iron blades shall rise for prunning. . . ."

 

As his words trailed off, Winters was surprised by the voice that picked up the recitation. "'Thus shall the sins of P'Andro Whym be visited upon his children,'" Jin Li Tam said quietly.

 

Yes. She [Winters] met Jin's eyes and saw something there that disturbed her. Swallowing, she took a breath and finished the recitation. "'Thus shall the throne of the Crimson Empress be established."

 

This segment makes me think Jin might be the Crimson Empress but she doesn't know it yet. But, knowing the way things happen in this world and how people are groomed for certain ends, I am wondering if Jin has been bred and trained to become the Crimson Empress. :smileywink: She also has red hair.


 

I love doing this!!!  You have made some great points here.  but I can see this relating to Ria as well.

 

===I was thinking Ezra referencing Harold and Prophet could be to the same person.  She is the soon coming Macht Queen but could be the Crimson Empress once she steps into that position and then takes over everyone else.

=== Ezra claims to be a prophet then mention that it harolds in the empress.  He says he harolds for Ria.  Could this work backwards?  He harold for Ria and the gospel harolds Empress, which he tells of the gospel so therefore harolds the Empress ~~ Empress could be Ria?

====Iron blades are what the Machtvolk used to kill and shed the crimson blood.  The throne of the Crimson Empress established.  By the bloodshed thus creating the Crimson Empress.  Then the word throne - I think may have to do with the throne that the Marsh King/Queen has to carry up the climb to proclaim them self.

 

I know I might really be stretching to get a relation here to Ria.  But, I at least gave it a try.  I could probably get this to fit to Meirov if I really needed to as well.  lol.

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Distinguished Bibliophile
Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

Good guess and well presented. My only reason for steering clear of Ria was that she might be too obvious. But the Crimson Queen might be ready to move to the center stage in the next book and Ria would be in the best position to serve in that role.
I guess my Jin guess is not right. Obvious the Great Mother and "your grace" are two different people. Good quote, Melissa:
The Child of Promise has his forty years, and the Great Mother has indebted herself to your grace.
This quote, though, may also discount Ria (unless the statement is just rhetorical) since she was the one who got the Great Mother to indebt herself to "your grace." This is quite a dilemma. Obviously "her grace" is being comunicated to here and, therefore, she already knows that she is the Crimson Queen. I think that would eliminate Winters. If my list is complete and the assumption is that we have already met the Crimson Queen then that leaves us with the River Woman or Lynnae.
At first I thought that maybe the Crimson Queen did not know her role yet. But obviously she does know. Maybe Pen's idea is closest to the mark -- it is a female mechoservitor!

Melhay wrote:

Nadine wrote:

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

Paul


 

 

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

I will post a bit on why I think it might be Jin a bit later. Are any of the rest of you up to a wild guess and why?


 

Great guess Nadine!

 

I am going to take a stab at this as well...

 

I am going to use the Postlude in my explaining here.

 

   "Bear a message home," he told the kin-raven, and waited while the bird cocked its head and opened its beak to receive his words.

   "The Last Son is in exile -spared to fulfill the scriptures - and the kin-healing of Frederico's line is complete. The Child of Promise has his forty years, and the Great Mother has indebted herself to your grace.  The secret faith is now preached in the open, and the Machtvolk arise from their sorrow to take back their given home."

   The Watcher paused. "Time is of the essence," he finally said. "The Age of the Crimson Empress is at hand."

 

1.) This watcher is bearing a message home. ~ Where are all the other mechoservitors?  Could this be the home he is speaking of, where ever these other mechoservitors are?  This may mean they are all working together...

 

2.) The Age of the Crimson Empress is at hand. ~ I take this to mean she is already here, not that anyone new is coming to take control.  This would have to be some one of power to take the position of Empress.

 

3.) Jin already has a title, the Great Mother.  Now this could of course change if she were to take the lead and become an Empress.  And she has the Red hair to fit the color description.  BUT!!!  The rest of the sentence gives a clue.  Has indebted herself to your grace.  I think it is very possible that Ria is the Crimson Empress.

 

She is regarded as your grace, she is very very powerful.  Ria has proven herself to do as she wishes by spilling lots of blood.  Either by war to get to what she wants or by bloodletting.  I think part of the blood thing is she is sending the blood she got from the Li Tam family down into the Bargaining pools.  Crimson refering to the color of blood.

 

I think Ria is the Crimson Empress.


 

 

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Nadine
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

"And it shall come to pass at the end of days that a wind of blood shall rise for cleansing and cold iron blades shall rise for prunning. . . ."
"'Thus shall the throne of the Crimson Empress be established."
This certainly established Ria's queenship (is that a word?) over the Marsh people. This is interesting. I've got to dig up all that Ezra said. Now is the time to have a Nook or Kindle. Anyone out there in among the silent readers have one and can search for references? And maybe also all the references in both books to Lyias. I think he is an important player in this series and I will have more to say on him later.
Ok, anyone else want to take a wild guess at who the Crimson Queen might be? You started this Paul.


Melhay wrote:

Nadine wrote:

I will have to go back and find out where Ezra, the Marsh Prophet, first talked to Winters. I think he provides some interesting clues that should be taken into the mix.

 

On page 256 he is talking to Jin and tells her:

==="I am Ezra. I am herald to the soon-coming Macht Queen and prophet of the Crimson Empress."

 

So I think that rules out Ria as being the Crimson Empress.

 

On page 257 he continues his talk with Jin and provides another interesting little tidbit of information:

 

"We intend to honor our kin-clave with the Gypsy King. Our houses have much work to do, together, in shaping the Named Lands for the new Age that dawns upon us. . . . . You [Jin] are part of this great making. As is your husband. And Jakob -- he is most highly favored among men."

 

On page 308 Jim and Winters are talking to a Captain who has encountered Ezra, I assume.

 

===The Captain says: "There is an old man who fancies himself a prophet. He is preaching a new gospel openly now, and people are listening.... He points to scriptures that predicted the fall of Windwir -- to the very day -- and claims it heralds the extablishment of an empress."

 

The Captain then quotes Ezra:

==== 

"And it shall come to pass at the end of days that a wind of blood shall rise for cleansing and cold iron blades shall rise for prunning. . . ."

 

As his words trailed off, Winters was surprised by the voice that picked up the recitation. "'Thus shall the sins of P'Andro Whym be visited upon his children,'" Jin Li Tam said quietly.

 

Yes. She [Winters] met Jin's eyes and saw something there that disturbed her. Swallowing, she took a breath and finished the recitation. "'Thus shall the throne of the Crimson Empress be established."

 

This segment makes me think Jin might be the Crimson Empress but she doesn't know it yet. But, knowing the way things happen in this world and how people are groomed for certain ends, I am wondering if Jin has been bred and trained to become the Crimson Empress. :smileywink: She also has red hair.


 

I love doing this!!!  You have made some great points here.  but I can see this relating to Ria as well.

 

===I was thinking Ezra referencing Harold and Prophet could be to the same person.  She is the soon coming Macht Queen but could be the Crimson Empress once she steps into that position and then takes over everyone else.

=== Ezra claims to be a prophet then mention that it harolds in the empress.  He says he harolds for Ria.  Could this work backwards?  He harold for Ria and the gospel harolds Empress, which he tells of the gospel so therefore harolds the Empress ~~ Empress could be Ria?

====Iron blades are what the Machtvolk used to kill and shed the crimson blood.  The throne of the Crimson Empress established.  By the bloodshed thus creating the Crimson Empress.  Then the word throne - I think may have to do with the throne that the Marsh King/Queen has to carry up the climb to proclaim them self.

 

I know I might really be stretching to get a relation here to Ria.  But, I at least gave it a try.  I could probably get this to fit to Meirov if I really needed to as well.  lol.


 

 

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paulgoatallen
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


Nadine wrote:
Ok, anyone else want to take a wild guess at who the Crimson Queen might be? You started this Paul.

Ha! I guess I did, Nadine...

 

My guess is tied in with the hugely significant quote: "The Age of the Crimson Queen is at hand... it is time for us to receive the mantle of our great heritage and prepare for her coming. You believe that we are called the Marshfolk because we live in the northern, barren wetlands. But I say to you now that is not so. Once, long ago, before we touched this landin the Firstfall, we were the Machtvolk. The Making People, in service to the Moon Wizard Who Fell."

 

I have two paths of thought here – my first guess is Winteria, the other is Meirov. (But I'm going with Winteria!)   :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

 


Nadine wrote:
Ok, anyone else want to take a wild guess at who the Crimson Queen might be? You started this Paul.

Ha! I guess I did, Nadine...

 

My guess is tied in with the hugely significant quote: "The Age of the Crimson Queen is at hand... it is time for us to receive the mantle of our great heritage and prepare for her coming. You believe that we are called the Marshfolk because we live in the northern, barren wetlands. But I say to you now that is not so. Once, long ago, before we touched this landin the Firstfall, we were the Machtvolk. The Making People, in service to the Moon Wizard Who Fell."

 

I have two paths of thought here – my first guess is Winteria, the other is Meirov. (But I'm going with Winteria!)   :smileyhappy:

 

Paul

 

 


 

Good quote find, Paul. Winteria the elder or Winteria the younger? I have been kind of calling them Ria and Winters, respectively, to keep them apart. There is a lot we don't know yet about Ria's birth and cover-up and Winters being groomed for Marsh Queen (and she is The Dreamer and I think that is important). I'm wondering if she could be related somehow to Amal.

 

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paulgoatallen
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 


Nadine wrote:

 

Good quote find, Paul. Winteria the elder or Winteria the younger? I have been kind of calling them Ria and Winters, respectively, to keep them apart. There is a lot we don't know yet about Ria's birth and cover-up and Winters being groomed for Marsh Queen (and she is The Dreamer and I think that is important). I'm wondering if she could be related somehow to Amal.

 


Well, I was thinking Ria.... it makes sense to me from an epic fantasy storyline standpoint... I mean, we have three novels to go so the end can't be close – there has to be some other major upheaval or onflict. I am guessing that Ria will rise to power and try to recreate the world thusly and Winteria will be part of the resistance... make sense?

Paul

 

 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Nadine
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Re: OCTOBER FEATURE #1: Canticle by Ken Scholes: Section 3 –Chapter 18 - End

 

Ah, I just thought of two other female possibilities.
First, Ken had Ria mating with Mal. Must be more to that then just a pasing incident. Maybe Ria is pregnant and her child will be the Crimson Queen.
But the other possibility has my interest and I will have to do more research but it stikes me as a real possibility. A character introduced in Canticle with her own POV who somehow becomes "magiked" and dies "unseen and invisible" in a situation only witnessed by her husband Baryk. She is supposedly buried as an "invisible" person in a sack with only Vlad and Baryk as witnesses. Rae Li Tam may still live and could be the Crimson Queen.

Nadine wrote:

 


paulgoatallen wrote:

I think that the Crimson Queen is a character that we already know. Just a feeling...

 

Paul


 

 

I agree, Paul, and that does cut down the list a bit. And if so that leaves us with Ria, Jin, Winters,Queen Meirov, the River Woman or Lynnae. Have I missed anyone?

 

My guess now is that it is Queen Meirov or Jin.Queen Meirov is a long shot and I'm guessing her for the reasons I stated just a few posts ago and because we know so little about her and I think she is destined to be a major player in the later books. Winters is also high on my list.

 

I will post a bit on why I think it might be Jin a bit later. Are any of the rest of you up to a wild guess and why?