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Melhay
Posts: 2,062
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

[ Edited ]

kenscholes wrote:

Canticle should hit stores in October.  :smileyhappy:


 

I added this to my little handy dandy books notebook, in red to boot so it jumps out at me, to not forget to look for it since October seems so far away right now. 

 

Mel

Message Edited by Melhay on 03-14-2009 01:51 PM
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"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

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Nadine
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

I have been pondering when and where this time and place is. Of course, being fantasy it does not have to be anywhere. But Ken does have a mixed bag here so it could be. Everything could match our world either in the far past or far future. The moon however is a blue-green. Seems like a viable place in its own right and not our dead moon.

But last night I read an interesting narrative of Petronus that got me thinking.

------------------------------------------
.pg 131...He watched that blue green globe and wondered at the power of the Younger Gods. Once, in the oldest, oldest times, it had been gray and barren. But according to the legends, the Younger Gods had brought it water and soil and air, turning it to a paradise. He'd even read one surviving fragment from the Hundred Tales of Felip Carnelyin, who claimed to have traveled there to see many wonders, including, the Moon Wizard's tower -- a structure that could be seen with the naked eye on some nights.
----------------------------------------

Now fantasy need ever answer this question of real time or place so it is something that will probably never be addressed. But it seems that Ken might be building up hints that this is actually speculation about our future. Certainly a very old  and advanced science and technology could be viewed as "magic" by some future people who had pulled themselves out of a primitive past.. But I was wondering if any of you have any thoughts or speculations on if this could possibly be our future?
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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes


kenscholes wrote:

Ken is probably chuckling over all our analysis. But he did mention that his book was part mystery. And the series is half written and, since it is finite story that seems to be well planned out to his known ending, I think clues (and red herring) has already been dropped into this first book. He is still just inventing the details of how he gets there. So there has to be "method" in all of this.

I AM chuckling in a delighted sort of way.  I always thought talking about my work with other writers and my first readers was satisfying and fun but to be in on this conversation is truly a new high point.  I love seeing the thoughts and speculations unfold. 

 

And some of this is planned in advance and some of this is figured out in hindsight as I look at the previous book while crafting the next....

 

 


Speculation on a series like this, especially since no one knows the ending yet, can be a fun activity whether it works out the way people expect it to or not. There is a lot of potential in this book and probably future books to make this activity viable. It does have a finite destination (as apposed to an open-ended series), There are a lot of hints (and probably deliberately misleading remarks) that can lead the reader on to quite a bit of speculation. It is also not your standard formula series. We have no idea of what it really is or what it will turn into. That is why I think it has the potential to be as much fun, if not more, than Harry Potter.

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paulgoatallen
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Ken:

How did Team 4J come to be? Was it through Tor? Or was it a group of trusted friends/readers you approached?  I'm curious because other authors we have talked with here have comparable "teams" of readers and I find the whole idea fascinating!

Paul 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Nadine

 

While reading this book, and like you realize it is fantasy not prediction of future, but I does seem to be based off of us in the future idea.  The Androfrancines go out to "dig" up the past.  Part of the past they dig up are the science and technologies that could be "our" future which is thousands of years before Androfrancines.

 

In the beginning of the book I was very taken by the Magick and Science concept that Ken drew for me.  I thought they were written parallel to each other or equals.  They started off as separate yet equally powerful beliefs of people, there was a group that used and lived with magicks, Xhum Y'Zir, and another that used and lived with science.  It seemed to me they were threatened by each other.  They were both strong and had days of strength or power over the other (Science killed the 7 sons of Zir & Magick destroyed for revenge.)  Yet these both were the reasons the old world ended.  Then, they are combined @ Windwir by the Androfrancines.  Many of what was founded by A. were documented, researched, and believed should be locked up away from humanity, at least till humanity was ready for them or if dangerous maybe never.  It seemed that the A. believed humanity would destroy herself with the wrong, or right, information.  The two together seemed to be more powerful than anticipated by the A.

 

With typing this I then came up with another question.  I can't remember why the old world ended.  Was Zir's spell why the old world ended?  If not why did he create a spell and not use it?  Or did he?

 

These people in the book seem to me to be in a primative way of living, example no electicity and back to horses, yet they do still have some technology.  They do not seem to have a primative way of thinking though.  I don't know about it being out future... I will have to think on this one a little longer.

 

Mel

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Nadine

 

You mentioned the blue green moon from pg 131.  I started thinking on that.  When Neb and Winteria talk of their dream pg 292 they mention the moon also, "In one of those dreams, they lay beneath a clear canopy looking up on a moon far more massive and blue and green and brown than the one that the one that hung in their night sky."  Then Winteria mentions, "This dream is of our home."

 

This seems to me that something will change.  What will change?  Could this be just due to the planet being closer to the moon due to season or is it for something bigger?  What do you take from it?  Also, Winteria was worried over the "the second death in the fire for the Androfrancine sin."  This will most likely evolve more, but what does this mean to you?

 

Mel

_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/
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paulgoatallen
Posts: 7,327
Registered: ‎08-16-2007

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes


Melhay wrote:

With typing this I then came up with another question.  I can't remember why the old world ended..

 


Mel:

For me at least, this is one  of the mysteries that powers this entire storyline. Why did the old world end? How did the old world end? Those insights that connect point A to point B are going to be where the real profundity exists. Another area that I can't wait to uncover is (obviously!) the overall conclusion, that is, how does humankind move forward, rebuild, redefine itself, and get past their seemingly fatal flaws? 

"There never can be a man so lost as one who is lost in the vast and intricate corridors of his own lonely mind, where none may reach and none may save..." – Isaac Asimov, Pebble in the Sky
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Nelsmom
Posts: 2,628
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

I'm about halfway through rereading Lamentations and I was so busy trying to finish the book that I paid no attention to the first time Jin Lin mentioned the Golden Bird.  I love the way she has devoloped a relationship with Issak.  Thanks to all the disscussion I am seeing all the little things that I missed the first time which makes this reading just as enjoyable as the first one but with a deeper level of meaning.

 

Toni

Toni L. Chapman
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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
Registered: ‎10-30-2006
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

I notice that the link to the "More by Ken Scholes" in the upper right hand corner of the board is dead. In case some people here are interested in an anthology of Ken's short stories,here is the correct link. This anthology only came out last October. Ken is really a very new author. Can you imagine what his work will be like once he is a little more "seasoned"!

 

This is the anthology that contains the seed story that inspired this series:  "Of Metal Men and Scarlet Thread and Dancing with the Sunrise". And here is the art work by Allen Douglas that inspired Ken to actually do the series. I would insert it into this thread but I don't know how.

 

Of Metal Men and Scarlet Thread and Dancing With the Sunrise 
 
Ah, I did it! That isn't the caption but just me patting myself on the back.

 

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carmen22
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

This is my first Discussion and I wanted to let everyone know how much fun I'm having and Thanks!!! And everyones ideas and thoughts are Great!!!
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"Bright colors, Vasher thought. I'll have to get used to those again. In any other nation, the vibrant blues and yellows would have been ridiculous on soldiers. This, however, was Hallandren: land of Returned gods, Lifeless servants, BioChromatic research, and - of course - color." Warbreaker By Brandon Sanderson
Author
kenscholes
Posts: 136
Registered: ‎10-17-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

This tickles me. 

 

And those of you who've read "A Weeping Czar Beholds the Fallen Moon" (over at tor.com) have a hint at the events that brought the Moon Wizard down.  Felip Carnelyin is also mentioned in the story.  And someday, I will write the One Hundredth Tale of Felip Carnelyin.  I actually started it -- it was going to be my first novel back before I started Lamentation.  And I had no idea it was a part of this greater story framework until I was in the thick of drafting Lamentation and I saw the storlines linking up through vast tracts of history and mythology.

 

Really enjoying all the specualtions and am deeply gratified that folks are going back for second readings on the book!

Author
kenscholes
Posts: 136
Registered: ‎10-17-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Good question, Paul.  Team4J is just a clever name I came up with for the four core friends that I'm most in contact with who also read my work and comment on it.  It's a bit of a misnomer because now there are several non-J people who are also helping with that and I have a few other very close friends outside of that group that I consider to be part of my core.

 

Originally, it was just John and we didn't have a name for it.  But we went to writing stuff together, classes and cons and readings and such and became the best of friends.  Then, in 2001, when my short story "Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk" came out in Talebones, Jay Lake reviewed it for Tangent back when he was in the midst of his first story sales too.    Jen showed up in 2003 and I moved to Portland where Jay and I started hanging out quite a bit more.  In about 2004 or so I started referring to them as Team3J.  Then I met Jerry in 2005 when I started at my present day-job in local government and we became fast friends -- he read voraciously and liked my work so he became part of that team and we expanded it to Team4J.  But there are also some A's, an R, an M on the team now, too.

 

So not a Tor thing at all.  I just wanted my closest friends to have a clever superhero team name.

 

 

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Nadine
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Isaak

 

I love Isaak. I consider him to be the most sensitive and honest character in the book. But I am noting inconsistencies in him that might lead to the conclusion that he is not quite as innocent as he seems to be. Some I only vaguely remember and hardly noted in my first reading. And I haven't gotten to many of them yet in my second reading but I surely have been watching for them. The first I noted was on pgs 141-142. He is talking with Jin Li Tam about what happened and how it happened. Let me quote the first curious section of the conversation:

-------------------------------
Jin shuttered. "How could such a thing happen."
Isaak turned away. [curious--he turned away. A very human-like reaction from a human with something to hid or is lying, missed by the observant Jin who reads humans very well.] My script was modified. [Not: I think my script was modified. He knows this -- how and with what certainty that this is what happened?] They were always so careful with us. Brother Charles expunged my memory each night, careful that I should not keep such knowledge. But his apprentice -- under Lord Sethbert's instructions [not "probably under Lord Sethbert's instructions -- again he knows this and with an altered memory.] --altered my activity script." [Did a mere apprentice have such knowledge or did he just activate something that was there already?]

----------
"There was a time when there were thousands of us. When Rufello drew up his Specifications and Observations of the mechanical Age, he was working with the broken and discarded remains of mechoservitors found in the ruins of the Eldest Days, broken artifacts from the Age of the Younger Gods." [No comment at this time. I just wanted to highlight this fact.]

-------------
But then he continued. "My memory scrolls have been replaced at least twice since my first awareness. I have no record of those times. [Not "my memory scrolls have been replaced" or "my memory scrolls have been replaced at least once" but he remembers that they were replaced before the second time they were replace. That is a nice trick if you can do it!] My first memory is Brother Charles asking me if I were awake and could I recite the Fourteenth Precepts of the Francine Accord"
-------------

Now the biggy that I haven't gotten to and maybe someone else has and can note it, is that I believe he outrightly lies to Pope Resolute and has no qualms about it. 

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Nadine
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

carmen22 wrote:

And I'm also not convinced Sethbert was the main player in the down fall of Windwir!!

 

Very good observation Carmen! I am with you. He is too obviously the culprit.  I'm not sure yet exactly what his involvement is. I do note that a lot of the players have mentioned that they don't fully understand why he did it, so I think Ken is trying to plant that idea . And at the end (and I will pick up some things on my reread) I believe that there was some evidence that someone else was involved and possibly responsible. Sethbert was probably someone elses pawn. Besides he isn't the brightest of the players.

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carmen22
Posts: 988
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes


Nadine wrote:

Isaak


Now the biggy that I haven't gotten to and maybe someone else has and can note it, is that I believe he outrightly lies to Pope Resolute and has no qualms about it. 


Isaak does admit to lying to Pope Resolute to Jin. Pg. 187 "Pope Resolute asked me if I could reproduce the spell from recall, in writing." "When he asked me to, I told him I could not. I told him that part of my memory scroll had been damaged in the execution of the spell." Jin Li Tam sighed. "And he believed you?" "Of course he believed me. Mechanicals cannot lie." 

 

He also lies to Petronus at the end about the same issue. Is this what you are refering to?

 

I also feel strongly about Isaak and I'm sure we will see more of him in the books to come!!

_______________________
"Bright colors, Vasher thought. I'll have to get used to those again. In any other nation, the vibrant blues and yellows would have been ridiculous on soldiers. This, however, was Hallandren: land of Returned gods, Lifeless servants, BioChromatic research, and - of course - color." Warbreaker By Brandon Sanderson
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Nadine
Posts: 2,456
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes


carmen22 wrote:

Nadine wrote:

Isaak


Now the biggy that I haven't gotten to and maybe someone else has and can note it, is that I believe he outrightly lies to Pope Resolute and has no qualms about it. 


Isaak does admit to lying to Pope Resolute to Jin. Pg. 187 "Pope Resolute asked me if I could reproduce the spell from recall, in writing." "When he asked me to, I told him I could not. I told him that part of my memory scroll had been damaged in the execution of the spell." Jin Li Tam sighed. "And he believed you?" "Of course he believed me. Mechanicals cannot lie." 

 

He also lies to Petronus at the end about the same issue. Is this what you are refering to?

 

I also feel strongly about Isaak and I'm sure we will see more of him in the books to come!!


Thanks Carmen. Yes his lie to Pope Resolute was what I was thinking of but I couldn't remember where or what it was. But I totally don't remember him saying the same lie to Petronus, who is supposedly a "good guy." Good find! He doesn't lie to Jin Li Tam (so far as we know) but he does lie to Popes! There is more to Isaak than is apparent.

 

One think that has been nagging me, why did Sethbert's men collect the all 13 servmechanicals but not Isaak, the most important one. They deliberately left him behind without his leg. I don't think that was under Sethbert's orders either. And I have already passed that my on my second time through. Hmm, I wonder if Vlad Li Tam's number whatever son had something to do with this. I shouldn't forget on my rereading to look out for him. In my first time through, I had never noticed him (nor do I remember his name, if we ever knew it) until toward the time of Sethbert's arrest.

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Nadine
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Mel wrote:

Also, Winteria was worried over the "the second death in the fire for the Androfrancine sin."  This will most likely evolve more, but what does this mean to you?

-------------------

 

I totally missed this one. Where was it? 

 

Interesting that we have a case being build toward some "sin." The last line of the book:

 

"Thus shall the sins of P'Andro Whym be visited upon his children," the kin-raven tells its master.

 

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Nadine
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

Melhay Wrote:

You mentioned the blue green moon from pg 131.  I started thinking on that.  When Neb and Winteria talk of their dream pg 292 they mention the moon also, "In one of those dreams, they lay beneath a clear canopy looking up on a moon far more massive and blue and green and brown than the one that the one that hung in their night sky."  Then Winteria mentions, "This dream is of our home."

 

This seems to me that something will change.  What will change?  Could this be just due to the planet being closer to the moon due to season or is it for something bigger?
--------------------------

 

Wow! I haven't even gotten up to the dreams yet in my second read and of course they are loaded with significant stuff. This moon is a reoccurring motif in this book (and I really should have been tagging those as I went along.). Ken has been hinting at that his story "A Weeping Czar Beholds the Fallen Moon" is related to this story and I think I had better get to that sooner rather thal later.

 

Back to you later on this.

 

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Nadine
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Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

In the other thread, Ken has a lot of fascinating comments about how he got into this project and his creative process. I just pulled out those few where he referenced items that might give us insight into the development of the story line.

More relevant comments from Ken from his first visit:

The Androfrancines themselves have a hierarchy that I based somewhat on the Catholic church, to include a Pope, though it is an Order that uses its religious framework soley to promote science and to protect "the light" of human knowledge that they dig from the ruins of the Old World.  The Franci were behaviorist dicsciples of Franci B'Yot (might be spelling the name wrong, which sucks since I made it up!) who eventually joined forces with the followers of P'Andro Whym to form the Order and eventually settle in the New World.

-----------------

IIt's come up once or twice.  I like how Kevin J. Anderson described it -- "an iconic SF story cloaked in fantasy."  Post-apocalyptic?  Certainly!  Science fiction?  Well, if I'm true to the POV of my characters, they would think they're in a fantasy, I suspect, and certainly I'm told that it follows some epic fantasy tropes.  This world or some secondary world?  Well, again, to stay true to what my characters could possibly know about their environment, that's a question to be answered later in the series if they ever get enough information to ponder and apprehend such thoughts.
Bibliophile
Melhay
Posts: 2,062
Registered: ‎12-11-2008

Re: MARCH FEATURE #1: Lamentation by Ken Scholes

[ Edited ]

Nadine wrote:

Mel wrote:

Also, Winteria was worried over the "the second death in the fire for the Androfrancine sin."  This will most likely evolve more, but what does this mean to you?

-------------------

 

I totally missed this one. Where was it? 

 

Interesting that we have a case being build toward some "sin." The last line of the book:

 

"Thus shall the sins of P'Andro Whym be visited upon his children," the kin-raven tells its master.

 


Winteria's quote is from pg 211 toward the bottom of the page.

 

I am sure everyone else has had the thought also but with the quote by the kin-raven I went back and read the Postlude again.  Could it be the 'master' that the dead bird is talking to be Xhem Y'Zir himself?  I don't remember ever reading that he was actually dead or died.  He could be capable with magick to bring the bird back to life and to bring his revenge on P'Andro Whym's people since he was the one to kill Zir's 7 sons and wife.  The Androfrancine where of from Whym and Francine combine.  ??  Could this be the big WHO that is out there, manipulated the gold bird, setup Sethbert, and who Vlad is looking for and doesn't know it???  It does sound in the postlude that Vlad is going the correct direction since the dead bird sees the ships.

 

Mel

Message Edited by Melhay on 03-15-2009 07:34 PM
_______________________
"There are no honorable causes. There is no good or evil. Evil is only what we call those who oppose us." From Nyphron Rising, By Michael J. Sullivan

My Blog Spot: http://melissa-melsworld.blogspot.com/