Catherine111 wrote:
The first thing I want to say is that I was in no way prepared for the complex family dynamics between Thoreau and Emerson. I am still pondering that. I find it to be quite fascinating. I was clueless as to the motivating factor behind Emerson’s statement about not believing in “The One.”
Emerson’s and Gwen’s relationship reminds me of another Andrew Lloyd Webber song “Only You” from Starlight Express (not one of his more successful musicals, I know). There is one particular line in the song that makes me think of Emerson & Gwen . . . “You gave me life not just existence.” I think that is a great way of expressing how I see their relationship. They have opened each other up in ways that no other person could. I’d like to get into romantic male lead characters in general and how women get caught up in dreaming about them, but it might be too much for this forum! I found Emerson to be quite believable and not the sweeps-her-off-her-feet male lead. Their relationship develops more slowly and they fall in love against their own self-induced rules. I hope I am making sense.
There is so much more that I came away with, but I am still processing it. It is a really deep novel with many complex themes. I plan on reading it again at a slower pace. I love how I can go back and start the journey all over again! I know there are layers there and with a 2nd and 3rd reading, I will learn more and more.
I have dragged my dusty Andrew Lloyd Webber CD out again and I have been playing it in the car, when I am cleaning, you name it. Now I think of Gwen when her songs are playing!
Deb, Thanks for opening this thread for us! 
Catherine, I love that song from "Starlight Express," too!! I hadn't thought of those specific lyrics when I was writing about Gwen and Emerson's relationship, but I love the connection you made and, to me, I find it very fitting as well. Thanks for sharing that.
As for romantic male leads and how we dream about them...we could talk about the heroes that influenced us...the ones we fell in love with first when we were young... For me, one of the biggest was Mr. Darcy. He had such intensity, but he was also this honorable, responsible, dutiful MAN. He may have only been 28 in Pride and Prejudice, but he didn't act like an overgrown boy. He had integrity and intelligence, although he was certainly in want of "liveliness," LOL, and I fell in love with him in spite of his flaws. Austen couldn't have crafted a better hero -- for Elizabeth Bennet or for me!
I also love Nathaniel Eaton in The Witch of Blackbird Pond and, of course, George Emerson in A Room with a View. They were bright and challenging to their story's heroines. And courageous.
What about you? What are the qualities of some of those male lead characters that make you dream about them?
Marilyn, who is now going to hunt down her "Starlight Express" CD and listen to that song again...
Marilyn I can't believe we'll be starting week three on Monday, where did the month go 
I loved this question you posed
What about you? What are the qualities of some of those male lead characters that make you dream about them?
What a great question and you know for me it's really more about how the character treats others than how attractive he is. I do tend to lean toward the more damaged ones. Is it in our female DNA to want to "change" our men or "heal" them. Maybe
In this novel I absolutely loved the Edwards brothers, I loved their competitiveness but it was also obvious how much they loved each other, knew when they'd gone too far and felt guilty about it.
this renews thoughts about our novel in March when we read The Proper Care and Maintenance of Friendship by Lisa Verge Higgins and Sam vs Dr. Dreamy.
My favorite male leads in a classic novel has to be Heathcliff, yeah call in the shrink 
I can't wait to hear other's opinions and choices
Catherine111 wrote:
Richard. I would like to talk about Richard. At first I thought he and Gwen were just mismatched. By the end I really disliked him.
What made you dislike him Catherine.
I'll give you my opinion of him, he is a staid, stuck in a rut, tied to his ways kind of guy. He's actually about 4 decades too late to star in a novel, he belongs back in the 60s with his attitude.
But he's also taken the lead from Gwen in their relationship, she's not very forthcoming either, she's also regimented and stuck in her own rut, which she kind of liked until she turned 30 and thought she should get a ring for her B-Day. They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there. And I was really impressed that he showed up in England and felt sorry for him when Gwen sent him on his way. I was often frustrated with him, but i never disliked him.
What do you think Gwen would have done if Richard had agreed to try something out of his comfort zone when he got to Europe, would Gwen's decision still have been the same.
I know I'm asking you to speculate, but I love speculating.
Mountain_Muse wrote:
Okay,
I did NOT go down and read through all the "spoilers", Lol, I'm a die-hard. But I did read the Post Chapter on Learning to Play Mah-Jong at Shake N Steak. Marilyn, you had me rolling. Yes, we (husband & I) we naive enough to think we could buy that adorable pricey "pack-n-tote" Mah-Jong set and teach ourselves to play after playing so many games of Mah-Jong Solitaire....What we found out very quickly was that it was definitley not the same thing as the computer game. Believe me, the instructions packed in with the game (in Chinese on one side and English on the other) might as well have been written in Chinese on both sides. Your "lesson" was classic!!
I love the line "Oh this this is easy." Yeah, RIGHT! As soon as those words come out of someone's mouth, I mentally shut down....because it AIN'T gonna be easy. And because they think it is, they aren't gonna make it any easier 'splanin' it.
BTW, one of the kids finally "lifted" the game and it's collecting dust at their house....I don't think they've figured it out either.
Muse
Ha!! Muse, I know... I felt exactly the same way. My friend might as well have been speaking in Chinese for my ability to understand her. I was SO confused!!
But it did make the night a memorable one .
You'll have to let me know if your kid ever figures out how to play the game!
~Marilyn
dhaupt wrote:
Catherine111 wrote:
Richard. I would like to talk about Richard. At first I thought he and Gwen were just mismatched. By the end I really disliked him.
What made you dislike him Catherine.
I'll give you my opinion of him, he is a staid, stuck in a rut, tied to his ways kind of guy. He's actually about 4 decades too late to star in a novel, he belongs back in the 60s with his attitude.
But he's also taken the lead from Gwen in their relationship, she's not very forthcoming either, she's also regimented and stuck in her own rut, which she kind of liked until she turned 30 and thought she should get a ring for her B-Day. They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there.
What do you think Gwen would have done if Richard had agreed to try something out of his comfort zone when he got to Europe, would Gwen's decision still have been the same.
I know I'm asking you to speculate, but I love speculating.
Loved reading about your favorite heroes, Deb (Heathcliff!!), and I look forward to reading Lisa's book so I can find out about Sam and Dr. Dreamy!
But then I saw this comment of yours: "They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there."
*SNORT!*
I'm so, so glad I'd already finished drinking my juice before seeing that . Yeah, I think you have a pretty good handle on what Richard and Gwen's relationship was like, LOL.
And I love your speculation question, too, about whether Gwen's decision would have been the same if Richard had been more open to experience in Europe. I have a personal opinion about that, of course, but I'd really like to be able to hear what Catherine and anyone else interested in chiming in have to say about that first.
Catherine, what were the qualities Richard possessed that irritated you most? Do you think he was capable of great change but just not open to it? Or do you think that was just his nature and he'd already changed about as much as was possible for him? There's no "right" answer, btw! It's one of those not-spelled-out, personal interpretation kind of things, but it interests me to know how a character like him is perceived.
~Marilyn
MarilynBrant wrote:
dhaupt wrote:
Catherine111 wrote:Richard. I would like to talk about Richard. At first I thought he and Gwen were just mismatched. By the end I really disliked him.
What made you dislike him Catherine.
I'll give you my opinion of him, he is a staid, stuck in a rut, tied to his ways kind of guy. He's actually about 4 decades too late to star in a novel, he belongs back in the 60s with his attitude.
But he's also taken the lead from Gwen in their relationship, she's not very forthcoming either, she's also regimented and stuck in her own rut, which she kind of liked until she turned 30 and thought she should get a ring for her B-Day. They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there.
What do you think Gwen would have done if Richard had agreed to try something out of his comfort zone when he got to Europe, would Gwen's decision still have been the same.
I know I'm asking you to speculate, but I love speculating.
Loved reading about your favorite heroes, Deb (Heathcliff!!), and I look forward to reading Lisa's book so I can find out about Sam and Dr. Dreamy!
But then I saw this comment of yours: "They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there."
*SNORT!*
I'm so, so glad I'd already finished drinking my juice before seeing that
And I love your speculation question, too, about whether Gwen's decision would have been the same if Richard had been more open to experience in Europe. I have a personal opinion about that, of course, but I'd really like to be able to hear what Catherine and anyone else interested in chiming in have to say about that first.
Catherine, what were the qualities Richard possessed that irritated you most? Do you think he was capable of great change but just not open to it? Or do you think that was just his nature and he'd already changed about as much as was possible for him? There's no "right" answer, btw! It's one of those not-spelled-out, personal interpretation kind of things, but it interests me to know how a character like him is perceived.
~Marilyn
Debbie, I do agree with your analysis of Richard. I have a bit more to say, and everyone is free to debate me!
Marilyn, he is your character, so forgive me if I am too harsh!
First, everything we know about Richard is filtered through Gwen, and she makes excuses for his behavior all the time. Her transformation comes from the rediscovery of who she really is, which has been suppressed by the pain of loss. As far as we know, Richard has not suppressed anything. He is who he is, so Europe wouldn’t really change him all that much. He makes a good effort trying to enjoy what Gwen enjoys, and I have to give him credit for that. But he complains about it at every turn.
I could accept that he is unromantic, set in his ways, boring. I was willing to accept that he was just not right for Gwen, until his final scene. My feelings for him change, when Gwen tells him it is over between the two of them.
He doesn’t fight for her.
He doesn’t ask how or why she came to the decision.
He treats her as you might treat a child --- if you do this, then that (there are ramifications).
He doesn’t say I love you.
He doesn’t ask how can we make it work.
He just walks away.
Again, the novel is written from Gwen’s perspective, so we don’t really know the mind of Richard. Maybe he gets on the plane and cries all the way home, but I can’t see that. I think he is selfish and Gwen threw a wrench into the works and caused disorder in his normally ordered life.
Gwen’s rigidity is spawned by loss; Richard’s isn’t (I am making an assumption here). I think if Richard let down his hair a bit in Europe and did lose some of his rigidity, Gwen would still make the same choice in the end. I think she realizes by the end of the novel that Richard doesn’t love her (and she doesn’t love him). She is different and her whole outlook is different --even about marriage.
Maybe on my second reading I will see Richard different. I plan to do a “real time” reading, which will be on a much slower pace. I am going to look deeper into those layers.
On a personal note, my husband is sort of a combination of Emerson and Richard. Maybe most men are? There is no way on God’s green earth my husband would feed me pasta in a public restaurant. However, he can be romantic in subtle, personal ways. He often calls me at work and tells me he misses me even though he has just seen me that morning. This novel has made me think of all those little romantic things he does that I take for granted!
And in regard to romantic heroes, my favorite romantic literary figure is Captain Wentworth in Persuasion. Most recently I have added Lord Conall Maccon from the Parasol Protectorate series (by Gail Carriger) to my list of favorites. He kisses his love interest Alexia for the first time because it is "the only way to shut her up.” They are a perfect match! Of course, Sam, Garrett, Rob, and Emerson rank high on my list too.
Sorry for such a long-winded post.
Catherine
Catherine111 wrote:
MarilynBrant wrote:
dhaupt wrote:
Catherine111 wrote:
Richard. I would like to talk about Richard. At first I thought he and Gwen were just mismatched. By the end I really disliked him.
What made you dislike him Catherine.
I'll give you my opinion of him, he is a staid, stuck in a rut, tied to his ways kind of guy. He's actually about 4 decades too late to star in a novel, he belongs back in the 60s with his attitude.
But he's also taken the lead from Gwen in their relationship, she's not very forthcoming either, she's also regimented and stuck in her own rut, which she kind of liked until she turned 30 and thought she should get a ring for her B-Day. They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there.
What do you think Gwen would have done if Richard had agreed to try something out of his comfort zone when he got to Europe, would Gwen's decision still have been the same.
I know I'm asking you to speculate, but I love speculating.
Loved reading about your favorite heroes, Deb (Heathcliff!!), and I look forward to reading Lisa's book so I can find out about Sam and Dr. Dreamy!
But then I saw this comment of yours: "They both handled their relationship like a algebra problem - if Gwen and Richard wanted to get married in Debuque and Richard took the train and Gwen drove when would they get there."
*SNORT!*
I'm so, so glad I'd already finished drinking my juice before seeing that
And I love your speculation question, too, about whether Gwen's decision would have been the same if Richard had been more open to experience in Europe. I have a personal opinion about that, of course, but I'd really like to be able to hear what Catherine and anyone else interested in chiming in have to say about that first.
Catherine, what were the qualities Richard possessed that irritated you most? Do you think he was capable of great change but just not open to it? Or do you think that was just his nature and he'd already changed about as much as was possible for him? There's no "right" answer, btw! It's one of those not-spelled-out, personal interpretation kind of things, but it interests me to know how a character like him is perceived.
~Marilyn
Debbie, I do agree with your analysis of Richard. I have a bit more to say, and everyone is free to debate me!
Marilyn, he is your character, so forgive me if I am too harsh!
First, everything we know about Richard is filtered through Gwen, and she makes excuses for his behavior all the time. Her transformation comes from the rediscovery of who she really is, which has been suppressed by the pain of loss. As far as we know, Richard has not suppressed anything. He is who he is, so Europe wouldn’t really change him all that much. He makes a good effort trying to enjoy what Gwen enjoys, and I have to give him credit for that. But he complains about it at every turn.
I could accept that he is unromantic, set in his ways, boring. I was willing to accept that he was just not right for Gwen, until his final scene. My feelings for him change, when Gwen tells him it is over between the two of them.
He doesn’t fight for her.
He doesn’t ask how or why she came to the decision.
He treats her as you might treat a child --- if you do this, then that (there are ramifications).
He doesn’t say I love you.
He doesn’t ask how can we make it work.
He just walks away.
Again, the novel is written from Gwen’s perspective, so we don’t really know the mind of Richard. Maybe he gets on the plane and cries all the way home, but I can’t see that. I think he is selfish and Gwen threw a wrench into the works and caused disorder in his normally ordered life.
Gwen’s rigidity is spawned by loss; Richard’s isn’t (I am making an assumption here). I think if Richard let down his hair a bit in Europe and did lose some of his rigidity, Gwen would still make the same choice in the end. I think she realizes by the end of the novel that Richard doesn’t love her (and she doesn’t love him). She is different and her whole outlook is different --even about marriage.
Maybe on my second reading I will see Richard different. I plan to do a “real time” reading, which will be on a much slower pace. I am going to look deeper into those layers.
On a personal note, my husband is sort of a combination of Emerson and Richard. Maybe most men are? There is no way on God’s green earth my husband would feed me pasta in a public restaurant. However, he can be romantic in subtle, personal ways. He often calls me at work and tells me he misses me even though he has just seen me that morning. This novel has made me think of all those little romantic things he does that I take for granted!
And in regard to romantic heroes, my favorite romantic literary figure is Captain Wentworth in Persuasion. Most recently I have added Lord Conall Maccon from the Parasol Protectorate series (by Gail Carriger) to my list of favorites. He kisses his love interest Alexia for the first time because it is "the only way to shut her up.” They are a perfect match! Of course, Sam, Garrett, Rob, and Emerson rank high on my list too.
Sorry for such a long-winded post.
Catherine
Paleeeze Catherine, have you not met my members here, we have lungs the size of Texas
I loved how you broke Richard down into sections and yes I have to agree with you, especially about the fact that
1 he didn't fight for her
2 he didn't say he loves her
I don't think he thought he had much choice but to walk away but he could have tried harder, but that's the biggest trouble with Richard and men like him they don't try hard enough.
thank you for your very valid thoughts on this.
Oh and the longer you're here the more you'll see that we LOVE to agree to disagree
Catherine111 wrote:
Debbie, I do agree with your analysis of Richard. I have a bit more to say, and everyone is free to debate me!
Marilyn, he is your character, so forgive me if I am too harsh!
First, everything we know about Richard is filtered through Gwen, and she makes excuses for his behavior all the time. Her transformation comes from the rediscovery of who she really is, which has been suppressed by the pain of loss. As far as we know, Richard has not suppressed anything. He is who he is, so Europe wouldn’t really change him all that much. He makes a good effort trying to enjoy what Gwen enjoys, and I have to give him credit for that. But he complains about it at every turn.
I could accept that he is unromantic, set in his ways, boring. I was willing to accept that he was just not right for Gwen, until his final scene. My feelings for him change, when Gwen tells him it is over between the two of them.
He doesn’t fight for her.
He doesn’t ask how or why she came to the decision.
He treats her as you might treat a child --- if you do this, then that (there are ramifications).
He doesn’t say I love you.
He doesn’t ask how can we make it work.
He just walks away.
Again, the novel is written from Gwen’s perspective, so we don’t really know the mind of Richard. Maybe he gets on the plane and cries all the way home, but I can’t see that. I think he is selfish and Gwen threw a wrench into the works and caused disorder in his normally ordered life.
Gwen’s rigidity is spawned by loss; Richard’s isn’t (I am making an assumption here). I think if Richard let down his hair a bit in Europe and did lose some of his rigidity, Gwen would still make the same choice in the end. I think she realizes by the end of the novel that Richard doesn’t love her (and she doesn’t love him). She is different and her whole outlook is different --even about marriage.
Maybe on my second reading I will see Richard different. I plan to do a “real time” reading, which will be on a much slower pace. I am going to look deeper into those layers.
On a personal note, my husband is sort of a combination of Emerson and Richard. Maybe most men are? There is no way on God’s green earth my husband would feed me pasta in a public restaurant. However, he can be romantic in subtle, personal ways. He often calls me at work and tells me he misses me even though he has just seen me that morning. This novel has made me think of all those little romantic things he does that I take for granted!
And in regard to romantic heroes, my favorite romantic literary figure is Captain Wentworth in Persuasion. Most recently I have added Lord Conall Maccon from the Parasol Protectorate series (by Gail Carriger) to my list of favorites. He kisses his love interest Alexia for the first time because it is "the only way to shut her up.” They are a perfect match! Of course, Sam, Garrett, Rob, and Emerson rank high on my list too.
Sorry for such a long-winded post.
Catherine
Catherine,
First of all, IMO, you post wasn't remotely long-winded .
Second, you don't have to apologize for criticizing a character. I didn't think you were harsh at all (and Richard deserves at least a little bashing, LOL).
Third, I thought your analysis was fascinating, and I really loved reading how you broke down his flaws. I found myself nodding my head along with several of them and particularly appreciated your comments about how Richard's character is filtered through Gwen's point of view and, also, how Gwen's rigidity is spawned by loss, but Richard's isn't. Both of those are spot-on observations.
For me, as the creator of Richard, I have to feel at least some compassion for him. But even my compassion is pretty heavily mixed with irritation because I find his window onto the world to be so narrow. I know people like this -- women as well as men. I run into them sometimes and they're so maddeningly unaware. They might know intellectually that a world exists beyond their little community and their personal set of activities, but they don't really believe it. You hear it in their gossip -- it's so small-minded and petty -- they're certain that they are perfectly positioned in the center of the universe. These same people tend not to be readers because they don't want to have to venture into regions they don't understand, whether it's a foreign country or a made-up galaxy or simply a city unlike their hometown. It makes them uncomfortable to be an "outsider" -- even if the trip is a purely imaginary one. They're the true "accidental tourists" in the sense that they try to make everything they encounter away from home fit into a familiar box. They may tolerate the "inconvenience" of a trip, but the last thing on their minds is any desire to be changed by the experience.
And that's Richard. He's competent, confident and comfortable while in his natural surroundings (an excellent insurance agent -- so calm!). His big demonstration of love for Gwen is in trying, albeit briefly, to leave his very familiar place and join her in London. He crossed an ocean for her! For Emerson, that would be nothing. But Emerson welcomes change and challenge...he's open to it and excited by the possibility it. For Richard, though, he'd have to suffer both being an outsider and not being competent. Traveling extensively doesn't cure everyone who possesses this fear, but it tends to prod at it, force it into the light, and make the person in question deal with it. Richard doesn't want that kind of light -- he wants his hometown, his narrow worldview and the simple confidence that comes from believing you know exactly where you stand with everyone and everything. Is it wrong for him to want that? No...not in my opinion. But I do think it's wrong for him to pressure somebody else into staying inside a familiar mental box if she doesn't want that. Even if she doesn't know it yet.
Gwen had many of Richard's same insecurities, but she didn't have his same mindset. She did love to read. For all of her structuredness, she could suspend disbelief and watch musicals and other whimsical things. She was genuinely touched by beauty and music. In her case, she just needed the opportunity to expand her worldview, something her aunt realized about her. Whether Gwen ends up with Emerson longterm or not, whether their relationship turns into real love, it's irrelevant to this critical change: that the window she'd been viewing her life through has now been dramatically enlarged. She can literally see more possibilities...
BTW, I'm so thrilled that you loved my other heroes, too! Sam, Garrett and Rob are standing a little taller today, less envious of Emerson and all the attention he's been getting here .
~Marilyn
Catherine and Debbie,
You two completely made my day!!!
What a delight to come home after an incredibly long Tuesday to find that you'd been celebrating Gwen's birthday . I thank you. Gwen thanks you. And Aunt Bea and the S&M Club send you cake, ice cream and racy t-shirts in appreciation!
Wish all of us here could jet off to Europe and start on their tour this week for real...
Hugs and thanks~
Marilyn
