Joy For Beginners Week Two Questios

[dhaupt]

Week Two

Sara
On page 105 in the HB version Sara wonders --- “at what point in her life she had ceased to be Gulliver and had become the strings holding him to the ground.”
And then on page 125 when she describes herself as being the tide pool
What does this say about who she was and what’s she’s becoming – or does it say anything at all.

Sara and Henry are twins and yet they seem so different, or do they
Tell us if you think they are different or not

How did you feel about how Henry went about deciding where Sara went

What did you make of the email Sara sent to her dad and at the end of week two’s read how we found out that her dad is spending the summer with her

Hadley
Is an enigma, she was a very unassuming presence at first and yet was a important part of this circle, she was the one I least remembered from the first time reading the novel and yet when I re-read her story it was the one that most spoke to my heart. I think the reason for that is very personal to me because I also lost my dad in a car accident and so the cognitive part of me put her story on the back burner. So I’m glad that I re-read the novel to rediscover her once more.

Give us a one word description of Hadley

Were you surprised by Hadley walking over to help Sara

On page 149  in the midst of completing her challenge she tells us that “I needed a porch”
did she find her porch, why or why not

Marion
Marion seems to be the one who has it all together – so why do you think Kate challenged her to get a tattoo

On page 173 Marion describes herself as a journalist “she was satisfied being a thought in someone’s day if it left room for her to grow into the next one. She was a chronicler of life as it was lived in that moment.”
What does this tell you about her-do you think it’s an accurate description

What do you think Marion had tattooed on her wrist – why

In finishing this second part the question of friendship kept coming up in my head, these women probably in a different situation would never have been friends, but because of circumstance, similarities and necessities they became a force. In my own life this is also the case.
Do you have a similar story – tell us

[EricaBauermeis…]

You know, it's interesting.  I've had people tell me that the women of JOY are all too nice to each other, but I think, Deb, you struck on something very important in your question about this group of women.  First off, I think that women (and men) can be this nice and caring of each other, but beyond that, I think a major factor in the bond between these women, the thing that both created and shaped their friendship, was the caring of babies and the facing of death with a friend. 

I just spent an evening with a fascinating book club here in Seattle.  They met, like the women in the group, in a haphazard way and have known each other for years as a book club.  But they spent much of the last year helping a friend die of cancer.  These friends were amazing.  The woman had lost her sight and they decided she shouldn't spend time alone.  For nine months, this group of women scheduled times so someone was  always keeping their friend company.  They signed up to bring dinner to the woman's husband so he could spend his free time with his wife.  They went to the woman's daughter's wedding, which was held at the hospital.  And the night I met with the group, three months after this extraordinary woman's death, they celebrated the news of the birth of her granddaughter.  The bond that this experience created among them was visible and beautiful and it was an honor to be with them.

[dhaupt]

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EricaBauermeister wrote:

You know, it's interesting.  I've had people tell me that the women of JOY are all too nice to each other, but I think, Deb, you struck on something very important in your question about this group of women.  First off, I think that women (and men) can be this nice and caring of each other, but beyond that, I think a major factor in the bond between these women, the thing that both created and shaped their friendship, was the caring of babies and the facing of death with a friend. 

I just spent an evening with a fascinating book club here in Seattle.  They met, like the women in the group, in a haphazard way and have known each other for years as a book club.  But they spent much of the last year helping a friend die of cancer.  These friends were amazing.  The woman had lost her sight and they decided she shouldn't spend time alone.  For nine months, this group of women scheduled times so someone was  always keeping their friend company.  They signed up to bring dinner to the woman's husband so he could spend his free time with his wife.  They went to the woman's daughter's wedding, which was held at the hospital.  And the night I met with the group, three months after this extraordinary woman's death, they celebrated the news of the birth of her granddaughter.  The bond that this experience created among them was visible and beautiful and it was an honor to be with them.

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Thanks Erica, that was a very emotional story and I have to admit I shed a tear or two about it.

I truly don't think these women were too nice too each other, but I think had we met them under different circumstances they would have take off the gloves more, I think that when a circle whether it be a family or friends will rally round if one of them is in need or hurting, they put away their pettiness.

[ReadingPatti]

Week Two

Sara
On page 105 in the HB version Sara wonders --- “at what point in her life she had ceased to be Gulliver and had become the strings holding him to the ground.”
And then on page 125 when she describes herself as being the tide pool
What does this say about who she was and what’s she’s becoming – or does it say anything at all. That she is growing up. That life changes and that you change with what comes your way.

Sara and Henry are twins and yet they seem so different, or do they
Tell us if you think they are different or not- I don't think they are that much different.

How did you feel about how Henry went about deciding where Sara went- not really sure. I think he just knew where to find her.

What did you make of the email Sara sent to her dad and at the end of week two’s read how we found out that her dad is spending the summer with her- She was telling him what she felt. I am glad that he came to spend the summer with her.

Hadley
Is an enigma, she was a very unassuming presence at first and yet was a important part of this circle, she was the one I least remembered from the first time reading the novel and yet when I re-read her story it was the one that most spoke to my heart. I think the reason for that is very personal to me because I also lost my dad in a car accident and so the cognitive part of me put her story on the back burner. So I’m glad that I re-read the novel to rediscover her once more.

Give us a one word description of Hadley= Determination

Were you surprised by Hadley walking over to help Sara-No, I think she knew that she coulld help Sara.

On page 149  in the midst of completing her challenge she tells us that “I needed a porch”
did she find her porch, why or why not-I think she did. It may not be a porch in the way we think. But a place inside herself where she could go to relax.

Marion
Marion seems to be the one who has it all together – so why do you think Kate challenged her to get a tattoo- To get Marion out of her comfortable zone and to put an end to her hanging on the her ex-husband.

On page 173 Marion describes herself as a journalist “she was satisfied being a thought in someone’s day if it left room for her to grow into the next one. She was a chronicler of life as it was lived in that moment.”-
What does this tell you about her-do you think it’s an accurate description-That she has a way about her that touches all the lives she comes into contact with. That she helps in someway that she may not know that will change that person life for the better.

What do you think Marion had tattooed on her wrist – why- So she could see it and remember why she did it.

In finishing this second part the question of friendship kept coming up in my head, these women probably in a different situation would never have been friends, but because of circumstance, similarities and necessities they became a force. In my own life this is also the case.
Do you have a similar story – tell us- One of my best friends I meet while I was in the Air Force. My friend Mary, I met when her unit shared the barracks(dorm with mine). SHe lived down the hall from me. We met when we had to do a GI party( Clean the general areas for inspection. Since then we have been best friends. We are sisters. We share everything.

If we had not been in the Air Force back in the seventies we would not have met. I am very thankful that the Lord brought us together. We have shared great times and sad times. She lives in Florida but we talk a couple times each month. I can call her any time and she prays for me and my friends. I call it I know a storm is going her way and we talk for a minute just to know we are fine. We have know each other since 1975.

[whiteginger]

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ReadingPatti wrote:

WhiteGinger added:

Week Two

Sara
On page 105 in the HB version Sara wonders --- “at what point in her life she had ceased to be Gulliver and had become the strings holding him to the ground.”
And then on page 125 when she describes herself as being the tide pool
What does this say about who she was and what’s she’s becoming – or does it say anything at all.

That she is growing up. That life changes and that you change with what comes your way.

WG:  I agree that Sara feels herself changing.Gulliver traveled and had adventures.  Sara, like Gulliver's strings are a restraint, has always restrained herself from travel.  She has convinced herself that she has simply chosen a different life, a different journey, a different adventure, but she thinks about the places her brother has been.  The tide pool reiterates this idea.  She can seemingly "thrive" in this "in-between" --enjoying her safe life, but always wondering about path she didn't take (traveling like her brother.) But the tide pool is really a trap, or at best a place of limbo.  Sara is finally going to cut her strings, to escape the tide pool.

Sara and Henry are twins and yet they seem so different, or do they
Tell us if you think they are different or not- I don't think they are that much different.

WG:  I don't really think they are different, but with the responsibilities of family, Sarah has kind of forgotten the race theme her dad taught them:  "Grownups should have fun so children will want to grow up."

How did you feel about how Henry went about deciding where Sara went- not really sure. I think he just knew where to find her.

WG:  I'm sure he began his search with his own "top ten"  and then looked for the least expensive.  I thought that was great--Sarah would have worried about the money, I think.  I also like his climate considerations so that she wouldn't have to worry about her wardrobe. (I wish he would come help me choose and pack for my next trip!)

What did you make of the email Sara sent to her dad and at the end of week two’s read how we found out that her dad is spending the summer with her- She was telling him what she felt. I am glad that he came to spend the summer with her.

WG:  Sara and her kids will be entering the race next year, I bet!

Hadley
Is an enigma, she was a very unassuming presence at first and yet was a important part of this circle, she was the one I least remembered from the first time reading the novel and yet when I re-read her story it was the one that most spoke to my heart. I think the reason for that is very personal to me because I also lost my dad in a car accident and so the cognitive part of me put her story on the back burner. So I’m glad that I re-read the novel to rediscover her once more.

Give us a one word description of Hadley= Determination

WG:  Stoic (at first)  Blossoming (at the end)

Were you surprised by Hadley walking over to help Sara-No, I think she knew that she coulld help Sara.

WG:  Yes, a little.  I even think there may have been just a tiny bit of selfishness in what she did.  Those kids were disturbing her life, too.

On page 149  in the midst of completing her challenge she tells us that “I needed a porch”
did she find her porch, why or why not-I think she did. It may not be a porch in the way we think. But a place inside herself where she could go to relax.

Marion
Marion seems to be the one who has it all together – so why do you think Kate challenged her to get a tattoo- To get Marion out of her comfortable zone and to put an end to her hanging on the her ex-husband.

WG:  Also a tattoo takes comittment (someone says that in the book, don't they?).  Marion hasn't found anything to comitt to in her life.

On page 173 Marion describes herself as a journalist “she was satisfied being a thought in someone’s day if it left room for her to grow into the next one. She was a chronicler of life as it was lived in that moment.”-
What does this tell you about her-do you think it’s an accurate description-

That she has a way about her that touches all the lives she comes into contact with. That she helps in someway that she may not know that will change that person life for the better.

WG:  I read that quite differently.  It made me thnik about the disposible quality of periodicals opposed to the greater permanence of novels or histories.  I felt a bit sad for her that she didn't feel settled  or that she hadn't found something worth thinking about for more than once .

What do you think Marion had tattooed on her wrist – why-

So she could see it and remember why she did it.

WG:  I remember reading a clue about that and thinking I should bookmark it, but I didn't.  I'll come back to this.

In finishing this second part the question of friendship kept coming up in my head, these women probably in a different situation would never have been friends, but because of circumstance, similarities and necessities they became a force. In my own life this is also the case.
Do you have a similar story – tell us- One of my best friends I meet while I was in the Air Force. My friend Mary, I met when her unit shared the barracks(dorm with mine). SHe lived down the hall from me. We met when we had to do a GI party( Clean the general areas for inspection. Since then we have been best friends. We are sisters. We share everything.

If we had not been in the Air Force back in the seventies we would not have met. I am very thankful that the Lord brought us together. We have shared great times and sad times. She lives in Florida but we talk a couple times each month. I can call her any time and she prays for me and my friends. I call it I know a storm is going her way and we talk for a minute just to know we are fine. We have know each other since 1975.

WG:  Wow.  Great stories girls. 

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[dhaupt]

Patti and Whiteginger, very nice answers

Whiteginger I love this answer from you

Marion
Marion seems to be the one who has it all together – so why do you think Kate challenged her to get a tattoo- WG:  Also a tattoo takes comittment (someone says that in the book, don't they?).  Marion hasn't found anything to comitt to in her life.

Do you believe that.

Patti -  I loved this story too, thank you for sharing it.

In finishing this second part the question of friendship kept coming up in my head, these women probably in a different situation would never have been friends, but because of circumstance, similarities and necessities they became a force. In my own life this is also the case.
Do you have a similar story – tell us- One of my best friends I meet while I was in the Air Force. My friend Mary, I met when her unit shared the barracks(dorm with mine). SHe lived down the hall from me. We met when we had to do a GI party( Clean the general areas for inspection. Since then we have been best friends. We are sisters. We share everything.

If we had not been in the Air Force back in the seventies we would not have met. I am very thankful that the Lord brought us together. We have shared great times and sad times. She lives in Florida but we talk a couple times each month. I can call her any time and she prays for me and my friends. I call it I know a storm is going her way and we talk for a minute just to know we are fine. We have know each other since 1975.

[Fozzie]

When Sara thought of herself as the strings tying Gulliver down, I think she felt tied down by the choices she had made to be a wife and mother.  She physically stayed in one place.  However, by referring to herself as a tide pool, she realized that even by staying in one place, she could be affected by outside forces (tides going in and out) and be a place of abundant activity and life.  I live along the coast ofMaineand school children study tide pools in school and on site.  They are vital to the ecology of the shore.  Sara is a vital part of her family’s life.

Sara sending her Dad the email saying, “I have an idea,” was a great way to have her story come full circle back to Sara’s childhood, a time of fulfilling dreams. 

The word I choose to describe Hadley is brave.  I cannot imagine the courage it would take to begin life again after losing a young husband after such a short time.

I was surprised that Hadley walked over to help Sara.  I wonder if she would have gone over ifTylerhad not spotted her?  I think she almost didn’t realize what she was doing.  “Hadley found herself walking across the grass in Sara’s yard.”  I had to chuckle whenMarionasked Hadley if she wanted to join the baby holding circle --- Hadley had started it!

Hadley did need a porch, both literally and metaphorically.  I think she did find a porch, both literally and metaphorically.  She literally opened up the porch by freeing it from the encroaching garden.  Metaphorically, Hadley needed to make herself available to people again.  Sitting on a porch is a great way to let people know that you are available.  A porch is an open place that people feel comfortable approaching and conversing with people on.  It is a great “meet in the middle sort of place” where neither party has to make a full effort, either to leave a house, or enter a house.

I had a hard time accepting that Kate could challengeMarionto get a tattoo.  I disagree with the concept of marking yourself for life because someone challenges you to do it.  In the story ofMarion, we do learn that she had thought about getting a tattoo, so I was able to understand whyMarionagreed to the challenge, but I could never fathom why Kate thought it was acceptable to ask someone to do that.  I could only assume thatMarionhad told her at some point that she wanted to get a tattoo.  And thenMariongot a tattoo on her wrist of all places!  I just didn’t “get” this story.

[whiteginger]

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Fozzie wrote:

Sara. . .  by referring to herself as a tide pool, she realized that even by staying in one place, she could be affected by outside forces (tides going in and out) and be a place of abundant activity and life.  I live along the coast ofMaineand school children study tide pools in school and on site.  They are vital to the ecology of the shore.  Sara is a vital part of her family’s life.

. . .  I had to chuckle whenMarionasked Hadley if she wanted to join the baby holding circle --- Hadley had started it!

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Laura, I loved the answers above! 

And, I'll  admit, I felt the same way about the tattoo challenge at first, but came to the same conclusion you did about Kate's knowing that  Marion had always thought about getting one.  (Doesn't some character Marion meets tell her NOT to get a tattoo if she is just doing it on a dare or because someone else tells her to?)

'

[Fozzie]

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whiteginger wrote:

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(Doesn't some character Marion meets tell her NOT to get a tattoo if she is just doing it on a dare or because someone else tells her to?)

'

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Yes, I think so, but I don't remember who.

[dhaupt]

Laura and whiteginger, it was Daria who told Marion not to get a tattoo just because someone dares you to it's on page 177 in the HB book, when Marion tells Daria she's going to do it because she promised Kate.

I also had trouble with the why, until pg 189-190 when Terry says to her" You know sweetheart," Terry said, your're the kind of person who wouldn't think twice if someone said you needed to get a tattoo for me or the kids. Doing it for you though, that might be the trick."  And when i read this part I think I understood the where she got it. On page 190 of the book HB Terry and Marion are walking through the garden center and they're checking out tattoos on the shoppers and Terry says to Marion "I always liked tattoos here, " Terry said casually, bringing her wrist up to his mouth. His lips lingered against her skin." 

And Laura, i too felt this way about Hadley

I was surprised that Hadley walked over to help Sara.  I wonder if she would have gone over ifTylerhad not spotted her?  I think she almost didn’t realize what she was doing.  “Hadley found herself walking across the grass in Sara’s yard.”  I had to chuckle whenMarionasked Hadley if she wanted to join the baby holding circle --- Hadley had started it!

Thank you for your comments

[whiteginger]

Debbie, thank you for going back and finding those references.  Busy week and I haven't even found time to search for "wrist" on my NOOK.  Do you have an idea about what her tattoo said/was?  Was there a subtle clue to an exact answer?  Or was that a pure speculation question? 

[Fozzie]

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dhaupt wrote:

I also had trouble with the why, until pg 189-190 when Terry says to her" You know sweetheart," Terry said, your're the kind of person who wouldn't think twice if someone said you needed to get a tattoo for me or the kids. Doing it for you though, that might be the trick."  

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So the answer to the why get the tattoo question is so that Marion would do something for herself and not for others.  I agree with this reference from the text, but I still don't think asking someone to get a tattoo as a challenge is "right."  There could be other challenges given that would force Marion to do something for herself.

[dhaupt]

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Fozzie wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

I also had trouble with the why, until pg 189-190 when Terry says to her" You know sweetheart," Terry said, your're the kind of person who wouldn't think twice if someone said you needed to get a tattoo for me or the kids. Doing it for you though, that might be the trick."  

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So the answer to the why get the tattoo question is so that Marion would do something for herself and not for others.  I agree with this reference from the text, but I still don't think asking someone to get a tattoo as a challenge is "right."  There could be other challenges given that would force Marion to do something for herself.

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It must go deeper, if Terry and Daria weren't surprised by it, maybe we'll have to wait to find out why, or maybe it's just implied

Or maybe this is something Erica can help us with

[whiteginger]

I think asking Marion to get the tattoo must go deeper, too, Deb.  These women know each other well,  While I can't imagine any of my friends asking me to get a tattoo, that's because they know me well enough to know I have NEVER wanted one and would NEVER get one for myself. (I have friends who have tattoos and that's great; they're just not for me.)

On the other hand, I tried to think of something shocking that a friend might challenge me to do and I came up with this:  If I were one of the women in this novel, I might be asked to travel to a foreign land and eat something really strange like. . .monkey brains that might be semi-poisonous if not prepared correctly.  On one level, I abhor such an idea, but on another, I am totally fascinated by it and drawn to it.  I have traveled, but to safe places and I usually shy away from the cultural delicacies if they are strange.  I would love to be brave enough to try the culture and ethnic food of some really exotic place.  My fiends know that.

[1AnneB]

Hi Everyone - I haven't quite finished our "assignment" yet, but I couldn't resist reading the responses ! I haven't read Marion yet, but I'm really loving the book and agree with many of the things that you all said - and disagree with a few - I'll try to comment tomorrow...

Anne

[aprilh]

With Sara being a stay at home mom, I got the impression that she felt like she lost a bit of herself taking care of the kids. She really loves being with her kids and taking taking care of them, but at the same time, she had all these dreams of traveling the world that got put on hold after the kids were born. I loved that Kate challenged her to travel. I could feel her nervousness and excitement jumping off the page.

I don't think Sara and Henry are really that different. Their circumstances are just different. Sara went on to marry and have children while Henry went on travel the world. I think if Sara would not have chosen to start her family, she would have been traveling with Henry. My feeling is now that Henry is with Daria, he might start to settle down and maybe start a family of his own.

Hadley was the character I thought I would connect with the least, but she turned out to be one of my favorites. Her story was so beautifully written. I could feel her deep sense of loss over her husband and was so proud of her with every step she took to try to start her life all over again.

I was very surprised when Hadley went over to help Sara. It seemed very out of character for her. When she lost her husband, Hadley seemed to withdraw from the world. When she went to Sara's to help out, I felt like she she was taking a huge  step to reenter the world and start to move forward by making connections with people again.

Marion had always liked tattoos and "the willing, blind leap into commitment" they represented. I loved that she compared them to a short story she had written in college and came across, only to rip it up, shocked by her immaturity. It seemed that her fear of writing stories instead of articles (cold, hard facts) and getting a tattoo went hand in hand. She was too afraid of what she would think of these things in the future.

I think Marion did get the tattoo on her wrist because her husband had kissed that spot and said that's where he had always liked tattoos. That makes me wonder if the tattoo she got was something sentimental to their marriage or maybe something to do with the new grandchild they learned they were expecting.

[whiteginger]

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aprilh wrote:

. . . SEE ABOVE . . .

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[dhaupt]

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whiteginger wrote:

I think asking Marion to get the tattoo must go deeper, too, Deb.  These women know each other well,  While I can't imagine any of my friends asking me to get a tattoo, that's because they know me well enough to know I have NEVER wanted one and would NEVER get one for myself. (I have friends who have tattoos and that's great; they're just not for me.)

On the other hand, I tried to think of something shocking that a friend might challenge me to do and I came up with this:  If I were one of the women in this novel, I might be asked to travel to a foreign land and eat something really strange like. . .monkey brains that might be semi-poisonous if not prepared correctly.  On one level, I abhor such an idea, but on another, I am totally fascinated by it and drawn to it.  I have traveled, but to safe places and I usually shy away from the cultural delicacies if they are strange.  I would love to be brave enough to try the culture and ethnic food of some really exotic place.  My fiends know that.

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Okay now I'll have the image of monkey brains all day

But I know what you mean and that's a great subject whiteginger.

Let's have all the participants answer that one, what do you think would be your challenge

I live a very sedintary life, I don't enjoy travel and my favorite vacation is probably sitting in my screened in porch enjoying coffee in the morning and a glass of wine in the evening,

So my challenge would be like Sara's I think and go beyond my comfort zone and try something challenging to me.

What's yours

[dhaupt]

April, you are brilliant, you've answered the question we've all been asking ourselves, why the tattoo, I can't believe I didn't put two and two together. And the correlation between her fiction and her facts. Thank you 

Marion had always liked tattoos and "the willing, blind leap into commitment" they represented. I loved that she compared them to a short story she had written in college and came across, only to rip it up, shocked by her immaturity. It seemed that her fear of writing stories instead of articles (cold, hard facts) and getting a tattoo went hand in hand. She was too afraid of what she would think of these things in the future.

I wonder even if it could be something more intimate between a man and woman, they are a very sensual couple aren't they, I'm jealous. Do you think if I have my husband read about Terry he'd change, nah. BTW yesterday was my 34th anniversary

I think Marion did get the tattoo on her wrist because her husband had kissed that spot and said that's where he had always liked tattoos. That makes me wonder if the tattoo she got was something sentimental to their marriage or maybe something to do with the new grandchild they learned they were expecting.

[Fozzie]

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aprilh wrote:

Marion had always liked tattoos and "the willing, blind leap into commitment" they represented. I loved that she compared them to a short story she had written in college and came across, only to rip it up, shocked by her immaturity. It seemed that her fear of writing stories instead of articles (cold, hard facts) and getting a tattoo went hand in hand. She was too afraid of what she would think of these things in the future.

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This response helped with my understanding of the tattoo challenge!  Thank you!