Joy for Beginners Week Three Questions

[dhaupt]

Week Three
Questions

Ava
The card game of life-Ava’s view that death trumped everything
Why do you think that changed for Kate’s illness or did it

Kate and Ava have been friends since age three
did it surprise you that Ava did not come to Kate during her illness even knowing how she feels about her mother’s death.

Ava says this about relationships on HB page 207 ‘—she couldn’t love what she could no longer smell”
What does this mean to you

The Walk
Did you understand why Kate assigned this to Ava, do you agree

In your opinion what did Ava learn from the walk

Kate
Kate’s refusal to be selfish she says caused her divorce- did it also effect her illness 

Knowing how Kate felt about her post cancer body, are you surprised she went skinny-dipping 

On page 250 Kate witnesses the rattlesnake mating and Madge says to her “ The river must want you to be here,” “to show you that.”

What was Madge telling her – or did you take that at face value.

On page 262 Kate says to herself that she had been a river
What does that say about the kind of person Kate is.

If it had been you, would you have jumped

Final thoughts
Characters
Novel
Your thoughts

[EricaBauermeis…]

A bit of backstory about the Grand Canyon chapter.  Almost 7 years ago, my husband, children and I were invited to going white-water rafting down the Grand Canyon.  Mind you, my children had barely even camped, and our main river experience had been floating down the Meramac in Missouri in inner tubes.  I was terrified and I argued strongly for not going.  My kids were just as determined to go and, in the end, there was no way I was going to let them go without me.  So I went.  It was amazing.  And terrifying.  And mind-opening.  On the last day, we went by a cliff.  By this point I'd risked death by water, rock-climbing, rattlesnake, sun-stroke -- you name it.  I was not up for another challenge.  My kids jumped.  My husband jumped.  I didn't.  Boy, do I wish I had.

The nice thing about writing novels -- sometimes you get to do something in words you didn't do yourself.

And btw -- I'm not Kate, although she does experience some of the things I did on that trip.  It was fascinating to re-imagine that trip through the eyes of someone with different life experiences...

[Mountain_Muse]

---

dhaupt wrote:

Week Three
Questions

Ava
The card game of life-Ava’s view that death trumped everything
Why do you think that changed for Kate’s illness or did it

I need to think on that one some more.  I feel Ava had put up barriers, for years around herself, she worked really, really hard to not let anyone (except Kate) get close enough to her to care about.  

Kate and Ava have been friends since age three
did it surprise you that Ava did not come to Kate during her illness even knowing how she feels about her mother’s death.

When she found out Kate got the BIG C... she couldn't face it again, but she associated death with the smells surrounding her mother's death and she couldn't bear to see Kate and risk encountering that smell, because then she would have to face the reality of losing someone again.  There are three ways to deal with life crisis == fight, flee, deny.  Ava chose the latter.

Ava says this about relationships on HB page 207 ‘—she couldn’t love what she could no longer smell”
What does this mean to you

This I understand very very much.  There is still one brand of face powder that I can open a box of and know it's my grandmother.  

On the other hand my son has almost no sense of smell and life can be a challenge, especially at meal time.  Half the love of a good meal is the aromas that accost your senses.  Ava carried this sense over into every aspect of her life and defined her existence by her sense of smell.

The Walk
Did you understand why Kate assigned this to Ava, do you agree

Ava asked Kate if this was punishment, and they both laughed.  But  I think Kate, in her wisdom was giving Kate the opportunity to mourn the loss of her mother, which I don't think she ever did. Remember "you can't love what you can't smell".  So Ava couldn't allow herself to love her mother anymore after she died.  She filed her away.

In your opinion what did Ava learn from the walk

This could be a book on it's own.  It's okay to mourn.  It's okay to be brave.  It's okay to trust in others again.  It's okay to get outside your comfort zone and do something bigger than you are.  In doing something for Kate, she (Ava) did something bigger for herself -- she gave herself freedom.

Kate
Kate’s refusal to be selfish she says caused her divorce- did it also effect her illness

I think it did in a positive way.  After caring for others and giving of herself, for years.  Her generousity returned in abundance.  The blue chair in the garden, cooked dinners, and the list goes on.  Each friend gave in turn based on the uniqeness of their bond.  The growth part for Kate was that she learned to accept care and the return of kindness.

Sometimes over achievers (in the mothering department) know how to love, care, and give till the bucket is empty, but they don't know how to allow themselves to be loved, cared for, and receive kindness graciously.   

Knowing how Kate felt about her post cancer body, are you surprised she went skinny-dipping 

On page 250 Kate witnesses the rattlesnake mating and Madge says to her “ The river must want you to be here,” “to show you that.”

What was Madge telling her – or did you take that at face value.

There is much spiritualism associated with The River.  There are many possible levels to that conversation.  I took it that Madge was letting Kate know that the River was blessing Kate and sharing its most valued secrets with her.  That Kate needed to look forward to the joy  of life that the River was teaching her about.

On page 262 Kate says to herself that she had been a river
What does that say about the kind of person Kate is.

If it had been you, would you have jumped

Oh yes, you only live once.  

Final thoughts
Characters

  My personal favorite, can't say why was Hadley.  
Novel
Your thoughts

Thank you for such a beautiful story that intertwined the lives of such real women and exposed their hurts, their strengths, their joys, their sorrows, their dreams and their willingness to grow.  It gives me hope and courage to dream about tomorrow and tomorrow's tomorrow.

Muse

---

[Mountain_Muse]

---

EricaBauermeister wrote:

A bit of backstory about the Grand Canyon chapter.  Almost 7 years ago, my husband, children and I were invited to going white-water rafting down the Grand Canyon.  Mind you, my children had barely even camped, and our main river experience had been floating down the Meramac in Missouri in inner tubes.  I was terrified and I argued strongly for not going.  My kids were just as determined to go and, in the end, there was no way I was going to let them go without me.  So I went.  It was amazing.  And terrifying.  And mind-opening.  On the last day, we went by a cliff.  By this point I'd risked death by water, rock-climbing, rattlesnake, sun-stroke -- you name it.  I was not up for another challenge.  My kids jumped.  My husband jumped.  I didn't.  Boy, do I wish I had.

The nice thing about writing novels -- sometimes you get to do something in words you didn't do yourself.

And btw -- I'm not Kate, although she does experience some of the things I did on that trip.  It was fascinating to re-imagine that trip through the eyes of someone with different life experiences...

---

Erica,

I should be jealous.  I lived within 6 hours of the Canyon for 30 years and only got to the rim one time.  We never made it to the bottom and have always wanted to.  Kate's story was fabulous!!!

Muse

[aprilh]

I truly felt for for Ava. Having lost her mother at an early age to cancer had to be awful. And then to have to relive it all over again with her best friend, Kate, not knowing if the outcome would be the same. I honestly felt that Ava could not do do it all over again. She was so afraid she'd smell "death" on Kate, like she did on her mother, that she just could not be there. Even though she felt that in the card game of life death trumped everything else, I don't think she had come to terms with her mother's death yet and therefore did not have the emotional strength to physically be there for Kate.

I think Kate assigned Ava the breast cancer walk because she knew it would help Ava deal with her mother's death and possibly help heal the some of the loss that she felt. 

I think Ava learned a lot on the breast cancer walk. It seemed she made a real connection with Elaine, who shared her tent. At the beginning of the walk, when Elaine and Ava are in line for breakfast, Ava notices a group of sisters standing in front of them, talking, touching each other without thought, tucking in the  tags on their shirts. Ava watched thinking the closest she's ever come to a relationship like that was with Kate. On the third morning, Elaine reaches over and tucks in the tag on Ava's shirt. I think it symbolized how close Ava's relationship with Elaine had gotten. How she was capable of letting another person into her life.

It was interesting to me that Kate felt she had made a deal with fate, giving up everything she felt to be unsafe, just to keep her daughter safe. "...she couldn't stand the thought of her daughter growing up wondering why her mother hadn't loved her enough to be careful." While I understood the desire of a mother to want to do everything possible to keep your children safe, I felt that Kate had lost a big part of herself by giving up things she used to do, such as skiing. With her final jump off the rock at the end of the book, it seemed Kate was starting to take risks and getting some of her old life back.

I was surprised that Kate went skinny-dipping, but I was so proud of her. I think for her it was freeing to finally be able to accept her body the way it was. I'm also glad Kate jumped off the rock at the end. It showed how far she had come. I felt a lot like Kate, rafting would not be something I would normally try, but having come as far as she did, I think I also would have jumped off the rock.

Kate is an amazing person, seeming to know what each of the women in her group needed and challenging them accordingly. Each challenge seemed to have great thought behind it. After crying one night at the river, Kate realized she had been a river for her friends, the one they told everything to. She felt they had shared all their thoughts and feelings with her because they weren't sure whether or not she would make it through her battle with cancer. The fact that Kate remembered all these things her friends shared with her and then challenged them to do these things for themselves showed what a wonderful friend she really was.

I really loved this book and was sad to see it end! It was an amazing book, one that will stay with me for a long time! 

[EricaBauermeis…]

Mountain Muse -- those are some really beautiful responses....

[EricaBauermeis…]

And April, thank you, as well.  Such wonderful words coming onto the screen this week.  I thank you!

[ReadingPatti]

Week Three
Questions

Ava
The card game of life-Ava’s view that death trumped everything
Why do you think that changed for Kate’s illness or did it- Not sure, your illness could change because of your mental state. Death does trump everything but I think that Kate had the strength to fight her cancer hard. She was determined that she would fight as hard as she could to live.

Kate and Ava have been friends since age three
did it surprise you that Ava did not come to Kate during her illness even knowing how she feels about her mother’s death.-No, Ava, may not have known how to act or what to say. Some people can't handle things like that. It is not that she does not love Kate, I think she did not know what to do or how to handle it.

Ava says this about relationships on HB page 207 ‘—she couldn’t love what she could no longer smell”
What does this mean to you-I am not sure.

The Walk
Did you understand why Kate assigned this to Ava, do you agree- I think that Ava needed to open what her eyes, to walk in someone else's shoes so to speak.

In your opinion what did Ava learn from the walk- That everything is not about her.

Kate
Kate’s refusal to be selfish she says caused her divorce- did it also effect her illness- No, she was fighting for her life. It is unfortunate that she got a divorce but she needed to get well.

Knowing how Kate felt about her post cancer body, are you surprised she went skinny-dipping-no, I think she was at a point in her life where I had cancer and it is gone. Judge me as you will.

On page 250 Kate witnesses the rattlesnake mating and Madge says to her “ The river must want you to be here,” “to show you that.” This was the place she needed to be at that point in her .life.

What was Madge telling her – or did you take that at face value.- You need to be certain places as certain times to just slow down and look around. To reflect on what you have and how many people love you and what you have, you are alive.

On page 262 Kate says to herself that she had been a river
What does that say about the kind of person Kate is. That she goes on. Just live a river the water moves. It takes a trip. She took a trip when she was sick and now she must start a new trip. Live the rest of her as best as she can.

If it had been you, would you have jumped- I don't think so, I can't swim and scared of heights.

Final thoughts -I was disappointed with the end. I wanted them to get back together.
Characters-I loved the characters.
Novel-It was good but the ending left me disappointed.
Your thoughts- good pick just that the ending left me wanting more.

[dhaupt]

Muse - thank you so much for your wonderful comments, this is the one that spoke most to me, maybe because I can't relate like you and Ava and it's not that I don't have a sense of smell, it's hard to describe and yet there are smells that bring back certain memories but vaguely.

Ava says this about relationships on HB page 207 ‘—she couldn’t love what she could no longer smell”
What does this mean to you

This I understand very very much.  There is still one brand of face powder that I can open a box of and know it's my grandmother.  

On the other hand my son has almost no sense of smell and life can be a challenge, especially at meal time.  Half the love of a good meal is the aromas that accost your senses.  Ava carried this sense over into every aspect of her life and defined her existence by her sense of smell.

[dhaupt]

---

EricaBauermeister wrote:

A bit of backstory about the Grand Canyon chapter.  Almost 7 years ago, my husband, children and I were invited to going white-water rafting down the Grand Canyon.  Mind you, my children had barely even camped, and our main river experience had been floating down the Meramac in Missouri in inner tubes.  I was terrified and I argued strongly for not going.  My kids were just as determined to go and, in the end, there was no way I was going to let them go without me.  So I went.  It was amazing.  And terrifying.  And mind-opening.  On the last day, we went by a cliff.  By this point I'd risked death by water, rock-climbing, rattlesnake, sun-stroke -- you name it.  I was not up for another challenge.  My kids jumped.  My husband jumped.  I didn't.  Boy, do I wish I had.

The nice thing about writing novels -- sometimes you get to do something in words you didn't do yourself.

And btw -- I'm not Kate, although she does experience some of the things I did on that trip.  It was fascinating to re-imagine that trip through the eyes of someone with different life experiences...

---

Well Erica, this was surprising to me because I live in St. Louis very close to the Meramac River.

So in your infinite wisdom you gave Kate the power and courage you couldn't find on your trip to the Grand Canyon. Did you ever get another chance to do it.

[dhaupt]

April, this part of your comments brought back the feelings that I had when I read it

I think Ava learned a lot on the breast cancer walk. It seemed she made a real connection with Elaine, who shared her tent. At the beginning of the walk, when Elaine and Ava are in line for breakfast, Ava notices a group of sisters standing in front of them, talking, touching each other without thought, tucking in the  tags on their shirts. Ava watched thinking the closest she's ever come to a relationship like that was with Kate. On the third morning, Elaine reaches over and tucks in the tag on Ava's shirt. I think it symbolized how close Ava's relationship with Elaine had gotten. How she was capable of letting another person into her life.

I loved this part and I can actually see it as I have two sisters and I can see us doing this.

What do you think smelling blackberries on Adam meant.

[dhaupt]

---

ReadingPatti wrote:

Week Three
Questions

Ava
The card game of life-Ava’s view that death trumped everything
Why do you think that changed for Kate’s illness or did it- Not sure, your illness could change because of your mental state. Death does trump everything but I think that Kate had the strength to fight her cancer hard. She was determined that she would fight as hard as she could to live.

Kate and Ava have been friends since age three
did it surprise you that Ava did not come to Kate during her illness even knowing how she feels about her mother’s death.-No, Ava, may not have known how to act or what to say. Some people can't handle things like that. It is not that she does not love Kate, I think she did not know what to do or how to handle it.

Ava says this about relationships on HB page 207 ‘—she couldn’t love what she could no longer smell”
What does this mean to you-I am not sure.

The Walk
Did you understand why Kate assigned this to Ava, do you agree- I think that Ava needed to open what her eyes, to walk in someone else's shoes so to speak.

In your opinion what did Ava learn from the walk- That everything is not about her.

Kate
Kate’s refusal to be selfish she says caused her divorce- did it also effect her illness- No, she was fighting for her life. It is unfortunate that she got a divorce but she needed to get well.

Knowing how Kate felt about her post cancer body, are you surprised she went skinny-dipping-no, I think she was at a point in her life where I had cancer and it is gone. Judge me as you will.

On page 250 Kate witnesses the rattlesnake mating and Madge says to her “ The river must want you to be here,” “to show you that.” This was the place she needed to be at that point in her .life.

What was Madge telling her – or did you take that at face value.- You need to be certain places as certain times to just slow down and look around. To reflect on what you have and how many people love you and what you have, you are alive.

On page 262 Kate says to herself that she had been a river
What does that say about the kind of person Kate is. That she goes on. Just live a river the water moves. It takes a trip. She took a trip when she was sick and now she must start a new trip. Live the rest of her as best as she can.

If it had been you, would you have jumped- I don't think so, I can't swim and scared of heights.

Final thoughts -I was disappointed with the end. I wanted them to get back together.
Characters-I loved the characters.
Novel-It was good but the ending left me disappointed.
Your thoughts- good pick just that the ending left me wanting more.

---

Patti, thanks for your comments,

tell us how you would have ended the novel

[EricaBauermeis…]

Debbie -- I haven't had a chance to go back to the Grand Canyon.  But interestingly, I think sometimes things we don't do act as motivation to do other things in our lives.  We think "I wish I had done that, so I should do this, even if it is scary."  So good comes out of it...

[ReadingPatti]

dhaupt,.I would have like to have read that they all got back together and told each other about how they completed their challenges and what they think they learned by doing them and what they learned about themselves.

For me that would have finalized the whole book.

ReadingPatti

[Mountain_Muse]

---

ReadingPatti wrote:

dhaupt,.I would have like to have read that they all got back together and told each other about how they completed their challenges and what they think they learned by doing them and what they learned about themselves.

For me that would have finalized the whole book.

ReadingPatti

---

Patti,

I think that each of these stories is a wondeful jump off for a book, unto itself.  I see an entire book coming from Hadley's story or Ava's story.  Those two spoke to me in so many ways.  At the same time, I can see another story of Kate's discovery of living and learning to be loved.

Muse

[aprilh]

---

dhaupt wrote:

April, this part of your comments brought back the feelings that I had when I read it

I think Ava learned a lot on the breast cancer walk. It seemed she made a real connection with Elaine, who shared her tent. At the beginning of the walk, when Elaine and Ava are in line for breakfast, Ava notices a group of sisters standing in front of them, talking, touching each other without thought, tucking in the  tags on their shirts. Ava watched thinking the closest she's ever come to a relationship like that was with Kate. On the third morning, Elaine reaches over and tucks in the tag on Ava's shirt. I think it symbolized how close Ava's relationship with Elaine had gotten. How she was capable of letting another person into her life.

I loved this part and I can actually see it as I have two sisters and I can see us doing this.

What do you think smelling blackberries on Adam meant.

---

It seemed to me that Ava only remembered the memory of playing the blackberry game with her mother and father after Elaine handed her one during the cancer walk. It was nice to see Ava remembering her mother before she got sick. So when she smelled the blackberries on Adam, I felt like it represented her mother's spirit being there with her.

[Mountain_Muse]

Final Thoughts

After reading this wonderful story, It has left me thoughtful and reminencent.  I sat down today and looked back over my life and while thinking I looked up at my computer screen.  There on my screen background was a picture that was taken just before I moved.  I was a group shot of 6 of us ladies.  We had been friends, I realized for 30 years.  We all had our children together, they grew-up and graduated from school together.  There we stood, with greying hair and smiles that looked oddly similar.  For, like long married couples, we had shared in each others joys, sorrows, laughter and tears for the last 30 years.  

That picture was probably the last time we will all be together again, as two of us have moved across country, one is in her late 80s, and two have health issues that are terminal.  I will treasure this picture and the friendship of this circle, for it was a lifetime of love, caring and sharing to remember forever. 

This pretty well sums both my circle and the essence of Joy for Beginners:

One friend in a lifetime is much; two are many; three are hardly possible.
- Henry Adams

Kate and her Circle were truely blessed.

Muse

[Fozzie]

I really liked Ava’s story.  Ava and Kate have essentially known each other their whole lives, so I know that a lot in the relationship goes without saying and may be incomprehensible to people.  I thought the reason that Ava did not go to help Kate was very straight forward and very logical --- “the possibility of the smell of death on her best friend was more than she could stand.”  (pg. 196)  Fear.  I think Kate knew this.  Kate clearly stated the reason for giving Ava her challenge on page 218 --- Kate wanted Ava to come home.  Kate wanted Ava to come back to being her friend without fear.  What a wonderful challenge!  And reward!

I knew that Kate would go skinny dipping at the time it was presented to her on the trip.  We learn on page 245 that she had gotten rid of the full-length mirror when her husband had moved out, and he had taken her sex life with him.  She was just getting ready to begin dating again when she received her diagnosis.  On the raft trip, she was on a journey of acceptance of herself.   Skinny dipping and seeing the rattlesnakes mating were two milestones on the journey.  The final milestone was jumping off the cliff.  For the record, I would not take the raft trip, but if I did, I would definitely jump!

I had to laugh about the impact of the water on tampons!  I had one flushed out of me once when I fell while waterskiing!  Water is a powerful force!

The quote on page 262, in which Kate refers to herself as a river means that taking care of Kate was as therapeutic for the women as it was for Kate to go on the rafting trip.  This speaks to the interconnectedness of the group of friends and the symbiotic relationships that exist between everyone.

One thing that I don’t think we mentioned was the times in the book where cooking and food were mentioned --- I noticed and enjoyed them all!

[Mountain_Muse]

---

Fozzie wrote:

I really liked Ava’s story.  Ava and Kate have essentially known each other their whole lives, so I know that a lot in the relationship goes without saying and may be incomprehensible to people.  I thought the reason that Ava did not go to help Kate was very straight forward and very logical --- “the possibility of the smell of death on her best friend was more than she could stand.”  (pg. 196)  Fear.  I think Kate knew this.  Kate clearly stated the reason for giving Ava her challenge on page 218 --- Kate wanted Ava to come home.  Kate wanted Ava to come back to being her friend without fear.  What a wonderful challenge!  And reward!

I knew that Kate would go skinny dipping at the time it was presented to her on the trip.  We learn on page 245 that she had gotten rid of the full-length mirror when her husband had moved out, and he had taken her sex life with him.  She was just getting ready to begin dating again when she received her diagnosis.  On the raft trip, she was on a journey of acceptance of herself.   Skinny dipping and seeing the rattlesnakes mating were two milestones on the journey.  The final milestone was jumping off the cliff.  For the record, I would not take the raft trip, but if I did, I would definitely jump!

I had to laugh about the impact of the water on tampons!  I had one flushed out of me once when I fell while waterskiing!  Water is a powerful force!  

Muse:  ROFLOL  

The quote on page 262, in which Kate refers to herself as a river means that taking care of Kate was as therapeutic for the women as it was for Kate to go on the rafting trip.  This speaks to the interconnectedness of the group of friends and the symbiotic relationships that exist between everyone.

One thing that I don’t think we mentioned was the times in the book where cooking and food were mentioned --- I noticed and enjoyed them all!

---

Well stated, Fozzie.  Yes, the food!

Muse

[dhaupt]

---

Mountain_Muse wrote:

Final Thoughts

After reading this wonderful story, It has left me thoughtful and reminencent.  I sat down today and looked back over my life and while thinking I looked up at my computer screen.  There on my screen background was a picture that was taken just before I moved.  I was a group shot of 6 of us ladies.  We had been friends, I realized for 30 years.  We all had our children together, they grew-up and graduated from school together.  There we stood, with greying hair and smiles that looked oddly similar.  For, like long married couples, we had shared in each others joys, sorrows, laughter and tears for the last 30 years.  

That picture was probably the last time we will all be together again, as two of us have moved across country, one is in her late 80s, and two have health issues that are terminal.  I will treasure this picture and the friendship of this circle, for it was a lifetime of love, caring and sharing to remember forever. 

This pretty well sums both my circle and the essence of Joy for Beginners:

One friend in a lifetime is much; two are many; three are hardly possible.
- Henry Adams

Kate and her Circle were truely blessed.

Muse

---

Great thoughts muse thank you for sharing with us about your own circle