Week 2 Discussion for Daughters of the Witching Hill - The Black Dog

[dhaupt]

From the looks of the comments you are all enjoying this month's selection I'm so glad and don't forget the author joins us starting next Monday.

Here are the questions for week 2

1. The year of 1601 seems to be an omen as to how the second part of the novel will go, including the death of John Device, massive crop and livestock loss. Trying to put yourself in their mind set, can you see how they blame Betty and Anne for these tragedies.

2. Alizon plays a unique role in her family as being the only “normal” one. We know she loves her family, but do you think her sometimes wish to be a part of The Holden family has to do with that normalcy or is more along the line of jealousy.

3. In chapter 11 Alizon appears to be coming into her powers even though she constantly insisting that she doesn’t want them. Are you surprised by her aversion of becoming a “cunning woman”?

4. The crown is out in full force making examples of “Papists”. We recall Alizon seeing the secret room in Alice Nutter’s home as a young child and she now overhears a conversation about a relative of a neighbor being caught harboring a priest. Our history past and present is full of religious persecutions, do you see anything different here?

5. It’s been a hard fall and winter for Alizon with the death of Nancy & her familiar finding her, yet she refuses to ask it’s name. Does she not want the cunning passed to her out of fear, disgust or is it something else, because she’s clearly torn by having the choice.

6. Bess and Alizon call Jamie out on his “evil behavior” as it’s noticed by not only Richard Baldwin but by Matthew Holden as well. The women tell Jamie that if he doesn’t stop it will literally be the death of them. Knowing Jamie like we do, do you think he knows the enormity of their warning, does he care.

7. Alizon’s run in with the peddler is really the turning point in the story, without revealing anything past this point, tell us why.

8. Roger Newell really fooled Alizon into compliancy with his false fatherly attitude when all he wanted was her charged with witchcraft. He fooled me too, how about you. Do you think he had an ulterior motive for wanting her locked up.

[Mountain_Muse]

dhaupt wrote:

From the looks of the comments you are all enjoying this month's selection I'm so glad and don't forget the author joins us starting next Monday.

Debbie,

I want to thank you for taking the time to put together a set of "discussion" questions.  They are well thought out and contain points that have potential for lively debate and repartee. 

Thanks also for choosing this book.  It is a perfect choice for October without dipping into horror, morbidity, or "blood-n-guts" as my kids used to say.  It is  proving to be a wonderfully written piece of historical fiction that allows us all to "wipe a bit of the grime" from the window pane of time and gaze into a time that we can barely fathom. 

I am looking forward to listening to her input and enjoying her comments.

Mtn_Muse

[ReadingPatti]

dhaupt, Hi,Patti here.

1) Yes, becuase Bess and Annie are different people back then tend to blame those who are different from them. They are very judmental and fear the unknown and fear the religious leaders that they too may be judged as witches.

2) I am not sure. It could be a little of both. I think Alizon is glad to be normal yet wishes to be a part of the family that has money.

3) No, she wants to be normal or appear normal. She fears the unknown and fears the religious leaders as well.

4) Yes, the religious leaders judge without any evidence and the unknown. Today, people just kill others simply because of their religion. Look at the battle of Jews and Palestinians. The Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. Muslims and USA.(Christian). The ones who follow Bin Ladem has a warped view of their religious. They decided that innocents people were collectoral damage when 9/11 happened. They did not care that they hurt many people. They blame us all for whatever problems they have.

5) I think it could be some of all of these things. She wants to be normal. She is frightened of the unknown. She does not want to run to risk of being a cunning woman because of fear of the religious leaders.

6) No, I do not think that Jamie had the capacity to understand what he was doing or what could happen to them all if he got caught. He was trying to help in a way that he understood.

7) She wants to buy something and has money. He is not willing to sell her anything. Alizon does not understand why as she has the money.

8) Yes, I think he wanted her for himself. I think he wanted her to give herself to him. I think he thought that she would. I was not fooled. I thought that he wanted her for himself and if he could not have her no one would.

These are my thoughts. I love your questions Debbie. They are really good and make us think and gives us some good things to talk about and we get good answers to them.

I like how each of us look at the book and what we thought about it.

ReadingPatti

[dhaupt]

Patti and Karen thank you for your comments

[avalonpriestess]

1. Betty and Anne were blamed for the tragedies of John's death and the crop/livestock loss because there was no other way for the people of the time to understand these events.  The supernatural was a scapegoat for just about any unhappy events.  It was easier for the families and general population to blame the 'witches'.

2. Alizon does love her family but I think she feels somewhat superior because she is normal.  I also think she truly loves the Holden's, not only because they have money, but because they treat her as one of them.

3. Her aversion to becoming a 'cunning woman' is related to her fear of being different.  She rejects her abilities and refused her 'familiar'.

4. Religious persecution has been part of our history and will continue to be part of our future. 

Look around the world today, are we any different now than in 1601?  We have better toys, more technology and more frightening weapons but we (as a people) are still afraid of others who are different. 

5.I think Alizon refuses her familiar because she is afraid to be different. She's tasted life with the Holden's and she enjoys it.  

6.Jamie has some kind of mental challenge. I don't think he knows or understands the enormity of what is happening around him.  He cares in his own simple way.

7. Alizon's run in with the peddler both angers and frightens her.  She has worked so hard to be considered 'normal' and to have a stranger think otherwise of her angers her greatly.  I think she is also frightened by her anger and her response to the peddlers attitude.

8. Roger Newell was an interesting character.  I think he was aware of his relationship to Bess and Alizon.  I think his ulterior motive for wanted them locked up was to prevent anyone from finding a possible connection to the 'witches'.  He wanted to advance in the new Protestant government and would have turned in his own mother if it came to it.

[avalonpriestess]

Sorry, forgot to leave my name at the end of my post,

Donna

[dhaupt]

HI Donna and thanks for your post

I agree with your sentiment that Alizon longs to be "normal" and she achieves that when she's with the Holdens.

Another thing that struck me was when Alizon sees her reflection in the mirror and thinks she's the painting of the elf queen. It lets us know just how lovely she is.

[Peppermill]

Donna -- do know that you can edit your posts for about 90 minutes after you enter them.  To do that, use the drop-down menu "Options" in the upper right corner.

Enjoyed your comments and at the moment have nothing to add to them, so will go and continue to work on "words."

Pepper

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avalonpriestess wrote:

Sorry, forgot to leave my name at the end of my post,

Donna

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[Fozzie]

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dhaupt wrote:

3. In chapter 11 Alizon appears to be coming into her powers even though she constantly insisting that she doesn’t want them. Are you surprised by her aversion of becoming a “cunning woman”?

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Not at all!  Being a cunning woman is both a privilege and a burden and carries much responsibility.  Each healing literally takes some life out of Bess.  Moreover, Bess must carefully walk a fine line --- balancing the need to support her family without breaking the law.  If I were Alizon, I would be avoiding my powers like the plague too.

[Fozzie]

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dhaupt wrote:

6. Bess and Alizon call Jamie out on his “evil behavior” as it’s noticed by not only Richard Baldwin but by Matthew Holden as well. The women tell Jamie that if he doesn’t stop it will literally be the death of them. Knowing Jamie like we do, do you think he knows the enormity of their warning, does he care.

---

I can't figure out Jamie.  I think he has powers and knows he does.  I think he knows Alizon has powers and wants her to use them.  I don't know that he fully grasps the danger his family could be in.  At the same time, I think he knows more than Alizon does, so he knows more than we,as readers, know too, at this point.  I think Jamie will have an important role in the third part of the book.

[Fozzie]

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dhaupt wrote:

7. Alizon’s run in with the peddler is really the turning point in the story, without revealing anything past this point, tell us why.

---

If I am recalling correctly, it is the first time Alizon uses her powers.  Maybe more importantly, it is also the first time she uses her powers without meaning to use them.  We saw this a bit with Jamie, or at least I think I did, because I had originally assumed that he didn't know what he was doing with his powers.  Now I am backing off that thought, thinking Jamie does know more than he lets on.  Alizon, up until this point, didn't realize she could unleash her powers without making a conscious effort to do so.  Now she realizes just how careful she must be with her thoughts and emotions. 

Also, and maybe more importantly, it is this run in that causes her to be accused of witchcraft.

[dhaupt]

Thanks for your comments Laura.

The more I read the novel the more I thanked God I didn't live in that time.

[Fozzie]

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dhaupt wrote:

8. Roger Newell really fooled Alizon into compliancy with his false fatherly attitude when all he wanted was her charged with witchcraft. He fooled me too, how about you. Do you think he had an ulterior motive for wanting her locked up.

---

I trusted Nowell on page 239, when he suggested that Alizon tell the truth to the Laws.

When Alizon, Jamie, and their mother were taken to Read Hall for questioning I became suspicious.  When Jamie and Mam were let go, I had a brief period of hope.  However, when Nowell sent the other two men out of the room and plied Alizon with food and drink, I knew he was up to no good.

I haven't figure out what Nowell's motives are, yet.  I assume we will find out as the book progresses. 

I am worried by the title of the next section --- By Stick and Stake.  Yikes!  I fear burning at the stake...

[Fozzie]

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avalonpriestess wrote:

1. Betty and Anne were blamed for the tragedies of John's death and the crop/livestock loss because there was no other way for the people of the time to understand these events.  The supernatural was a scapegoat for just about any unhappy events.  It was easier for the families and general population to blame the 'witches'.

---

Yes.  As I read about the famines and the illnesses that people came down with, and died from, it was quite easy for me to understand what really happened --- cyclical weather, fevers, pneumonia, flu, stroke, etc.  However, the lack of scientific knowledge at the time, and the lack of any education of any people but a few, led to the false accusations.

[Mountain_Muse]

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Fozzie wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

7. Alizon’s run in with the peddler is really the turning point in the story, without revealing anything past this point, tell us why.

---

If I am recalling correctly, it is the first time Alizon uses her powers.  Maybe more importantly, it is also the first time she uses her powers without meaning to use them.  We saw this a bit with Jamie, or at least I think I did, because I had originally assumed that he didn't know what he was doing with his powers.  Now I am backing off that thought, thinking Jamie does know more than he lets on.  Alizon, up until this point, didn't realize she could unleash her powers without making a conscious effort to do so.  Now she realizes just how careful she must be with her thoughts and emotions. 

Also, and maybe more importantly, it is this run in that causes her to be accused of witchcraft.

Mtn_Muse  said

 It wasn't until she was a teenager and she had the encounter with Chattox and the great black dog came out of nowhere that she remembered that her brother had identified her familiar as a black dog.  (pg 146) My friend thought that the beast was Chattox's familiar, as had I first off. But no. That creature was mine. 

Alizon didn't understand why the familiar had come to her.  On her way home (pg 147) Issy Bulcock's words rang out "Witch's blood!  Witch's blood!  I'd told her off, then a fever struck her down and only Gran could raise her again.  Did that made me a witch, no better than Chattox?"

Then finally on pg 148 she prayed all the way home that God would deliver her from having Witch blood.  

With this background,  The turning point for the story wasn't because this was the first time she used her powers....she had been using the "prayers" and "charms" since she was a little girl, under her gran's instruction.  She had realized back at the time of the encounter with Chaddox that she had inadvertantly cursed at least one person prior to that point and she DID have the blood.

It was the encounter with the pedlar where she lost her temper, knew what she was doing and could not stop it.  It was also the only time when someone could actually point at HER.  There was no one else around to blame.  Then she also admitted it freely  with the statements of apology  when she called them men from the road to help.

Would her good heart ultimately lead to her demise?

Mtn_Muse

[Fozzie]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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Fozzie wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

7. Alizon’s run in with the peddler is really the turning point in the story, without revealing anything past this point, tell us why.

---

If I am recalling correctly, it is the first time Alizon uses her powers.  Maybe more importantly, it is also the first time she uses her powers without meaning to use them.  We saw this a bit with Jamie, or at least I think I did, because I had originally assumed that he didn't know what he was doing with his powers.  Now I am backing off that thought, thinking Jamie does know more than he lets on.  Alizon, up until this point, didn't realize she could unleash her powers without making a conscious effort to do so.  Now she realizes just how careful she must be with her thoughts and emotions. 

Also, and maybe more importantly, it is this run in that causes her to be accused of witchcraft.

Mtn_Muse  said

 It wasn't until she was a teenager and she had the encounter with Chattox and the great black dog came out of nowhere that she remembered that her brother had identified her familiar as a black dog.  (pg 146) My friend thought that the beast was Chattox's familiar, as had I first off. But no. That creature was mine. 

Alizon didn't understand why the familiar had come to her.  On her way home (pg 147) Issy Bulcock's words rang out "Witch's blood!  Witch's blood!  I'd told her off, then a fever struck her down and only Gran could raise her again.  Did that made me a witch, no better than Chattox?"

Then finally on pg 148 she prayed all the way home that God would deliver her from having Witch blood.  

With this background,  The turning point for the story wasn't because this was the first time she used her powers....she had been using the "prayers" and "charms" since she was a little girl, under her gran's instruction.  She had realized back at the time of the encounter with Chaddox that she had inadvertently cursed at least one person prior to that point and she DID have the blood.

It was the encounter with the pedlar where she lost her temper, knew what she was doing and could not stop it.  It was also the only time when someone could actually point at HER.  There was no one else around to blame.  Then she also admitted it freely  with the statements of apology  when she called them men from the road to help.

Would her good heart ultimately lead to her demise?

Mtn_Muse

---

This paragraph on page 226 led to my thinking:

"The powers had been with me all along.  Hadn't I both cursed and then helped cure Issy Bulcock?  Gran and even Jamie had tried to tell me, only I' refused to see the truth.  Blinder than my grandmother, I'd been.  And now it was too late."

I agree that this wasn't the first time that Alizon used her powers, but it seems to be the first time she admitted that she used them.  However, I don't think she knew what she was doing.  Yes, there was the red haze to warn her, and she certainly cursed the peddler and "could not rein in [her] fury," but I think she was caught up in the heat of the moment and didn't realize what she was doing until it was too late. 

[Mountain_Muse]

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Fozzie wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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Fozzie wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

7. Alizon’s run in with the peddler is really the turning point in the story, without revealing anything past this point, tell us why.

---

If I am recalling correctly, it is the first time Alizon uses her powers.  Maybe more importantly, it is also the first time she uses her powers without meaning to use them.  We saw this a bit with Jamie, or at least I think I did, because I had originally assumed that he didn't know what he was doing with his powers.  Now I am backing off that thought, thinking Jamie does know more than he lets on.  Alizon, up until this point, didn't realize she could unleash her powers without making a conscious effort to do so.  Now she realizes just how careful she must be with her thoughts and emotions. 

Also, and maybe more importantly, it is this run in that causes her to be accused of witchcraft.

Mtn_Muse  said

 It wasn't until she was a teenager and she had the encounter with Chattox and the great black dog came out of nowhere that she remembered that her brother had identified her familiar as a black dog.  (pg 146) My friend thought that the beast was Chattox's familiar, as had I first off. But no. That creature was mine. 

Alizon didn't understand why the familiar had come to her.  On her way home (pg 147) Issy Bulcock's words rang out "Witch's blood!  Witch's blood!  I'd told her off, then a fever struck her down and only Gran could raise her again.  Did that made me a witch, no better than Chattox?"

Then finally on pg 148 she prayed all the way home that God would deliver her from having Witch blood.  

With this background,  The turning point for the story wasn't because this was the first time she used her powers....she had been using the "prayers" and "charms" since she was a little girl, under her gran's instruction.  She had realized back at the time of the encounter with Chaddox that she had inadvertently cursed at least one person prior to that point and she DID have the blood.

It was the encounter with the pedlar where she lost her temper, knew what she was doing and could not stop it.  It was also the only time when someone could actually point at HER.  There was no one else around to blame.  Then she also admitted it freely  with the statements of apology  when she called them men from the road to help.

Would her good heart ultimately lead to her demise?

Mtn_Muse

---

This paragraph on page 226 led to my thinking:

"The powers had been with me all along.  Hadn't I both cursed and then helped cure Issy Bulcock?  Gran and even Jamie had tried to tell me, only I' refused to see the truth.  Blinder than my grandmother, I'd been.  And now it was too late."

I agree that this wasn't the first time that Alizon used her powers, but it seems to be the first time she admitted that she used them.  However, I don't think she knew what she was doing.  Yes, there was the red haze to warn her, and she certainly cursed the peddler and "could not rein in [her] fury," but I think she was caught up in the heat of the moment and didn't realize what she was doing until it was too late. 

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Mtn Muse:

I agree with you Fozzie, she was well into her temper and "curse" when she realized the import of what she was doing and couldn't seem to get control and pull back.  How many of us have done something likewise (not magic) but let our temper or "mouth" get the better of us and regret it before we even stop?  The regret and remorse are immense.  I think that is exactly what she was going through here.  My question is:  Why do we refuse to see or acknowledge what we don't want to know about ourselves?  If she had been willing to acknowledge her "heritage" and "inheritance" do you think the scene would have read differently?

[dhaupt]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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Fozzie wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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Fozzie wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

7. Alizon’s run in with the peddler is really the turning point in the story, without revealing anything past this point, tell us why.

---

If I am recalling correctly, it is the first time Alizon uses her powers.  Maybe more importantly, it is also the first time she uses her powers without meaning to use them.  We saw this a bit with Jamie, or at least I think I did, because I had originally assumed that he didn't know what he was doing with his powers.  Now I am backing off that thought, thinking Jamie does know more than he lets on.  Alizon, up until this point, didn't realize she could unleash her powers without making a conscious effort to do so.  Now she realizes just how careful she must be with her thoughts and emotions. 

Also, and maybe more importantly, it is this run in that causes her to be accused of witchcraft.

Mtn_Muse  said

 It wasn't until she was a teenager and she had the encounter with Chattox and the great black dog came out of nowhere that she remembered that her brother had identified her familiar as a black dog.  (pg 146) My friend thought that the beast was Chattox's familiar, as had I first off. But no. That creature was mine. 

Alizon didn't understand why the familiar had come to her.  On her way home (pg 147) Issy Bulcock's words rang out "Witch's blood!  Witch's blood!  I'd told her off, then a fever struck her down and only Gran could raise her again.  Did that made me a witch, no better than Chattox?"

Then finally on pg 148 she prayed all the way home that God would deliver her from having Witch blood.  

With this background,  The turning point for the story wasn't because this was the first time she used her powers....she had been using the "prayers" and "charms" since she was a little girl, under her gran's instruction.  She had realized back at the time of the encounter with Chaddox that she had inadvertently cursed at least one person prior to that point and she DID have the blood.

It was the encounter with the pedlar where she lost her temper, knew what she was doing and could not stop it.  It was also the only time when someone could actually point at HER.  There was no one else around to blame.  Then she also admitted it freely  with the statements of apology  when she called them men from the road to help.

Would her good heart ultimately lead to her demise?

Mtn_Muse

---

This paragraph on page 226 led to my thinking:

"The powers had been with me all along.  Hadn't I both cursed and then helped cure Issy Bulcock?  Gran and even Jamie had tried to tell me, only I' refused to see the truth.  Blinder than my grandmother, I'd been.  And now it was too late."

I agree that this wasn't the first time that Alizon used her powers, but it seems to be the first time she admitted that she used them.  However, I don't think she knew what she was doing.  Yes, there was the red haze to warn her, and she certainly cursed the peddler and "could not rein in [her] fury," but I think she was caught up in the heat of the moment and didn't realize what she was doing until it was too late. 

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Mtn Muse:

I agree with you Fozzie, she was well into her temper and "curse" when she realized the import of what she was doing and couldn't seem to get control and pull back.  How many of us have done something likewise (not magic) but let our temper or "mouth" get the better of us and regret it before we even stop?  The regret and remorse are immense.  I think that is exactly what she was going through here.  My question is:  Why do we refuse to see or acknowledge what we don't want to know about ourselves?  If she had been willing to acknowledge her "heritage" and "inheritance" do you think the scene would have read differently?

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That's a great question Karen, but also remember how young she is and all her life she's been an outcast and here all she wants are some pins for her hair and she's blindsided by this act of humiliation and she just acts.

I don't know if having accepted her fate would have changed the outcome of this encounter.

Ideas?

[Fozzie]

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dhaupt wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

I agree with you Fozzie, she was well into her temper and "curse" when she realized the import of what she was doing and couldn't seem to get control and pull back.  How many of us have done something likewise (not magic) but let our temper or "mouth" get the better of us and regret it before we even stop?  The regret and remorse are immense.  I think that is exactly what she was going through here.  My question is:  Why do we refuse to see or acknowledge what we don't want to know about ourselves?  If she had been willing to acknowledge her "heritage" and "inheritance" do you think the scene would have read differently?

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That's a great question Karen, but also remember how young she is and all her life she's been an outcast and here all she wants are some pins for her hair and she's blindsided by this act of humiliation and she just acts.

I don't know if having accepted her fate would have changed the outcome of this encounter.

Ideas?

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I think it is a form of protection for ourselves to refuse to see or acknowledge what we know to be true about ourselves, if it is not something we want for ourselves.  If Alizon had more experience with her powers, the scene could have turned out differently.  I agree that age had a lot to do with how Alizon reacted.

[Mountain_Muse]

Mountain_Muse wrote:

  My question is:  Why do we refuse to see or acknowledge what we don't want to know about ourselves?  If she had been willing to acknowledge her "heritage" and "inheritance" do you think the scene would have read differently?

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That's a great question Karen, but also remember how young she is and all her life she's been an outcast and here all she wants are some pins for her hair and she's blindsided by this act of humiliation and she just acts.

I don't know if having accepted her fate would have changed the outcome of this encounter.

Ideas?

---

I think it is a form of protection for ourselves to refuse to see or acknowledge what we know to be true about ourselves, if it is not something we want for ourselves.  If Alizon had more experience with her powers, the scene could have turned out differently.  I agree that age had a lot to do with how Alizon reacted.

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Fozzie,

I think you hit it when you said "if Alizon had more experience with her powers, the scene could have turned out differently."  and Yes, Deb, I agree, age and maturity played a great deal on how she dealt (or lack of) with her reaction to the pedlar.

My next question, then, is what part did the Black Dog play in the scene?  I couldn't quite lock that one down?  Did she make things worse?  Was she the one that actually caused the stroke?  Was the black dog there for literary reasons?  Help!

Mtn Muse