whiteginger wrote:
elaine_hf wrote:I'm ready! For once, I'm right on top of this one, and it's been an exciting read. Thanks, Deb, for choosing this one.
.
3. Faves? Not sure, I do like Sam, and Eleanor - maybe even a little more on the Eleanor side. Susan is a little more difficult, but by the end of Part One I've come to like her a little bit more, and maybe Sam a little bit less. The pen thing was the trigger for me, she didn't need to mention it - does she always have to insert her 'I was here first' thing??
The fountain pen moment! You and I both zeroed in on it, but with different reactions.
I am having a bit of a hard time understanding why Sam "settled" for going back to Nashville and her "safe" life with a "safe" husband. That does tend to make me feel she is a bit hypocritical, but I thought the pen comment was an honest slip. When she mentally acknowledges that she shouldn't have said it, but doesn't stumble all over herself trying to apologize (knowing it would only make things worse and perhaps not really wanting to apologize either), I liked her better!
That's so funny! I agree, if she had attempted to apologize it would have made things worse, but I still think that, in agreeing to come and do the second autopsy, she owed it to Eddie's family to put her feelings in the background. After all, it had been years since her involvement with Eddie, and he had a more immediate, personal family that needed the time and space to grieve. Of course, it was an honest mistake, I just think she needs to regain some focus.
whiteginger wrote:
Catherine111 wrote:
First Impressions of Sam: I’m still a little undecided about Sam. She is professional and really good at her job. . . . I agree with elaine_hf that she can be insensitive to Susan (the pen thing irritated me quite a bit).
Oh, dear! I am alone!
I think Eleanor is just 'catching up' with Sam, as they don't see each other on a regular basis. So, Eleanor buys special whisky, invites Sam to stay with her, etc., all of which would normally be seen as just being a good hostess, but these are special, difficult circumstances and Susan sees it as favoritism. Susan deserves the spotlight, but there are so many things going on. Agree, Susan set the stage, but there must be some history between her and Eddie that led her to feel that Sam was still very important to him. And I think that, under these circumstances, Susan has made big, quick strides to come to terms with a lot of new information....and then the fountain pen incident!! 
whiteginger wrote:
dhaupt wrote:
WhiteGinger wrote:
. . . (Don't know why I'm mentioning this, but Nocek is the only character I've formed a clear physical impression of thus far. Great description of him!) . . .
ginger, . . .
And Nocek you're spot on about, do you think it was deliberate, so that she keeps us in the dark about the other characters so to speak, or is he just that much of an oddity.
of course anyone can answer this.
It's gonna be a great month
Interesting thought, Deb. When I get too much physical description of a character too soon, it does affect my view of the character's personality. I get locked into some stereotype I associate with the physical description and I tend to expect the character to either fit that stereotype or be the exact opposite. Then I overlook little details in the character that hint at all the various shades of grey we all have in our personalities; I try to force all the details into one of my preconceived pictures of the character.
Whether fewer physical descriptive details about the main characters was deliberate or subconscious . . . hmmm . . . don't know, but I'm glad it happened that way because Nocek is already stereotyped in my mind and everyone else is more complex. (Now when Nocek becomes a major player or turns out to be the killer or something, I guess I'll have to reevaluate my thinking!
)
Deb (and anyone else who has read the previous series) here's one for you: you say that Sam, as the major character in this new series, is different now-- dealing with personal loss and leaving Nashville, her safety net. Did the difference really surprise you? Or do you still see lots of evidence of the "old Sam" even at this transition point, this low point in her life? Just curious. I like her now and expect to like her better by the end of the book.
ginger, I have to admit that I knew LONG before most that JT was writing this new series and that she was showcasing Sam, and I knew that in the Taylor Jackson series Sam was this powerhouse, well put together, happily married w/children, take no prisoners kind of woman and I knew that to star in her own series that she would have to undergo some sort of life change but what JT did to bring her into this new role just FLOORED me, am I surprised by Sam's reaction to her before/after life, no. It was the circumstances that surprised me and JT's amazing imagination and how she puts Sam back together that was the surprise.
Once you and the others here read JT's other series we'll have to re-investigate Sam, we'll have a mini reunion.
Okay, he who comes late misses the appetizer and first course....geez...you guys have been busy.... Do I read through it all and just respond or do I give my initial reactions and then go back and read and respond.... a very hard choice.
I think I will respond and then re-act, as I know my visceral reactions to the story were deep and emotional as Sam dealt with all that was happening. Sooooooo.... two posts.
So see below...
Muse
dhaupt wrote:A Deeper Darkness As you who know me know that JT is one of my favs and I'm so glad I get to share her with all of you this month to see why I value highly her writing, her characters and especially her friendship.
Week One here we come
A Deeper Darkness
Week One
The author starts the novel giving us snippets into the lives of her characters, not giving too much away but she also gives us the foundation of the novel, the death of Eddie Donovan and his mother’s call for help to Sam.
- First thoughts
OMG, what a story. As a lover of NCIS and BONES and a plethora of other such shows, JT married the best of my dream worlds and dunk me deep into the throes of the emotions, and mental processes of a great mind who was trying to deal with an emotional crisis in a clinical manor by burying herself deep in her work. But at the same time I can feel the tightening vortex of the whirl towards loosing control as she gets sucked into the nightmare of the second emotional crisis of the lose of her long lost first love.
This is stuff that the big screen just can't quite get across. JT, you had me close to the stomach sobs a few times....you know those that start in the gut and heave and you can't catch your breath? We had friends caught in that Nashville flood and were in Nashville not long after the flood.
- Your first impression of Sam
Sam is past "on the edge"" she is past staying in control, but doesn't know it. But in spite of her emotional state, her mental capacity to analyze and step back to "see" the picture shows why she is who she is and why she is so highly regarded in her field. On the other hand, she is so fragile. she has become OCD in some respects, just in trying to maintain control. AND even though her life is a wreck, she avails herself to others and their needs before her needs.... I felt her pain, JT did a fabulous job of conveying the internal battle and angst. YOu could feel her slipping over the edge and then pulling herself back to terra firma to get a grip and keep going because there were things that needed to be done. This was a woman of strength -- mental and emotional. But how much longer will she be able to hold on?
- Do you have any favorite characters yet
Sam, hands down. One I am interested in finding out more about? The detective's ex-wife. There's a story there.
- How do you like the author’s telling of the story
I'm in, hook, line, and sinker. It took all I had to put the book down....I mean click the "close" button on my NOok. I knew I could NOT sneak ahead on this one, for there would be no turning back and because of the emotional tenor of the story, reading ahead would definitely affect my discussion. So..... sitting tight. (borrowed Fred's old cuffs to help out) Lol
- Now let’s talk about the case itself, do you have any insights yet into why the murders were committed.
DUH. Someone dun sumpthin they shudna. My gut is that the new boss had the team carry out a mission for the Government that went bad or was a true "black out" op and not something that the military could do because it was illegal and they did not react well on debriefing when they returned. OR
Something that he was doing for his new boss uncovered something that happened (not a good or moral result) as a result of a mission by his unit when he was in the service. He told his unit and they wanted to make things right and the boss (contractor) was actually in on it from the beginning and they had to be quieted so the brass and the politicals in DC wouldn't loose their shorts. At least that's where my money goes....for the moment. We will see where evidence takes us in the next section.
- How do you feel about the detectives on the case
How many of you didn’t stop at part one
Hand-cuffs Remember? I'm holding out, want to enjoy the discussion.
Muse
whiteginger wrote:
elaine_hf wrote:I'm ready! For once, I'm right on top of this one, and it's been an exciting read. Thanks, Deb, for choosing this one.
.
3. Faves? Not sure, I do like Sam, and Eleanor - maybe even a little more on the Eleanor side. Susan is a little more difficult, but by the end of Part One I've come to like her a little bit more, and maybe Sam a little bit less. The pen thing was the trigger for me, she didn't need to mention it - does she always have to insert her 'I was here first' thing??
The fountain pen moment! You and I both zeroed in on it, but with different reactions.
I
I saw that comment, too. I don't think she said that consciously. It was almost like she was thinking, but it came out, outloud. But then, there was no way to take it back. Didn't you feel like she felt bad about saying it? I had that sense. Like you both, I was like, "Why did you say that?" It was hurtful.
But then it took me back to something that Susan said....Nook isn't handy so will have to find it and come back with the quote. But she made a comment to either Sam or Eleanor that she always felt like she was the second choice, that Donovan never quit loving her....that pen just re-enforced that feeling for both her and Sam.
Just saying
Muse
Catherine111 wrote:
dhaupt wrote:
Catherine111 wrote:
JT_Ellison wrote:
Sam is such a different character in this book than she ever was in the Taylor novels, so I hope you'll take a look into her past, her before.This is a definite for me. I am already planning on reading the Taylor novels. This is the first book I have read of yours, and I am already a fan.
I get worried when the character's creator joins the discussion. I don't want to be too critical, since they belong to you. But maybe we should be criticizing Donovan instead of Sam? Grief often causes people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. I've been married 14 years and I still get jealous when my husband mentions an old girlfriend. If he had remnants of her around him, I would feel like second choice like Susan. But with the very little we have seen of Donovan, I actually like the guy. I hope whatever is in his past doesn't disappoint the women grieving him (or us).
I do love Fletcher. He is exactly what I want my detective to be!
Catherine you brought up a very valid point here about grief and blame and jealousy, in fact it reminds me of a story that happened early in my marriage.
My husband and I along w/ my mom and dad went to a New Year's Eve event where this woman kept coming on to my husband, everyone thought it was funny except me.
The next day (my husband's still asleep) I get a phone call from a female who says she's this woman, I throw the phone at my husband's head and leave the room.
Turns out it was my sister, my father thought it would be funny, no need to tell you I did not "get" the joke and did not speak to my dad or my sister for days afterward. My husband (of 33 years) still chuckles about it. I still don't
Wow, Deb, thanks for sharing this story! That is really wild.
Lol, Deb and Catherine. I'm right there with you. After hearing about the "Great and beautiful Catherine" (sorry Catherine) for 10 years, I finally met her at the 15th Class reunion ... all I have to say is "That's who you were talking about?" ROFLOL....
But back to Donovan.... in his defense. I can understand leaving a relationship without closure. It leaves you hanging. The heart doesn't quite let go....even for years. Even if you are happily married. There is always that first love that you walked away from. Why did you do that? What if you hadn't? Where are they now? Are they happy? What if you hadn't walked away? Took 30 plus years, but finally got the answers....it was quite interesting that we had lived quite parallel lives and were both happily married, but still remembered--- fondly. I was able to turn and walk away again, happy with my final choice and happier with who I have. (Deb, I think you've read a bit of that one )
But even with the choices of love gone awry, Donovan seems to be a man of character and a man who cared greatly for his family and appears to have loved his wife. AS to his secret life....we are waiting for section 2.
Muse
Mountain_Muse wrote:
Okay, he who comes late misses the appetizer and first course....geez...you guys have been busy.... Do I read through it all and just respond or do I give my initial reactions and then go back and read and respond.... a very hard choice.I think I will respond and then re-act, as I know my visceral reactions to the story were deep and emotional as Sam dealt with all that was happening. Sooooooo.... two posts.So see below...Muse
dhaupt wrote:
A Deeper Darkness As you who know me know that JT is one of my favs and I'm so glad I get to share her with all of you this month to see why I value highly her writing, her characters and especially her friendship.
Week One here we come
A Deeper Darkness
Week One
The author starts the novel giving us snippets into the lives of her characters, not giving too much away but she also gives us the foundation of the novel, the death of Eddie Donovan and his mother’s call for help to Sam.
- First thoughts
OMG, what a story. As a lover of NCIS and BONES and a plethora of other such shows, JT married the best of my dream worlds and dunk me deep into the throes of the emotions, and mental processes of a great mind who was trying to deal with an emotional crisis in a clinical manor by burying herself deep in her work. But at the same time I can feel the tightening vortex of the whirl towards loosing control as she gets sucked into the nightmare of the second emotional crisis of the lose of her long lost first love.
This is stuff that the big screen just can't quite get across. JT, you had me close to the stomach sobs a few times....you know those that start in the gut and heave and you can't catch your breath? We had friends caught in that Nashville flood and were in Nashville not long after the flood.
- Your first impression of Sam
Sam is past "on the edge"" she is past staying in control, but doesn't know it. But in spite of her emotional state, her mental capacity to analyze and step back to "see" the picture shows why she is who she is and why she is so highly regarded in her field. On the other hand, she is so fragile. she has become OCD in some respects, just in trying to maintain control. AND even though her life is a wreck, she avails herself to others and their needs before her needs.... I felt her pain, JT did a fabulous job of conveying the internal battle and angst. YOu could feel her slipping over the edge and then pulling herself back to terra firma to get a grip and keep going because there were things that needed to be done. This was a woman of strength -- mental and emotional. But how much longer will she be able to hold on?
- Do you have any favorite characters yet
Sam, hands down. One I am interested in finding out more about? The detective's ex-wife. There's a story there.
- How do you like the author’s telling of the story
I'm in, hook, line, and sinker. It took all I had to put the book down....I mean click the "close" button on my NOok. I knew I could NOT sneak ahead on this one, for there would be no turning back and because of the emotional tenor of the story, reading ahead would definitely affect my discussion. So..... sitting tight. (borrowed Fred's old cuffs to help out) Lol
- Now let’s talk about the case itself, do you have any insights yet into why the murders were committed.
DUH. Someone dun sumpthin they shudna. My gut is that the new boss had the team carry out a mission for the Government that went bad or was a true "black out" op and not something that the military could do because it was illegal and they did not react well on debriefing when they returned. OR
Something that he was doing for his new boss uncovered something that happened (not a good or moral result) as a result of a mission by his unit when he was in the service. He told his unit and they wanted to make things right and the boss (contractor) was actually in on it from the beginning and they had to be quieted so the brass and the politicals in DC wouldn't loose their shorts. At least that's where my money goes....for the moment. We will see where evidence takes us in the next section.
- How do you feel about the detectives on the case
How many of you didn’t stop at part one
Hand-cuffs Remember? I'm holding out, want to enjoy the discussion.
Muse
Thanks Muse, I love your comments
nuf said
Oh my! Muse was right: we've been busy! I've read back through all the comments. So much I want to say . . . and ask. Here goes (and although this will be lengthy, I'm sure I'll still miss something)
Hand Washing:
april wrote: At this point, I'm assuming that Sam's hand-washing is some form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I think the only way she can cope with the death of her family, is by constantly washing her hands, to the point where they bleed.
elaine wrote: I've also been pondering the reasoning behind the hand washing, and I wonder if it isn't something symbolic. Flooding her hands with water...the flood took her family....a way to be constantly reminded of her loss and her love for those who were 'washed away'. Without the washing ritual, she doesn't seem particularly OCD, and that ritual began after the flood. And it seems, although I need to go back and double check, that she feels most compelled to flood her hands when she's put in situations that remind her of her family. I don't know if that kind of thing is always a trigger for an OCD event, but I think it's significant.
OCD. That's the condition I couldn't think of, April! And washing to the point of bleeding! [Involuntary shudder, again] Elaine gets to the heart of what I was really thinking about--What's the symbolism? The trigger? Then Muse(?) mentions Pontius Pilate's washing his hands of guilt and death. Sam does say several times that she now hates her job (all that death! [Involuntary shudder, again]. )
About Sam
april wrote: I think Sam's inability to let herself grieve is something she has inflicted upon herself. I think she is afraid that if she lets her grief out in the open that she will somehow lose all ties to her family, that all the memories she has of them will disappear.
ann wrote: She has kept such a tight rein on herself, until this point, I'm not sure how much she will allow herself to accept and move on.
Deb wrote: in the Taylor Jackson series Sam was this powerhouse, well put together, happily married w/children, take no prisoners kind of woman and I knew that to star in her own series that she would have to undergo some sort of life change but what JT did to bring her into this new role just FLOORED me. . . .
catherine wrote: DO NOT go on J.T. Ellison's website until you finish the book. Dang. I went on there and read something I should not have!
Catherine, thank you for saving me! Deb and JT have me intrigued with Sam and I was going to do some background research. (But I have to know: Was it something about Sam or something about the crime? [If I were a cat, I wouldn't last 24 hours! ] )
About Fletcher (or related to Fletcher)
muse wrote: [A character] I am interested in finding out more about? The detective's ex-wife. There's a story there.
Wow! Yes! I wonder what kind of relationship (if any at all) the ex-wife and Sam will establish??
The Crime
The little girls--birthday girl (Jen sees gun fire flashes in the house across the street when Croswell is shot) and Donovan's daughter (A. sees someone in the ball cap outside her school window)--both have clues, have seen things that the adults ignore. I like the subtle repetition of that format.
The family across the street from the Croswell murder house. Who are they? What's their connection? Why does the mother have a "bug-out" bag already packed? Why does the family leave when mom learns that Croswell has been murdered? What's the connection? (Did I miss something or is all this unknown at the end of part I?)
*Darn it! OK, Catherine, here's my mistake--I did a search on my NOOK to find Jen's name and accidently went to a page in Part II. I, too, have now found out info I shouldn't have!
whiteginger wrote:
The Crime
The little girls--birthday girl (Jen sees gun fire flashes in the house across the street when Croswell is shot) and Donovan's daughter (A. sees someone in the ball cap outside her school window)--both have clues, have seen things that the adults ignore. I like the subtle repetition of that format.
The family across the street from the Croswell murder house. Who are they? What's their connection? Why does the mother have a "bug-out" bag already packed? Why does the family leave when mom learns that Croswell has been murdered? What's the connection? (Did I miss something or is all this unknown at the end of part I?)
Oh Ginger,
Yes, Yes!, Yes!!, Yes!!!....is that appropriate to say on this sight? The Clues, ah the Clues! I am beginning to think we need to start a list of the clues. They are so many and sooooo suttle. All the levels, all the interweaving stories. Each one so intriguing in it's own way, but so important to the whole.
I wanted to yell at the adults to LISTEN!!!! Why don't adults listen to kids? Why don't they believe kids? Kids can be and are sooooo observant. They see what we overlook and/or take forgranted. They aren't pre-occupied by the cares of life so that they miss what is going on in life around them in the here and now.
I learned this the hard way a time or two when the kids were growing up...The two worst times were around snakes "Mom, there's a BIG worm out on the patio", I look out, I don't see any worms "MOM, you have to come see, there's a BIG worm on the patio!" How big? "THIS BIG!!!!!" Okay show me. I step outside and walk onto the patio. He stops and points behind me. A big 4ft snake is stretched out underneath the back door against the wall. YUP! A REAL BIGGG WORM.
I've got a feeling we are going to find more than a BIG WORM lurking out there in this story. WOW JT. Your story is rockin. I'm not getting much sleep either. My Nook is under lock and key till the end of the week.
Muse
Mountain_Muse wrote:I learned this the hard way a time or two when the kids were growing up...The two worst times were around snakes "Mom, there's a BIG worm out on the patio", I look out, I don't see any worms "MOM, you have to come see, there's a BIG worm on the patio!" How big? "THIS BIG!!!!!" Okay show me. I step outside and walk onto the patio. He stops and points behind me. A big 4ft snake is stretched out underneath the back door against the wall. YUP! A REAL BIGGG WORM.
I've got a feeling we are going to find more than a BIG WORM lurking out there in this story. WOW JT. Your story is rockin. I'm not getting much sleep either. My Nook is under lock and key till the end of the week.
Muse
Too Funny! (This is a worm gif; I don't like snakes!)
BTW--I'm not waiting until the end of the week: I'm starting Part II tomorrow night!
whiteginger wrote:
Mountain_Muse wrote:
I learned this the hard way a time or two when the kids were growing up...The two worst times were around snakes "Mom, there's a BIG worm out on the patio", I look out, I don't see any worms "MOM, you have to come see, there's a BIG worm on the patio!" How big? "THIS BIG!!!!!" Okay show me. I step outside and walk onto the patio. He stops and points behind me. A big 4ft snake is stretched out underneath the back door against the wall. YUP! A REAL BIGGG WORM.
I've got a feeling we are going to find more than a BIG WORM lurking out there in this story. WOW JT. Your story is rockin. I'm not getting much sleep either. My Nook is under lock and key till the end of the week.
Muse
BTW--I'm not waiting until the end of the week: I'm starting Part II tomorrow night!
whiteginger wrote:catherine wrote: DO NOT go on J.T. Ellison's website until you finish the book. Dang. I went on there and read something I should not have!
Catherine, thank you for saving me! Deb and JT have me intrigued with Sam and I was going to do some background research. (But I have to know: Was it something about Sam or something about the crime? [If I were a cat, I wouldn't last 24 hours!
*Darn it! OK, Catherine, here's my mistake--I did a search on my NOOK to find Jen's name and accidently went to a page in Part II. I, too, have now found out info I shouldn't have!
The information I got on J T's website had something to do with Sam and the case! But it hasn't ruined the reading experience for me. I just would have rather not known until I finished the book! I was checking her Taylor Jackson books, and I went were I shouldn't have gone. I did purchase All The Pretty Girls. I think that is the first one. I'm afraid to look anywhere to confirm that!
