Week One Discussion of Bereft

[christopherw]

Great questions, Debbie. Thanks for inspiring such interest from your community. If anyone is interested in upcoming publications and so on, I actually have a Facebook Fan page which is accessible via my website at: chriswomersley.com

[aprilh]

My first thoughts on Quinn were that he was a hardened soul who had seen too much violence with the murder of his sister and his participation in the war. He had no one to trust and was forced to have his guard up at all times. I felt that on the outside he put up this tough demeanor, but deep down he was a caring, loving person. We see glimpses of this when he remembers the relationship he had with his sister, Sarah. He adored his little sister and I believe would have done anything for her. I really liked Quinn from the beginning and found that I couldn't buy into the the theory his dad and his uncle created, that he had killed his sister. I believe when his dad and uncle found him with the knife, he was in shock at the death of his sister and after his words were drowned out by the thunder, he became scared and his instinct was to run instead of speaking up for himself.

I knew of the flu epidemic, but not any of the details. The author did a good job setting the scene for us, showing us the panic people were faced with, not knowing who was infected and who might die. At this time, if you were infected, it could be mere days before you died and no one wanted to take any chances. Quinn's father could only speak with his wife through an open window since she became infected. He on the veranda, she in the house. With no cure, this must have been a scary time for all.

I think for Quinn, seeing his mother after all that time and just being able to speak his innocence out loud, was like a weight being lifted from his shoulders. When she believed him he must have felt like he could breathe again. Having just one person to believe in him must have made him feel like he wasn't completely alone anymore. For him to have suffered in silence for so long, knowing he could never go back home because people thought of him as a murderer must have been pure torture. The fact that he even came back after all that time was extremely brave of him and to me proved his innocence.

I wonder what Quinn's mother's reaction would have been to seeing her son after all this time if she hadn't been sick with the flu. When she first sees him, she thinks he is a ghost, because she had received a letter from the military stating he had died in the war. Quinn is sure that if she tells anyone she has seen him, they'll think she's hallucinating. It may have been harder for Quinn to face his mother again if she had been well. In her weak state, she wasn't intimidating and he may have felt it might be his last chance to speak with her if she were to die. Mary is a loving mother, who has suffered too much loss, with the murder of her daughter and the accusations surrounding her son. When Quinn tells his mother he did not murder his sister, she believes him immediately. She loves her son and believes the best of her children.

I've been good so far, reading with the schedule and I can't wait to find out what happens next. There are so many questions I still have that need answers.

[aprilh]

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whiteginger wrote:

I am intrigued by the portrait of Quinn’s father.  Although the father has unjustly accused Quinn of rape and murder, the father has not been portrayed as a complete villain.  I love how the father’s fascination with all things new and exotic is contrasted with his ethnic biases.  In the flashback of the father recording the children’s heights, Quinn seems to remember these as happy times; his father and mother were laughing, playful.  Quinn recalls specific details of the father’s interactions with his two siblings, but no details of his father’s interactions with him.  Quinn’s mother says that the father is changed since Sarah’s death, that the uncle has been of great help.  What about this uncle?  He is suspect to me.

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Whiteginger, I'm glad you brought up Quinn's uncle! Something about him just didn't sit right with me. I made a note to myself to watch him carefully. When Quinn's father finds Sarah murdered and Quinn holding the knife, "Robert Dalton appeared, huffing at that very moment." It was a little suspicious to me after reading how many places Nathaniel had looked trying to find his children. How did he find them in an abandoned shed if they were two miles from home? Was he also in on the search? It was also interesting that when the reporter came to town Dalton told him and anyone who would listen that there was something sinister between Quinn and Sarah. That seemed strange to me after getting a glimpse of Quinn's memories with his sister and how much he adored her. I can't put my finger on it just yet, but you're right, the uncle is definitely a suspect.

[Mountain_Muse]

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optic_i wrote:

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writerfire wrote:

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optic_i wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

The second time Quinn went back to spend time with his mother (Mary) they spent time reminescing about the past, about the good times.  It was during this interlude that we learned about who Mary was.  She was a wonderful match for her creative and vibrant husband.  She was widely read and didn't just read, but read to her family.  She was also a wonderful story teller and capitvated her children with stories.  She even turned the boring lessons into wonderful tales that captivated their interest.

But going back and looking once again at the rememberances of Quinn's father, even though he considered himself "forethinking" and was always wanting to try the newest contraption and idea, he was also superstitious.  One note that Quinn made was that once an idea lodged in his head and he locked on it he did not let it go...he was stubborn in that way.  

I have a feeling that this is going to play (in a major way) into how he reacts to the re-appearance of his son and his willingness to believe in Quinn's innocence after all these years of believing so completely in his guilt.

I have wondered at the ability of a person to be so open to new ideas, but at the same time be so closed to truth...hmmmmmm sounds like some politicians...But we won't go there... It's not part of this book (after all this is New Zealand).;

Muse   

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I also wondered about Quinn's father, why he was so quick to believe that his son could murder his sister. Yes it looked bad But still how could he just hang out at the bar in town with the reporters and town folk and listen to them condemn his son. I know Mary didn't want him to tell her any details either. It just seemed to me they weren't trying to hard to talk to each other when their son needed them.

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Odd I thought,  it was more like the father was talking himself into believing what he wanted or thought he seen. hmm.

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Yes ! That's what I thought too. I thought he didn't like it when Quinn spent so much time with his sister.

Optic

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I thought that, too, at first.  But --- then I went back and reread the section where Quinn was remembering his father when he was growing up.  Quinn said on page 41.  Yes, he did say when Quinn was 12 and Sarah 8 that their closeness was un-natural.  Quinn even referenced it as one of those things that he locked in on.  This is what I was referring to.  The fact once something or and idea "lodged in his father's imagination permanently and from which he could not be swayed."

The idea that Quinn had killed his sister I am afraid is one of those ideas.

As to Quinn's mother refusing to hear what happened, or to talk about it; at first it was denial.  But most likely eventually the shock became depression and lose.  Think back to her conversation with Quinn and the small tallisman she kept close of his and Sarah's.  Like most families who have lost children, it appears that there are signs of wear on the marriage.  It will be interesting to see more of what Chris has to say about it as the book goes along.

[Mountain_Muse]

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aprilh wrote:

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whiteginger wrote:

I am intrigued by the portrait of Quinn’s father.  Although the father has unjustly accused Quinn of rape and murder, the father has not been portrayed as a complete villain.  I love how the father’s fascination with all things new and exotic is contrasted with his ethnic biases.  In the flashback of the father recording the children’s heights, Quinn seems to remember these as happy times; his father and mother were laughing, playful.  Quinn recalls specific details of the father’s interactions with his two siblings, but no details of his father’s interactions with him.  Quinn’s mother says that the father is changed since Sarah’s death, that the uncle has been of great help.  What about this uncle?  He is suspect to me.

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Whiteginger, I'm glad you brought up Quinn's uncle! Something about him just didn't sit right with me. I made a note to myself to watch him carefully. When Quinn's father finds Sarah murdered and Quinn holding the knife, "Robert Dalton appeared, huffing at that very moment." It was a little suspicious to me after reading how many places Nathaniel had looked trying to find his children. How did he find them in an abandoned shed if they were two miles from home? Was he also in on the search? It was also interesting that when the reporter came to town Dalton told him and anyone who would listen that there was something sinister between Quinn and Sarah. That seemed strange to me after getting a glimpse of Quinn's memories with his sister and how much he adored her. I can't put my finger on it just yet, but you're right, the uncle is definitely a suspect.

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Ginger, April,

I agree with both of you.  Even though I have not read ahead I too have major suspicions, and did as soon as I saw him with the father.  But I have not voiced my opinions about him.  Let's suffice it to say if it looks like a rat, smells like a rat and acts like a rat... well it passes the rat test.

Muse

[writerfire]

Yes I had my own suspicions about the uncle.  I agree with the rat comment.

[thewanderingjew]

I agree with you. What I meant was that the idea of his murdering his sister was shocking to me, not that I believed he actually did it. Nothing about the children's relationship up until then, suggested he would do such a thing.

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

TWJ,

I am going to disagree with you on this.  I do not think he murdered his sister.  Just because people thought that a brother and sister were "too close" and it "wasn't natural", doesn't mean that anything was going on and that he would rape and kill her.  

In fact, I think he came upon the scene and was in a state of shock when his father came upon the same scene and Quinn (in state of shock)  ran...  he never stopped running.   Per my answers to question #2, I think Quinn illustrates classic symptoms of PTSD because of the murder of his sister.  (Did he witness it?)  Unable to deal with it and unable to deal (possibly) with who committed the murder he "checked out".

But.... the rest of what we see to date does not demonstrate his ability to kill in cold blood.

Muse

thewanderingjew wrote:

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn?

I was shocked that he would murder his much loved sister and wondered if there had been a rush to judgment, but then he ran away and didn't return which made him so suspect. Their relationship had been thought of as too close, so it made me wonder if he wasn't quite altogether.

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[thewanderingjew]

Wow, thank you. That compliment coming from you means a lot.

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dhaupt wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

The red button on Sarah's dress intrigued me. Historically, the color red and red amulets have been used to ward off evil.  It is mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Esau and Jacob, Perez and Zerah, also with Rahab. There are many other instances. Did anyone else notice this and wonder?

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TWJ You simply AMAZE me and I'm so glad that you're with us.

I never put the red button with that at all, but I wondered why the author made it stand out so much.

and now you've given me an ah ha moment

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[optic_i]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I agree with you. What I meant was that the idea of his murdering his sister was shocking to me, not that I believed he actually did it. Nothing about the children's relationship up until then, suggested he would do such a thing.

TWJ,

I am going to disagree with you on this.  I do not think he murdered his sister.  Just because people thought that a brother and sister were "too close" and it "wasn't natural", doesn't mean that anything was going on and that he would rape and kill her.  

In fact, I think he came upon the scene and was in a state of shock when his father came upon the same scene and Quinn (in state of shock)  ran...  he never stopped running.   Per my answers to question #2, I think Quinn illustrates classic symptoms of PTSD because of the murder of his sister.  (Did he witness it?)  Unable to deal with it and unable to deal (possibly) with who committed the murder he "checked out".

But.... the rest of what we see to date does not demonstrate his ability to kill in cold blood.

Muse

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 I agree with TWJ also, I saw nothing that would suggest Quinn wanted to kill his sister for any reason.

He loved being with her why would he kill her. 

Optic

[Mountain_Muse]

Gotcha. :-)  I think we are on the same page.

Muse

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I agree with you. What I meant was that the idea of his murdering his sister was shocking to me, not that I believed he actually did it. Nothing about the children's relationship up until then, suggested he would do such a thing.

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

TWJ,

[dhaupt]

Good morning everyone- again I can't stress enough how great the conversation is going

just an FYI I'll have a spoiler friendly thread up sometime at the end of the week so all of you biting your nails to spill the beans can finally do so, but please when you do don't stop commenting on the weekly threads as well.

Edie:  What?  You think we're meek or something?   - the last thing I would call us is meek

Muse I agree with the other comments that it was very insightful of you to say that Quinn's PTSD started with the "crime" and now we know by Chris's comments that's how he meant the trauma to begin

Chris- thanks for all of your comment, oh and thanks for the avian flu thought too

So then let's talk about Quinn's father- his character is only peripheral at this point but lets hear your thoughts on him as well  

I'll close this morning with Quinn's first visit to Sarah's grave "His immense grief was precisely why he had not visited until now."

[thewanderingjew]

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You are quite right.. PTSD should not be thought of as a violent reaction, it is just that those are the events that get covered in the news. I am also aware of the opposite effect of PTSD on some individuals, which may actually be more prevalent and can be debilitating.

My relative seemed to deal with his 9/11 experience quite well, but, a few years later, something triggered the memory of the event in his mind, and he retreated to his bed, basically not wanting to leave it. Then he began to worry about all sorts of illnesses that he might have contracted because of his exposure to all the toxic substances of 9/11. He was becoming crippled in the sense that he could not go to work and when he did he couldn't really perform well. He was overcome with worry and fear. He withdrew into a cocoon, unable to function during the day and trembling every night, unable to sleep. With medication and therapy, he soon recovered. He was lucky. We all consider ourselves lucky that he has recovered so well. He did have some very minor setbacks but he was able to control them and they are now non existent. The horror of his first experience has never returned, fortunately.

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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pen21 wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. It brought to mind the suffering of our own soldiers today, in so many fields of battle, and gave me a broader understanding of how they might be capable of doing some horrible things as a result of their trauma. It made me want to forgive them even more, for any transgressions we might learn about, because they have truly suffered for all of us. We make them killing machines and then object when the lines blur for them, after so much hardship. I don't think they need trials and punishment, I think they need to be rehabilitated back into society so they can learn to accept our norms again, not the norms of the battlefield. My heart broke for Quinn as it breaks for the under appreciated men and women in our own armed forces.

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This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

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So many people only think of PTSD as violence... living with victim(s) of PTSD on a daily basis, I know for a fact that for many many people PTSD is just the opposite.  It de-humanizes them and takes them to zero.  I think Quinn is a wonderful example of this type of PTSD and I am so glad to see Chris write a story that showcases this (whether or not this was his intention).  

The withdrawl from humanity and desocialization it just as dehibilitating as the violent form.  Without treatment and help and support from friends and family this type of person drops off the rolls and disappears into the cracks of society.  They are the hobos/vagrants that we find dead of unknown causes in the alleys and along the byways.  

It's almost over-whelming to think that men of every war back to the Trojans and beyond have suffered from this very problem and we are just getting a handle on acknowledging it and trying to address this condition in our soldiers coming back from war.

Muse

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[thewanderingjew]

When I first read about the murder scene, I was impressed with the author's ability to convey so much with so little. The scene is brief and catches you by surprise, in the same way that the horror caught Quinn's father by surprise. I supposed that they all froze for the moment in shock and then Quinn ran off so quickly, there was just no time to ask, "what happened?" So it just appeared to them that, since he ran, he was guilty of performing such a heinous act. It is surprising, though, that his guilt was so all consuming and no one ever even thought he might be innocent. Then again, whom could they accuse if not Quinn. He was the obvious, available target. How Mary maintained her sanity, with the loss of her daughter and the absence of her son, speaks to her strength as a woman of those times. They were under the thumb of the men in their lives and had little independence, and, therefore, did not voice much independent thought.

I am reading a book, right now, called "Blue Ayslum" which is about a woman who was too outspoken and too independent, who was sent to a lunatic asylum by her husband for those crimes. She had no rights, not even the right to notify her own family of what was happening to her. Women were property. Women have come a long way, but still, it is hard to imagine our history of inhumanity to man "and woman", even in this day and age.

[dhaupt]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

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You are quite right.. PTSD should not be thought of as a violent reaction, it is just that those are the events that get covered in the news. I am also aware of the opposite effect of PTSD on some individuals, which may actually be more prevalent and can be debilitating.

My relative seemed to deal with his 9/11 experience quite well, but, a few years later, something triggered the memory of the event in his mind, and he retreated to his bed, basically not wanting to leave it. Then he began to worry about all sorts of illnesses that he might have contracted because of his exposure to all the toxic substances of 9/11. He was becoming crippled in the sense that he could not go to work and when he did he couldn't really perform well. He was overcome with worry and fear. He withdrew into a cocoon, unable to function during the day and trembling every night, unable to sleep. With medication and therapy, he soon recovered. He was lucky. We all consider ourselves lucky that he has recovered so well. He did have some very minor setbacks but he was able to control them and they are now non existent. The horror of his first experience has never returned, fortunately.

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TWJ, it's good that your relative recieved and was helped by treatment.

I was just thinking about the different ways that this effect of war has been presented. I remember my grandfather who fought in WWII and my mom told me that when he came home he would never talk about the war, it wasn't until after he died that they found a diary of sorts that he kept that told of his inner most thoughts and fears, he fought in the Pacific in the Army.

And you're all right about PTSD not necessarily being a violent reaction although thanks to the news and all the instant reactionary media out there the violent reaction is usually what's up front and center and it's easy to get lost in the frenzy.

[Fozzie]

I haven’t read other people’s comments yet.  I wanted to put my thoughts down first, before doing so.

I immediately wondered what the quote at the front of the book signified.  “Every angel is terrible.”  It’s not a quote I am familiar with, and seems contradictory, so it caught my attention.  I’ll be coming back to that quote later, after reading the book.

The prologue pulled me right into the book!  As a reader, I was right there when Quinn and Sarah were discovered, but then we learned Quinn was never found, and ended up missing in action in World War I.  I expected that the book would reveal what really happened that day between him and Sarah.  The writing is wonderful and I couldn’t wait to read more.

Quinn seems to be a complex character, a survivor, a smart man.  I do worry that the violence he was forced into during the war might rear its ugly head again, especially since he is suffering flashbacks.

I read Wickett’s Remedy, by Myla Goldberg, a fictional story, but filled with truth about the flu epidemic at the end of World War I, so I am very familiar with it.  I highly recommend the book.

While I don’t relish the idea of anyone having the flu, I think the author had to give Mary the flu.  We are told she is the only one sympathetic to Quinn --- everyone else will kill him.  By having Mary isolated, the author is able to allow Quinn and Mary to interact, which appears to be essential for the story.  I wonder about Mary’s relationship with her husband also. 

It was all I could do to not continue reading the book past this first section, but I wanted to try to stay on schedule with the group so that my thoughts were fresh.  The book is written with careful suspense and tension, and enough mystery to keep the pages turning.  I suspect that once I read the next section of reading, I will have to go ahead and finish the book!

[Mountain_Muse]

Okay...help me out here, guys.  I am working on a mental picture of Quinn here.

Gentle giant doesn't describe him, because I didn't get an impression of him have any bulk or size to him.  In fact, I gathered that he had not outstanding physical features to him.... he was able to blend into the background.  The war and his injuries had left him gaunt and lean with a haunted look to his face that went back further than the war.

But his eyes were true windows to his soul and there you were able to see that his harsh outer cover belied the gentle man who resided within.  Chris has been giving us hints of the character of who the true Quinn is.  Can you add to this list?

• The nickname he earned during the war of "Meek".  There is such depth in that name
• His love and care of his  younger sister.  He doted on her.
• His bonding with that lamb that night around his campfire to seek solace.
• The fierce determination to continue sneaking in to tend to his mother in the face of potential capture.  He knew what needed to be done, but could do little if anything other than comfort for fear of being caught.  But the comfort of his presence was such great medicine.  (They say that the comfort of family and the power of touch for critically ill patients can make the difference between life and death.)
• ??????

Profile????  Definitely not that of someone capable of murder.  Even in his reflections of the war he didn't talk about his killing, only about being gassed and rescuing fellow soldiers.  

Input?

Muse

[thewanderingjew]

Regarding the color red, I looked up some other instances of it and found this explanation of it in Jane Eyre. http://voices.yahoo.com/what-does-color-red-symbolize-5557267.html The first paragraph was particularly interesting because of the parallels with Bereft. "The first color we notice in Jane Eyre is the color red. We are exposed to the this color when Jane Eyre is sent to the dreaded red-room after Jane defends herself from the physical abuse that young Master John bestows upon her." Then in the second paragraph" "It is in this room that Jane Eyre suffers a panic attack (to use the modern term), and imagines that a ghost is coming to get her. After trying to get out, and being refused exit from the room, Jane passes out. The implication of this event is that red represents uncontrolled emotions, including imaginative fancies." I never actually made note of the symbolism of color being used in books before, but it is interesting.

[Mountain_Muse]

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dhaupt wrote:

So then let's talk about Quinn's father- his character is only peripheral at this point but lets hear your thoughts on him as well  

Pardon the pun, but "I slept onf Quinn's father" overnight.  Been chewing on him all morning.  This guy has been bugging me.  What do we know about him and his background?  Not much, yet.

But for now we know that: he liked to go down to the "pub" and hang with the guys and listen to the latest news and new ideas.  Loved to try the newest trend and new fangled thing out there if he could.  In some ways he makes me think of ADHD, but without the high intellegence.  He had a stubborn streak in him.  Once he decided that "this is the way it is".  nothing or no one could change his mind.  It sounded like he tried all the newest "get rich quick" skemes for farming and always ended up going back to just farming, for they all failed.

Accept for the stubborn streak, I got the sense that Quinn showed no feeling of ill will nor great fondness for his father, nor did he indicate the relationship between the parents.

Based on the fact of the great extent that Dad was going to, to get care for Mom and would sit outside her window and visit with her for hours each day and research for new "cures" and things to help her get well is indicative of his fondness for his wife.  They had in fact survived the hardest of events that a  marriage could go through -- the violent death of a child, supposedly at the hands of another child of their own.  

Hopefully the coming chapters will reveal more of this relationship and of the parents and who they are.

I'll close this morning with Quinn's first visit to Sarah's grave "His immense grief was precisely why he had not visited until now."

I can recall my first visit to my grandmother's grave.  She was my mentor, my best friend, and the most important person in my world.  I had not cried during the days before her funeral nor at the gathering and funeral itself.  It wasn't until we were leaving to go home and went by the gravesite to make sure all was in order that I knelt by her grave and the grief and loss could no longer be contained.  It bubbled up and overflowed in great wells of sobs and unconsolable grief  for I had lost the person who had stood by me all my life.  The one person who I could turn to and would understand and listen.

It was there that I had to acknowledge that her going was final, that all was changed and life had to go on.  Even though this was years later...this is much what Quinn was having to face and deal with.  This was his wall.  It is only from this point he could go forward.

Muse

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[Mountain_Muse]

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Great!!!  Fred brought two recent movies to mind:  The Sixth Sense  where red was key in the clues that the protagonist was dead.  I had to actually go back and rewatch the movie to find them all.  Also, by the same director, M. Night Shyamalan,  The Village, where the symbolism for evil and warning were always delivered in the color red.

Also, TWJ, have you ever read the book  The Red Tent?  It is a novel set in ancient Judea revolving around the Women's Tent which is called "the Red Tent".  There was and continues to be a lot of symbolism in the color Red through out history.  

thewanderingjew wrote:
Regarding the color red, I looked up some other instances of it and found this explanation of it in Jane Eyre. http://voices.yahoo.com/what-does-color-red-symbolize-5557267.html The first paragraph was particularly interesting because of the parallels with Bereft. "The first color we notice in Jane Eyre is the color red. WGe are exposed to the this color when Jane Eyre is sent to the dreaded red-room after Jane defends herself from the physical abuse that young Master John bestows upon her." Then in the second paragraph" "It is in this room that Jane Eyre suffers a panic attack (to use the modern term), and imagines that a ghost is coming to get her. After trying to get out, and being refused exit from the room, Jane passes out. The implication of this event is that red represents uncontrolled emotions, including imaginative fancies." I never actually made note of the symbolism of color being used in books before, but it is interesting.

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[Fozzie]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I wonder if the author meant for his book to explore the danger of secrets and the misunderstandings that can arise from keeping them?

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Great question and one I am going to keep in mind while reading.  I wonder how keeping the secret he has has affected Quinn?  I wonder if Mary has secrets?  I bet she does!