Week One Discussion of Bereft

[Mountain_Muse]

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dhaupt wrote:

Great responses everyone

there was a lot to talk about in the book so if you want to bring something up besides what's asked please do.

I want to allude to the sanitation/preventative measures that were taken at the end of and during WWI, on page 15 this really struck me:

"At North Head quarantine station, he stood with the rest of the men to be hosed down.-----Armless, many of them:legless: boys and men spattered with burn marks and coin shaped scars.-----

Their luggage was fumigated and afterwards they were forced to inhale a solution of zinc sulfate to clear their lungs and prevent influenza from taking hold."

Almost the cure being more deadly than the disease plus the ravages of war and I think that Chris did a marvelous job bringing it to us. 

In my review i said that it often reminded me of a much longer book and this is one of the reasons, in just a few paragraphs he conveys what might take other authors a whole chapter and does it so that his audience can really take it in.

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Deb,

Couldn't agree more with you.  That fumigation scene sickened me.  The other scene that left me heart sick was the scene of Quinn's mother's room and his description of it and of her.  I wanted to rip down the curtains open the windows so bad.  But unfortunately, there was no one to listen to me, as I wasn't i the book...so I had to sit back and continue reading as an observer only.

Muse

[whiteginger]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

Great responses everyone

there was a lot to talk about in the book so if you want to bring something up besides what's asked please do.

Edie:  What?  You think we're meek or something?    

I want to allude to the sanitation/preventative measures that were taken at the end of and during WWI, on page 15 this really struck me:

"At North Head quarantine station, . . . "

Edie:  (same scene, the lines which caught my attemtion) "After everything, the sight of naked men still shocked him.  Their unguarded selves were delicate . . . . men are nothing when thrown into the machine of history."  I jotted a note in the margin about the frailty and insignificance of man!

In my review i said that it often reminded me of a much longer book and this is one of the reasons, in just a few paragraphs he conveys what might take other authors a whole chapter and does it so that his audience can really take it in.

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Deb,

Couldn't agree more with you.  . . . 

Muse

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Edie:  Complete agreement here, too!

[optic_i]

Week one
Bereft

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

Yes, I think the author wrote about shell-shock, or PTS, just as it would have happened. Quinn has vivid flash-backs and dreams of the war, to the point where he puts on his gas mask while in the woods near his mother's house. Then, he remembers the war is over and he is home.

What's great about the author's writing is the his ability to create an ethereal setting for moments like this in the story.

5. Do you know more about this time because of it

I knew what it was from other wars, but set in WWI, he has also been gassed in the trenches in France, a weapon abolished after WWI, until Saddam Hussein used it against the Kurds.

6. Quinn visits his mother without his father’s knowledge who is suffering and near death from the flu that is ravaging the whole world

7. Did Quinn’s visits with his mother enlighten you more

Yes, I was enlighten when Quinn visits his mom. He sees she is dying and is alone with her for the first time since he left. They needed the time to talk to each other alone, and he needed to tell her why he left. She also needed to talk to him, even though it was a shock for her to see him, because she was told he was killed in the war.
 

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[pen21]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. It brought to mind the suffering of our own soldiers today, in so many fields of battle, and gave me a broader understanding of how they might be capable of doing some horrible things as a result of their trauma. It made me want to forgive them even more, for any transgressions we might learn about, because they have truly suffered for all of us. We make them killing machines and then object when the lines blur for them, after so much hardship. I don't think they need trials and punishment, I think they need to be rehabilitated back into society so they can learn to accept our norms again, not the norms of the battlefield. My heart broke for Quinn as it breaks for the under appreciated men and women in our own armed forces.

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This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

[pen21]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I wonder if the author meant for his book to explore the danger of secrets and the misunderstandings that can arise from keeping them?

We frequently come to false conclusions, because we don't know the whole truth. The book made me think about whether or not we have a true obligation to keep a secret if we know that harboring it can cause more pain and problems then the telling of it, which could solve many more. I thought about the practice of confession and the many secrets a man of G-d learns which he cannot repeaet, the lawyer protecting a client and the doctor a patient. What is morally correct? Do we allow many to suffer because of the secret of one lost soul? It is a conundrum, I  think.

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This is a good point. I wondered about the town gossip and the town people added more detail to the story over the years. It reminded me of how the news media can take a story and not let it go. The news media just inundates us with trivial detail and interviews where I just want to hear the facts.

[Mountain_Muse]

The second time Quinn went back to spend time with his mother (Mary) they spent time reminescing about the past, about the good times.  It was during this interlude that we learned about who Mary was.  She was a wonderful match for her creative and vibrant husband.  She was widely read and didn't just read, but read to her family.  She was also a wonderful story teller and capitvated her children with stories.  She even turned the boring lessons into wonderful tales that captivated their interest.

But going back and looking once again at the rememberances of Quinn's father, even though he considered himself "forethinking" and was always wanting to try the newest contraption and idea, he was also superstitious.  One note that Quinn made was that once an idea lodged in his head and he locked on it he did not let it go...he was stubborn in that way.  

I have a feeling that this is going to play (in a major way) into how he reacts to the re-appearance of his son and his willingness to believe in Quinn's innocence after all these years of believing so completely in his guilt.

I have wondered at the ability of a person to be so open to new ideas, but at the same time be so closed to truth...hmmmmmm sounds like some politicians....but we won't go there... it's not part of this book (after all this is New Zealand).;

Muse

[pen21]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

TWJ had done such a great job of starting the conversation on several of the questions, that I want to continue on the same threads.  I may then go back to several of the other questions.

Muse

thewanderingjew wrote:

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. It brought to mind the suffering of our own soldiers today, in so many fields of battle, and gave me a broader understanding of how they might be capable of doing some horrible things as a result of their trauma. It made me want to forgive them even more, for any transgressions we might learn about, because they have truly suffered for all of us. We make them killing machines and then object when the lines blur for them, after so much hardship. I don't think they need trials and punishment, I think they need to be rehabilitated back into society so they can learn to accept our norms again, not the norms of the battlefield. My heart broke for Quinn as it breaks for the under appreciated men and women in our own armed forces.

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I agree with TWJ that Chris did a wonderful job of helping us to see and feel the effects of PTSD through the eyes of Quinn.  But I think Quinn's PTSD did not start with WWI, it started with the death of his sister.  There can be no more tramatic event in one's life than the violent death of a loved one.  

Based on the memories that Quinn shared with us about his relationship with Mary and also with the third party observations of his relationship with Mary, they were very, very close.  Some even referred to them as being unnaturally close.  (We'll address this later).  

I think Quinn's flight at her death was a "fight or flight" reaction and he was in a total state of shock when his Dad came upon the scene.  With out going into my suppositions (later question), I think this was the start of his PTSD.  I feel that this is supported by the statement he made about the scene when he was on-board ship and through his medal out to sea.  The medal for bravery had no meaning for him because he did not do anything out of bravery..."He cared not a jot for his own safety:  that was not the same as bravery".  He also talks about how withdrawn and remote he was to the others in his platoon from the beginning of the war, so much so that they gave him the nickname "Meek".    These are all symptoms of PTSD.  What most people don't realize is that PTSD is not limited to "postal or violent" behavior, a person with PTSD can also go to zero and totally withdrawl from the world.

I hope Fred has more to say about this one :-)

Muse

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I hadn't thought about his sisters death as the trigger for his PTSD. That does make sense to me.

[pen21]

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whiteginger wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

The red button on Sarah's dress intrigued me. Historically, the color red and red amulets have been used to ward off evil.  It is mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Esau and Jacob, Perez and Zerah, also with Rahab. There are many other instances. Did anyone else notice this and wonder?

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TWJ You simply AMAZE me and I'm so glad that you're with us.

I never put the red button with that at all, but I wondered why the author made it stand out so much.

and now you've given me an ah ha moment

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I noted the red button and thought it was just a colorful (no pun intended) detail.  I didn't realize the biblical symbolism.  Hmm does that also explain the red coat on the little girl in Shindler's List? 

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I am glad we have someone thinking of these details. Thanks TWJ. I can learn so much more from discussing a book. For the first day I will say we are having a great discussion. I do miss First Look. Thanks Deb for doing this.

[Mountain_Muse]

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pen21 wrote:

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whiteginger wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

The red button on Sarah's dress intrigued me. Historically, the color red and red amulets have been used to ward off evil.  It is mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Esau and Jacob, Perez and Zerah, also with Rahab. There are many other instances. Did anyone else notice this and wonder?

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TWJ You simply AMAZE me and I'm so glad that you're with us.

I never put the red button with that at all, but I wondered why the author made it stand out so much.

and now you've given me an ah ha moment

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I noted the red button and thought it was just a colorful (no pun intended) detail.  I didn't realize the biblical symbolism.  Hmm does that also explain the red coat on the little girl in Shindler's List? 

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I am glad we have someone thinking of these details. Thanks TWJ. I can learn so much more from discussing a book. For the first day I will say we are having a great discussion. I do miss First Look. Thanks Deb for doing this.

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I, too love the little details.  That is soooo what makes or breaks a good read -- the attention to detail for the period.  Chris excels at this and it is much appreciated.  

Also, I agree to double Kudos to Deb for this First Look opportunity.  I doooo miss them so much.  

Muse

[elaine_hf]

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Wow, so many great thoughts on this one already - and I thought I was going to show up right on time...

Ah, well, here are a few of my thoughts to add in the mix.

2. My first thoughts on Quinn? He has had a rough life, but it isn't like it was an easy one prior to the death of his sister. It sounds like a hardscrabble kind of existence in that part of Australia, but the love and warmth of his family kept it from being impossible. Once the gold rush came and went, families stayed behind in Flint to eke out some kind of existence, and Quinn's family was no exception. Then 'the event' happened, and Quinn took off. Why? He was young, he was scared, upset about the death of his sister, he knew it looked bad for him, and I think that he was afraid of the real killer. (I am assuming here, of course, that he really wasn't the killer, as he states). And in the mind of a young person, those fears easily grow and multiply until they take over, so I think he felt that he couldn't return. His mother states that once something is lodged in her husband's mind it stays there, and he must have observed that for himself, so how could he expect justice when it seemed clear that his own father thought him guilty? And if the real killer was someone in their town, perhaps someone older and maybe even making threats, what could he return to? In his mind, and probably in reality, it was his young word against a more authoritative word. When he ran off, his life had to be difficult, but I think he was used to difficult circumstances.

3. I was aware of the flu epidemic, but when it's presented in a way that illustrates its effects on an individual or a group of people, it brings it home for me in a way that I can relate to. So, now I feel like I am much more aware of the flu epidemic and how it affected people, vs just an academic knowledge. The author did a good job of bringing that information down to the personal level, in a way that we can experience it. So, in thinking about #8, I think that it was a good decision for one of Quinn's family members to have the flu; otherwise, it's still just a remote event, not one more 'close to home'. Particularly appropriate for his mother to have it, as she would be the 'glue' holding the family in close. His sister's death and his own disappearance started the 'dissolution' of the family, and now his mother's illness and probable death serve to potentially dissolve the remaining bonds of this family. 

9. My thoughts on this novel? I think that with some relatively spare but well-chosen words, a LOT of emotion has been expressed very clearly. And a lot of information has been passed along to the reader. I find that I rather quickly rallied in defense of Quinn, and sometimes have a hard time turning the page, knowing that there's a good chance that someone will want to hang him.

I have to give the other questions a little more thought. Thanks for a great start for the discussion of this book!

[Mountain_Muse]

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pen21 wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. It brought to mind the suffering of our own soldiers today, in so many fields of battle, and gave me a broader understanding of how they might be capable of doing some horrible things as a result of their trauma. It made me want to forgive them even more, for any transgressions we might learn about, because they have truly suffered for all of us. We make them killing machines and then object when the lines blur for them, after so much hardship. I don't think they need trials and punishment, I think they need to be rehabilitated back into society so they can learn to accept our norms again, not the norms of the battlefield. My heart broke for Quinn as it breaks for the under appreciated men and women in our own armed forces.

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This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

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So many people only think of PTSD as violence... living with victim(s) of PTSD on a daily basis, I know for a fact that for many many people PTSD is just the opposite.  It de-humanizes them and takes them to zero.  I think Quinn is a wonderful example of this type of PTSD and I am so glad to see Chris write a story that showcases this (whether or not this was his intention).  

The withdrawl from humanity and desocialization it just as dehibilitating as the violent form.  Without treatment and help and support from friends and family this type of person drops off the rolls and disappears into the cracks of society.  They are the hobos/vagrants that we find dead of unknown causes in the alleys and along the byways.  

It's almost over-whelming to think that men of every war back to the Trojans and beyond have suffered from this very problem and we are just getting a handle on acknowledging it and trying to address this condition in our soldiers coming back from war.

Muse

[optic_i]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

The second time Quinn went back to spend time with his mother (Mary) they spent time reminescing about the past, about the good times.  It was during this interlude that we learned about who Mary was.  She was a wonderful match for her creative and vibrant husband.  She was widely read and didn't just read, but read to her family.  She was also a wonderful story teller and capitvated her children with stories.  She even turned the boring lessons into wonderful tales that captivated their interest.

But going back and looking once again at the rememberances of Quinn's father, even though he considered himself "forethinking" and was always wanting to try the newest contraption and idea, he was also superstitious.  One note that Quinn made was that once an idea lodged in his head and he locked on it he did not let it go...he was stubborn in that way.  

I have a feeling that this is going to play (in a major way) into how he reacts to the re-appearance of his son and his willingness to believe in Quinn's innocence after all these years of believing so completely in his guilt.

I have wondered at the ability of a person to be so open to new ideas, but at the same time be so closed to truth...hmmmmmm sounds like some politicians....but we won't go there... it's not part of this book (after all this is New Zealand).;

Muse   

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I also wondered about Quinn's father, why he was so quick to believe that his son could murder his sister. Yes it looked bad But still how could he just hang out at the bar in town with the reporters and town folk and listen to them condemn his son. I know Mary didn't want him to tell her any details either. It just seemed to me they weren't trying to hard to talk to each other when their son needed them.

[writerfire]

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optic_i wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

The second time Quinn went back to spend time with his mother (Mary) they spent time reminescing about the past, about the good times.  It was during this interlude that we learned about who Mary was.  She was a wonderful match for her creative and vibrant husband.  She was widely read and didn't just read, but read to her family.  She was also a wonderful story teller and capitvated her children with stories.  She even turned the boring lessons into wonderful tales that captivated their interest.

But going back and looking once again at the rememberances of Quinn's father, even though he considered himself "forethinking" and was always wanting to try the newest contraption and idea, he was also superstitious.  One note that Quinn made was that once an idea lodged in his head and he locked on it he did not let it go...he was stubborn in that way.  

I have a feeling that this is going to play (in a major way) into how he reacts to the re-appearance of his son and his willingness to believe in Quinn's innocence after all these years of believing so completely in his guilt.

I have wondered at the ability of a person to be so open to new ideas, but at the same time be so closed to truth...hmmmmmm sounds like some politicians....but we won't go there... it's not part of this book (after all this is New Zealand).;

Muse   

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I also wondered about Quinn's father, why he was so quick to believe that his son could murder his sister. Yes it looked bad But still how could he just hang out at the bar in town with the reporters and town folk and listen to them condemn his son. I know Mary didn't want him to tell her any details either. It just seemed to me they weren't trying to hard to talk to each other when their son needed them.

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Odd I thought,  it was more like the father was talking himself into believing what he wanted or thought he seen. hmm.

[optic_i]

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writerfire wrote:

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optic_i wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

The second time Quinn went back to spend time with his mother (Mary) they spent time reminescing about the past, about the good times.  It was during this interlude that we learned about who Mary was.  She was a wonderful match for her creative and vibrant husband.  She was widely read and didn't just read, but read to her family.  She was also a wonderful story teller and capitvated her children with stories.  She even turned the boring lessons into wonderful tales that captivated their interest.

But going back and looking once again at the rememberances of Quinn's father, even though he considered himself "forethinking" and was always wanting to try the newest contraption and idea, he was also superstitious.  One note that Quinn made was that once an idea lodged in his head and he locked on it he did not let it go...he was stubborn in that way.  

I have a feeling that this is going to play (in a major way) into how he reacts to the re-appearance of his son and his willingness to believe in Quinn's innocence after all these years of believing so completely in his guilt.

I have wondered at the ability of a person to be so open to new ideas, but at the same time be so closed to truth...hmmmmmm sounds like some politicians...But we won't go there... It's not part of this book (after all this is New Zealand).;

Muse   

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I also wondered about Quinn's father, why he was so quick to believe that his son could murder his sister. Yes it looked bad But still how could he just hang out at the bar in town with the reporters and town folk and listen to them condemn his son. I know Mary didn't want him to tell her any details either. It just seemed to me they weren't trying to hard to talk to each other when their son needed them.

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Odd I thought,  it was more like the father was talking himself into believing what he wanted or thought he seen. hmm.

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Yes ! That's what I thought too. I thought he didn't like it when Quinn spent so much time with his sister.

Optic

[writerfire]

Like he wanted it different, wanted them apart, and when that happened he saw his chance and took it.

[christopherw]

Thanks for that comment. Not being much of a Bible reader, I hadn't actually realised the significance of the colour red when writing that portion of Bereft. In fact, the additon of the red button was quite late in the writing process. Or perhaps I should say that I hadn't consciously recognised the colour's significance. I also hadn't intended the colour to be repeated, as in the colour of the wristbands on the people on the train. You'd make a good editor with such an eye for detail!

[christopherw]

There is indeed fears of new pandemics. In fact the kill-rate of Spanish Flu was only around 2%, whereas the kill-rate of something like Avian Flu is around 50%. That, combined with modern air-travel, makes the likelihood of such a pandemic all the more frightening.

[christopherw]

That's a good comment. I had intended that Quinn's trauma begins with the murder of his sister and in fact he finds it difficult to mature much beyond the age at which this occurs. And I agree with you that those returning from war need to be looked after - something that rarely happened in the case of WWI. Many men continued to suffer (from TB, from depression alcoholism etc) in the decades following WWI.

[christopherw]

Thanks for those comments. 'Ethereal' is certainly what I was aiming for in many scenes with Quinn and his flashbacks and dreams or hallucinations. Or are they?

[christopherw]

Wow! Very gratifying to have a reader so involved in the story. Thank you. I only hope the remainder of the novel lives up to the first part for you. I had a wonderful time writing about The Spanish Flu, as I'd never really heard much about it before (and thought I had it to myself!). Again, I hadn't (consiously) considered the connection between the nickname 'Meek' and that Biblical quote about inheriting the Earth, although the lamb reference was intentional (sorry if you found it too much). Shows how much those fables have entered the subconscious.