Week One Discussion of Bereft

[whiteginger]

* OMG!   OMG!   OMG!

I went to get my NOOK to look up a few quotes about Quinn's father.  I couldn't find Bereft  in my NST library.  I was annoyed.    I picked up my NC, the first place I download every new title.  Bereft  was not in the NC library either or sideloaded on the SD card.  I panicked!  I must have deleted it somehow!. . .  then . . . I saw the paperback lying quietly on my desk.  

I used to think there would be fewer thrills in life as I got older, but "senior moments" like this really get my heart racing!  

* Completely Off Topic

[dhaupt]

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whiteginger wrote:

* OMG!   OMG!   OMG!

I went to get my NOOK to look up a few quotes about Quinn's father.  I couldn't find Bereft  in my NST library.  I was annoyed.    I picked up my NC, the first place I download every new title.  Bereft  was not in the NC library either or sideloaded on the SD card.  I panicked!  I must have deleted it somehow!. . .  then . . . I saw the paperback lying quietly on my desk.  

I used to think there would be fewer thrills in life as I got older, but "senior moments" like this really get my heart racing!  

* Completely Off Topic

---

know exactly what you mean- sometimes this is what my motto should be

• 

[Mountain_Muse]

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whiteginger wrote:

* OMG!   OMG!   OMG!

I went to get my NOOK to look up a few quotes about Quinn's father.  I couldn't find Bereft  in my NST library.  I was annoyed.    I picked up my NC, the first place I download every new title.  Bereft  was not in the NC library either or sideloaded on the SD card.  I panicked!  I must have deleted it somehow!. . .  then . . . I saw the paperback lying quietly on my desk.  

I used to think there would be fewer thrills in life as I got older, but "senior moments" like this really get my heart racing!  

* Completely Off Topic

---

Muse

[optic_i]

---

Week one
Bereft

How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

I thought it was perfect for the story, although sad. Mary needed closure before she died and this way they had the time they needed to talk about what happened to Quinn after he left. This was his last chance to tell someone who would listen.

What are your feelings about Mary

I thought Mary was a good person that had to go through the worst that could happen to a family. I did think everyone sheltered her; even Quinn was reluctant to go to her when his sister was murdered. I also thought she should have asked questions as to what happened to both her children, and I'm hoping she gets the answers she needs before she dies.

What do you think of the novel so far

I kept going back and forth in the beginning with Quinn. Should he have stayed or should he have run? Ultimately, I decided he was right to run. He was in shock when his sister was murdered. I think the evidence would have been overwhelmingly against him. What he needed was someone to believe in him and he didn't have that. The folks of Flint would have been outraged, and mob mentality would have ruled. With no one to stop them, they would have hanged him.

So far, I love this novel's atmospheric prose and original story. It starts with a violent child murder, WWI in Europe, and a global epidemic. Can't get much worse than that. And yet, for that very reason, it kept me wondering what was going to happen next.

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[elaine_hf]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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pen21 wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

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This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

---

So many people only think of PTSD as violence... living with victim(s) of PTSD on a daily basis, I know for a fact that for many many people PTSD is just the opposite.  It de-humanizes them and takes them to zero.  I think Quinn is a wonderful example of this type of PTSD and I am so glad to see Chris write a story that showcases this (whether or not this was his intention).  

The withdrawl from humanity and desocialization it just as dehibilitating as the violent form.  Without treatment and help and support from friends and family this type of person drops off the rolls and disappears into the cracks of society.  They are the hobos/vagrants that we find dead of unknown causes in the alleys and along the byways.  

It's almost over-whelming to think that men of every war back to the Trojans and beyond have suffered from this very problem and we are just getting a handle on acknowledging it and trying to address this condition in our soldiers coming back from war.

Muse

---

I couldn't agree more, Muse. PTSD is not always related to violent behavior; my experience with my late husband was just the opposite. For him, it was a tendency to the self-destructive but not violence towards others. For Quinn, it seems to have left him as a hollowed out shell. My semi-educated guess would be that it takes a form unique to the individual, drawing on their coping mechanisms already in place from younger days. (The educated part of that comes from my late hubby's therapist....) So I always kind of hate to see those war movies where the vets go crazy every time a car backfires, it just isn't always so. It IS refreshing to see another face of that terrible syndrome portrayed here, it makes Quinn so much more human, so vulnerable.

[whiteginger]

Thoughts on the father:

When Nathaniel finds Quinn with Sarah’s body, he is “speechless.”  Robert, the brother-in-law, appears and asks what happened “even though—what with the blood on Sarah’s thigh, the disarranged clothing, the knife in Quinn’s fist and the blue of his sister’s lips—Blind Freddy would have seen what had taken place.” I am not clear if this is Nathaniel’s thought at the moment or a commentary on the scene as it is later remembered. I actually think it is the later.

Someone else mentioned the possibility that Nathaniel may have been “talked into” believing Quinn was guilty.  That’s a possibility I haven’t ruled out even though I know Nathaniel later “professed” that he, like Robert, thought there was something unnatural in the closeness of the siblings. And I know he at one point forbade their playing together, an order which after two days they ignored.  Why did Nathaniel think the siblings were too close?  Mary didn’t.  Did someone else plant that idea in his mind?  If Nathaniel really thought Quinn was spending too much time playing with his sister, rather than working with his father and older brother, why did Nathaniel allow Quinn to disobey him?  Seems to me if this unnatural closeness had been Nathaniel’s own idea he would have been more insistent on the separation.  We do that Nathaniel stubbornly holds on to his ideas.   

It bothered me that Nathaniel "[sniffs] his good riddance and [goes] about his business" when the family receives the telegram that Quinn is MIA and presumed dead.  Then I realized that he has been living with the grief of losing a child (really two children--he lost Quinn that day, too) and the rumors and inuendo of having a son who isa  murderer for seven years.  This is probably his way of coping. 

[Mountain_Muse]

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elaine_hf wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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pen21 wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

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This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

---

So many people only think of PTSD as violence... living with victim(s) of PTSD on a daily basis, I know for a fact that for many many people PTSD is just the opposite.  It de-humanizes them and takes them to zero.  I think Quinn is a wonderful example of this type of PTSD and I am so glad to see Chris write a story that showcases this (whether or not this was his intention).  

The withdrawl from humanity and desocialization it just as dehibilitating as the violent form.  Without treatment and help and support from friends and family this type of person drops off the rolls and disappears into the cracks of society.  They are the hobos/vagrants that we find dead of unknown causes in the alleys and along the byways.  

It's almost over-whelming to think that men of every war back to the Trojans and beyond have suffered from this very problem and we are just getting a handle on acknowledging it and trying to address this condition in our soldiers coming back from war.

Muse

---

I couldn't agree more, Muse. PTSD is not always related to violent behavior; my experience with my late husband was just the opposite. For him, it was a tendency to the self-destructive but not violence towards others. For Quinn, it seems to have left him as a hollowed out shell. My semi-educated guess would be that it takes a form unique to the individual, drawing on their coping mechanisms already in place from younger days. (The educated part of that comes from my late hubby's therapist....) So I always kind of hate to see those war movies where the vets go crazy every time a car backfires, it just isn't always so. It IS refreshing to see another face of that terrible syndrome portrayed here, it makes Quinn so much more human, so vulnerable.

---

It has been much the same here.  We have been dealing with it for 20 plus years.  Fred is reading this book with me.  He has dealt with it on a first person level.  Though not posting to the board hisself, he is following our read very closely and agrees that Quinn is definitely a major victim of PTSD.  Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll chime in before things are over.  It would be great to hear his point of view, as he can see through Quinn's eyes more so than many of us.

Muse

[optic_i]

Nathaniel  Quinn's father,

I have had my doubts about him since the beginning I thought his view of Quinn disturbing. He liked Quinn well enough when he was a small boy. Then as Quinn grew older he started to wonder why he preferred his sister's company as opposed  to say his older brother William. This did not sit well with Nathaniel and he commented on it with contempt.. I thought perhaps he thought of Quinn as less then manly to do so. Something Nathaniel's manly buddies at the  " Mail Bar "  may have a problem with.  This is what Nathanial's attitude towards Quinn suggested to me. It's 1909 small town Austraila, Quinn would have been a target.

[dhaupt]

Well I'm about to close up shop for today and not taking laptop home again.

I'm not saying who done it

But do you think if there had not been mention about the relationship between Quinn and Sarah being "odd" that there would have been a question about his guilt

Have a great evening everyone and I'll see you tomorrow.

[thewanderingjew]

Don't worry, you are in good company, lol! We all have those moments. Haven't you ever looked for the glasses sitting on top of your head?

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whiteginger wrote:

* OMG!   OMG!   OMG!

I went to get my NOOK to look up a few quotes about Quinn's father.  I couldn't find Bereft  in my NST library.  I was annoyed.    I picked up my NC, the first place I download every new title.  Bereft  was not in the NC library either or sideloaded on the SD card.  I panicked!  I must have deleted it somehow!. . .  then . . . I saw the paperback lying quietly on my desk.  

I used to think there would be fewer thrills in life as I got older, but "senior moments" like this really get my heart racing!  

* Completely Off Topic

---

[pen21]

---

whiteginger wrote:

* OMG!   OMG!   OMG!

I went to get my NOOK to look up a few quotes about Quinn's father.  I couldn't find Bereft  in my NST library.  I was annoyed.    I picked up my NC, the first place I download every new title.  Bereft  was not in the NC library either or sideloaded on the SD card.  I panicked!  I must have deleted it somehow!. . .  then . . . I saw the paperback lying quietly on my desk.  

I used to think there would be fewer thrills in life as I got older, but "senior moments" like this really get my heart racing!  

* Completely Off Topic

---

Thank you for sharing. Believe me I have had moments like that.

[christopherw]

---

optic_i wrote:

---

Week one
Bereft

How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

I thought it was perfect for the story, although sad. Mary needed closure before she died and this way they had the time they needed to talk about what happened to Quinn after he left. This was his last chance to tell someone who would listen.

What are your feelings about Mary

I thought Mary was a good person that had to go through the worst that could happen to a family. I did think everyone sheltered her; even Quinn was reluctant to go to her when his sister was murdered. I also thought she should have asked questions as to what happened to both her children, and I'm hoping she gets the answers she needs before she dies.

What do you think of the novel so far

I kept going back and forth in the beginning with Quinn. Should he have stayed or should he have run? Ultimately, I decided he was right to run. He was in shock when his sister was murdered. I think the evidence would have been overwhelmingly against him. What he needed was someone to believe in him and he didn't have that. The folks of Flint would have been outraged, and mob mentality would have ruled. With no one to stop them, they would have hanged him.

So far, I love this novel's atmospheric prose and original story. It starts with a violent child murder, WWI in Europe, and a global epidemic. Can't get much worse than that. And yet, for that very reason, it kept me wondering what was going to happen next.

---

 "it kept me wondering what was going to happen next." . Nothing  a novelist loves more than someone wondering what's going to happen next! Glad you're enjoying it.

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[christopherw]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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elaine_hf wrote:

---

Mountain_Muse wrote:

---

pen21 wrote:

---

thewanderingjew wrote:

---

This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

---

So many people only think of PTSD as violence... living with victim(s) of PTSD on a daily basis, I know for a fact that for many many people PTSD is just the opposite.  It de-humanizes them and takes them to zero.  I think Quinn is a wonderful example of this type of PTSD and I am so glad to see Chris write a story that showcases this (whether or not this was his intention).  

The withdrawl from humanity and desocialization it just as dehibilitating as the violent form.  Without treatment and help and support from friends and family this type of person drops off the rolls and disappears into the cracks of society.  They are the hobos/vagrants that we find dead of unknown causes in the alleys and along the byways.  

It's almost over-whelming to think that men of every war back to the Trojans and beyond have suffered from this very problem and we are just getting a handle on acknowledging it and trying to address this condition in our soldiers coming back from war.

Muse

---

I couldn't agree more, Muse. PTSD is not always related to violent behavior; my experience with my late husband was just the opposite. For him, it was a tendency to the self-destructive but not violence towards others. For Quinn, it seems to have left him as a hollowed out shell. My semi-educated guess would be that it takes a form unique to the individual, drawing on their coping mechanisms already in place from younger days. (The educated part of that comes from my late hubby's therapist....) So I always kind of hate to see those war movies where the vets go crazy every time a car backfires, it just isn't always so. It IS refreshing to see another face of that terrible syndrome portrayed here, it makes Quinn so much more human, so vulnerable.

---

It has been much the same here.  We have been dealing with it for 20 plus years.  Fred is reading this book with me.  He has dealt with it on a first person level.  Though not posting to the board hisself, he is following our read very closely and agrees that Quinn is definitely a major victim of PTSD.  Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll chime in before things are over.  It would be great to hear his point of view, as he can see through Quinn's eyes more so than many of us.

Muse

---

I agree that PTSD - as it's now known - is very much a part of Quinns' character. Check out Youtube footage of soldiers suffering 'shell-shock' and you'll be truly horrified. Some of these men endured shelling for months on end while living in shallow, rat-infested trenches. Here in Australia it is ANZAC Day today - the day we remember our soldiers who have fought and died in the many wars of the 20th and 21st centuries...

[Mountain_Muse]

Chris, 

Thank  you for your comments.  I will definitely be checking out the site.  I have never heard of that holiday.  I will also check out the videos on shell shocked soldiers.  Those will definitely be educational.  (I watched some of the early released Nazi concentration camp footage before they were allowed for general population viewing back in the 70's as a part of a psychology class in college...those were the hardest videos I've ever sat through.  These can't be any worse.)

Muse

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christopherw wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

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It has been much the same here.  We have been dealing with it for 20 plus years.  Fred is reading this book with me.  He has dealt with it on a first person level.  Though not posting to the board hisself, he is following our read very closely and agrees that Quinn is definitely a major victim of PTSD.  Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll chime in before things are over.  It would be great to hear his point of view, as he can see through Quinn's eyes more so than many of us.

Muse

---

I agree that PTSD - as it's now known - is very much a part of Quinns' character. Check out Youtube footage of soldiers suffering 'shell-shock' and you'll be truly horrified. Some of these men endured shelling for months on end while living in shallow, rat-infested trenches. Here in Australia it is ANZAC Day today - the day we remember our soldiers who have fought and died in the many wars of the 20th and 21st centuries...

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[pen21]

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christopherw wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

---

elaine_hf wrote:

---

Mountain_Muse wrote:

---

pen21 wrote:

---

thewanderingjew wrote:

---

This PTSD aspect of the novel seemed very relevant today as we have so many national guard members returning home from duty overseas. I think that recognizing and understanding PTSD has come a long ways but we still have a lot to learn.

---

So many people only think of PTSD as violence... living with victim(s) of PTSD on a daily basis, I know for a fact that for many many people PTSD is just the opposite.  It de-humanizes them and takes them to zero.  I think Quinn is a wonderful example of this type of PTSD and I am so glad to see Chris write a story that showcases this (whether or not this was his intention).  

The withdrawl from humanity and desocialization it just as dehibilitating as the violent form.  Without treatment and help and support from friends and family this type of person drops off the rolls and disappears into the cracks of society.  They are the hobos/vagrants that we find dead of unknown causes in the alleys and along the byways.  

It's almost over-whelming to think that men of every war back to the Trojans and beyond have suffered from this very problem and we are just getting a handle on acknowledging it and trying to address this condition in our soldiers coming back from war.

Muse

---

I couldn't agree more, Muse. PTSD is not always related to violent behavior; my experience with my late husband was just the opposite. For him, it was a tendency to the self-destructive but not violence towards others. For Quinn, it seems to have left him as a hollowed out shell. My semi-educated guess would be that it takes a form unique to the individual, drawing on their coping mechanisms already in place from younger days. (The educated part of that comes from my late hubby's therapist....) So I always kind of hate to see those war movies where the vets go crazy every time a car backfires, it just isn't always so. It IS refreshing to see another face of that terrible syndrome portrayed here, it makes Quinn so much more human, so vulnerable.

---

It has been much the same here.  We have been dealing with it for 20 plus years.  Fred is reading this book with me.  He has dealt with it on a first person level.  Though not posting to the board hisself, he is following our read very closely and agrees that Quinn is definitely a major victim of PTSD.  Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll chime in before things are over.  It would be great to hear his point of view, as he can see through Quinn's eyes more so than many of us.

Muse

---

I agree that PTSD - as it's now known - is very much a part of Quinns' character. Check out Youtube footage of soldiers suffering 'shell-shock' and you'll be truly horrified. Some of these men endured shelling for months on end while living in shallow, rat-infested trenches. Here in Australia it is ANZAC Day today - the day we remember our soldiers who have fought and died in the many wars of the 20th and 21st centuries...

---

I am glad that Australia has ANZAC Day for your soldiers. I think it is important to remember those that have stood up and made a difference in the world.

[1AnneB]

Hi Everyone - Sorry I'm late to the party, but just put in 2 ,12 hour days - back to back. No time to do anything else but eat & sleep...

First thoughts

1. In the first part of the novel we get a pretty good look at the Quinn of today and as he reminisces the Quinn of before as well

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn

The Quinn of before was a carefree boy, whose life was normal, though through his Mother, had a great knowledge of literature. The stories she had read to the children and ones that she made up, gave them a view of a world very different from their own, that seemed to give them the ability to imagine and create games for themselves.

The Quinn of today, is also a product of the former, but also of all that has happened since the murder, his escape and the war.

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919 Did you know about this

How well does the author tell us about it

I knew of the flu epidemic - history is sort of a thing for me, as well as hearing stories from my grandparents, about it.

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome Did he do a good job of this

5. Do you know more about this time because of it

The author's portrayal of Quinn's war experiences was quite good and quite vivid. The way that PTSD was handled gave me a real feeling of the way that Quinn was reacting.

6. Quinn visits his mother without his father’s knowledge who is suffering and near death from the flu that is ravaging the whole world

Did Quinn’s visits with his mother enlighten you more

7. How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

8. What are your feelings about Mary

I've combined my answers to the 3 questions above:

Quinn's visits to his mother gave us a real picture of how the community reacted to the murder and the flu. Although Mary seemed to be the only one who did not instantly believe that Quinn was guilty, part of that is the feeling of a mother for her child and part of it seemed to be almost an inherent feeling that he was incapable of hurting his sister.

Mary seems to be a product of the times - battered by her experiences and also battered by the life in Australia - a difficult place to live, then - and ultimately battered also by the flu.

What do you think of the novel so far

Since I've read the entire book, and now I'm re-reading the parts for discussion, I've found that I'm reacting a little differently - initially, I thought it started a little slowly, but now can appreciate the detail and description that is necessary to the story.

[aprilh]

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dhaupt wrote:

Well I'm about to close up shop for today and not taking laptop home again.

I'm not saying who done it

But do you think if there had not been mention about the relationship between Quinn and Sarah being "odd" that there would have been a question about his guilt

Have a great evening everyone and I'll see you tomorrow.

---

This is a great question and I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks. Nathaniel had always thought that Quinn's relationship with Sarah was odd, to the point where he forbid them to play together. This makes me wonder if he had seen something inappropriate occur between the two of them or if he just didn't like that Quinn did whatever Sarah asked of him. It seemed to me that it was the latter and he wanted his son to be more of a man and not let himself be bossed around by a girl. When Nathaniel found Sarah raped and murdered, with Quinn holding the knife, he jumped to the conclusion that Quinn was a murderer. Quinn running away and not returning only made him look guilty. I think if Nathaniel had never been suspicious of Quinn and Sarah's relationship that he would have given Quinn the benefit of the doubt or a least wanted to hear his son's side of the story. Obviously Quinn knew his father didn't approve of his relationship with Sarah, so when his father found them and was struck speechless, Quinn must have known exactly what his father was thinking, so he fled in fear. I think if Quinn would have felt that his father wasn't going to accuse him of murder that he would have stayed and defended himself.

[optic_i]

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dhaupt wrote:

Well I'm about to close up shop for today and not taking laptop home again.

I'm not saying who done it

But do you think if there had not been mention about the relationship between Quinn and Sarah being "odd" that there would have been a question about his guilt

Have a great evening everyone and I'll see you tomorrow.

---

I think it would have had the same outcome, even if  nothing was ever said . I think Quinn's father left no room in his mind for doubt. .

Optic 

[Mountain_Muse]

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aprilh wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

Well I'm about to close up shop for today and not taking laptop home again.

I'm not saying who done it

But do you think if there had not been mention about the relationship between Quinn and Sarah being "odd" that there would have been a question about his guilt

Have a great evening everyone and I'll see you tomorrow.

---

This is a great question and I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks. Nathaniel had always thought that Quinn's relationship with Sarah was odd, to the point where he forbid them to play together. This makes me wonder if he had seen something inappropriate occur between the two of them or if he just didn't like that Quinn did whatever Sarah asked of him. It seemed to me that it was the latter and he wanted his son to be more of a man and not let himself be bossed around by a girl. When Nathaniel found Sarah raped and murdered, with Quinn holding the knife, he jumped to the conclusion that Quinn was a murderer. Quinn running away and not returning only made him look guilty. I think if Nathaniel had never been suspicious of Quinn and Sarah's relationship that he would have given Quinn the benefit of the doubt or a least wanted to hear his son's side of the story. Obviously Quinn knew his father didn't approve of his relationship with Sarah, so when his father found them and was struck speechless, Quinn must have known exactly what his father was thinking, so he fled in fear. I think if Quinn would have felt that his father wasn't going to accuse him of murder that he would have stayed and defended himself.

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I went back to the prologue and reread the point where Quinn was "discovered" at the scene.  It was storming and after hours of search, Nathaniel (dad) finally stumbles upon Quinn and his dead sister.  Nathaniel is "speechless".  "The boy tried to appeal to his father but his words were drowned by a rumble of thunder."  Then enters "Uncle" Robert Dalton who blows and bellows and Quinn freaks and runs.....  the scene then closes to the mother.....  

On down, it references that "with the Walker family in  mourning, Robert Dalton took on the roll of unofficial chronicler of the event."  He was heard telling reporters and anyone else who would listen about the suspicious behavior between the brother and sister.  AHHHhhhh  From whence the spin on the story came.....hmmmmm.... then back to an earlier observation and question one of you had of was the unatural behavior between Quinn and Sarah Nathaniel's idea or was it planted there?  If it was his idea why did he let the enforcement of the "playing together ban" go away after a couple of days?

 It's sounding like "Spin control" to me.  And we thought "spin control" was limited to today's politics and politicians.  Lol...Hmmmmmmm

Just saying.  

Great observation Aprih!!

Muse

[dhaupt]

Great responses everyone

just an fyi i'll be opening that spoiler thread tomorrow

now another thing to think about,

right before we close the scene on part 1 Quinn recalls a trip with his friend to the psychic's parlor. I'd forgotten just how popular seances, mediums and the like were then and the craze apparently was global and I think it's very time accurate for Chris to put it in the story, shows great research on his part.

Did you know about the popularity